Enlightenment is for Everyone

[Water by the River]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Gamma frequencies are imaginary! No hehe I'm jocking .  

I already thought for a fraction of a second while reading this that you have gone of the deep end and converted to the fraction that fell in love with their own reflected image in certain ponds...  . Imaginary Pond and reflection of course.

18 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is interesting to go deeper and know all this. An example, I just drove 5 hours to face a business mess and 80% of the way has been joy and openness. This 1 year ago would have been rumination and stress. It is not meditation that has led me to this but observation and deconstruction and psychedelics, which have made it possible to break the wall/shield of the mental stream and open myself to myself. I have meditated hours a day for the last two years, but this has only been preparation. btw, 2 days ago I knew a guy who lives 5 minutes from my house who makes a changa transparent like crystal, I never tried changa. this, added to the information you have shared about dmt, opens up a new path of experimentation for me. Let's see where it leads

Really happy to hear.

>It is not meditation that has led me to this but observation and deconstruction and psychedelics, which have made it possible to break the wall/shield of the mental stream and open myself to myself.

I am really interested how that continues. Psychedelics, meditation, and intelligent deconstruction/contemplation of the separate self arisings/Gestalt (while not going falling for the trap  of the "I am God" Narcissm-Show of the separate-self declaring everything is just imagined), aiming for a Deep Identity Level Shift towards Truth, must be a powerful path.

While that path is probably not as hilarious for the readers as the Narcissm-show of the "its-all-imagined-anyway" club, it is a path with a heart. A path that actually leads somewhere very beautiful, that can bring freedom from the claws of the self-contraction of the separate self, instead of hugging these claws and declaring them "imagined". And hoping that the pain and suffering which are the nature of these claws magically disappears.

Bon voyage!

Water by the River 

[josemar]

@Water by the River I'm buying what you're selling ?, I never got to read Ken Wilber, but can you write a few words of what "thoughts" are in your opinion, do they play any role in any of this? Is focusing on discovering the true nature of thoughts valuable, or too reductionistic? Thanks.

Edited May 13, 2023 by josemar

[Breakingthewall]

33 minutes ago, josemar said:

few words of what "thoughts" are in your opinion, do they play any role in any of this? Is focusing on discovering the true nature of thoughts valuable, or too reductionistic? T

Although you have not asked me, I will tell you what I see. the separation, the duality, is created by the need to survive. that is to say, it seems that there are external agents that threaten and that promote your survival.

if you are a rat everything is simple: chase the cheese, run away from the cats. if you're a human...it's not simple. your survival is totally given by the group. you are not an individual, you are part of the hive. The maximum threat is: to be rejected. if they expel you from the tribe, terror, hunger and death.

the way to give cohesion to that hive is language. language is powerful, it communicates acceptance or rejection, life or death. Language, the messenger of survival, creates duality, the barrier between what you consider to be you and what is outside of you. you don't have to be talked to all the time, soon in your life you learn to talk to yourself. each word is a symbol, an image that says life or death in its millions of nuances. the constant mental flow creates a bubble that encapsulates your being, keeps you isolated within. you can't stop it because you are survival software in action.  what you can do is understand it. then, it becomes transparent. You see through the capsule.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, josemar said:

@Water by the River I'm buying what you're selling ?

Actually, I am in the lucky situation that I never will be needing to charge anything for the stuff I am selling. So technically, its not selling. More like annoying with meditation-propaganda...  .   And no, no rich parents 

Selling Water by the River is the title of a book and the statement of a Zen Master, meaning that  when one is talking about meditation/Enlightenment, one is sneakely "selling" the people what they already have/are: "Water by the River".

I went a bit over the top with the length of a posting I just made:

In that, concerning the nature of thoughts:

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system)

• Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon...
• If you look HOW the thoughts emerge,
  • (1) out of what they emerge,
  • (2) what they are,
  • (3) in what they move
  • (4) into what they disappear
    • ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something"
    • All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that".
    • and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste.
• What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also...
  • Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö".
  • Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness.
  • So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast.
    • You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves.
    • You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away.
    • At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence.
    • At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. 
      • Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I
        • don't control what thoughts emerge and
        • if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second?
        • good question... to be answered later.
• Outcome is: 
  • You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature.
  • you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom.
  • You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature.
  • At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way

 

And maybe one more perspective: Thoughts are subtle objects, appearing and "moving" in you. WIth practice, a certain directionality/movement gets intuited, as strange as that sounds.

Another subtle object is the mathmatical object of the square-root of minus 1, in mathematics called "i".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_unit

You can never see it, but it exists, as mathematical object. If you ever had to do alternating current calculation using complex numbers like i, as yours truly had to do quite some time ago , the usefulness of "i" and other stuff becomes apparent pretty fast.

So, "i" is real, but you can never see it. A subtle object. Can be understood, experienced, can be calculated with, has useful applications doing so in the "real" world. And you can never talk about i and doing the practical stuff with others who had the experience of understanding what i is.

And sorry in advance, but I can't avoid doing that   : For the all-is-imaginary-fanclub: Here you have "real"  imagined numbers ("i"). Here it is completely technically correct to talk about "it is all imaginary". Because who in his right mind would be strange enough to define the imaginary number i, the impossible square root of minus 1. The only thing I am waiting for is for one of the "all-is-imaginary-fanclub" to actually start doing calculations in the imaginary unit and complex number plane, and then "correctly" saying: It is all imaginary.

Sorry for the little disgression.

So what is "i"? A subtle object, floating in you like a thought. "i" is an object, some thoughts of you are already an object you can work with. Some are not, you look through them like a lense, a subjective arising. Meditation is making all (I-)thoughts and I-feelings also to objects you see moving within yourself. They move in you, but you are (not only) them....

If you know the nature of thoughts fully (their essence is Nothingness, or Infinite Empty Impersonal Consciousness), you would be enlightened and know and understand the true Nature both of yourself and Reality. The essence or nature of any appearance in the visual field can also be directly apprehended as the same Nothingness, the same Suchness of Reality. So it is well worth it... 

Selling Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Water by the River said:

am really interested how that continues. Psychedelics, meditation, and intelligent deconstruction/contemplation of the separate self arisings/Gestalt (while not going falling for the trap  of the "I am God" Narcissm-Show of the separate-self declaring everything is just imagined), aiming for a Deep Identity Level Shift towards Truth, must be a powerful path.

we will see. It is an absolutely blind path, it is immersing yourself in existence without any handles. without any goal except to dissolve into oneself. To let go everything is very difficult and scary, maybe impossible. But don't ot let go, is a jail. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

we will see. It is an absolutely blind path, it is immersing yourself in existence without any handles. without any goal except to dissolve into oneself. To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. 

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion.

>To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. 

I understand you very well.

Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). 

That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light.

What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted.

Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more.

So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure.

Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were.

Bon voyage! 

Water by the River

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River  

Interesting dream, after psychedelic maybe? But for me the hard thing is not letting go of this life and die I think, because until it happens, you are here. The difficult is letting go the need of the other people now, when alive. the need for other people is extremely deep. Other people are the illusion. They are in our mind , at least in mine, all time. The others are the big wall, the jail

Edited May 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River  

Interesting dream, after psychedelic maybe?

No, that dream just happened.

 

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River  

But for me the hard thing is not letting go of this life and die I think, because until it happens, you are here. The difficult is letting go the need of the other people now, when alive. the need for other people is extremely deep. Other people are the illusion. They are in our mind , at least in mine, all time. The others are the big wall, the jail

I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much.

Maybe because

• when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance).
• When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but
  • one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream.
  • You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did.
  • Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness.
  • That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. 
    • Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself".
    • Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other".
  • The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love.
  • Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall):
    • All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God.
      • The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining  functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber).
        • Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings.
      • The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance.
        • Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high.
          • On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away.
      • Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer -

 

I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"?

• Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience.
  • But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass.
• As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice
  • Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that.

Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream,  the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is...

• Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality.
• No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear.
• Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love
• Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom.
• Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom.
• But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4.

Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness...  

Selling Water by the River

Edited May 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

35 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4.

@Water by the River  

Exactly. the need of the other is enormous, every word that you articulate in your mind comes from the other. Without the other, you would be silent. are you? maybe you are. From what I read, you have great experience in spiritual work. complete dedication, like a monk? how, when, why? anyway the need of the other goes by degrees. In the maximum and sick degree, you take your self-esteem from the (imaginary) opinion of others towards you. In the healthiest degrees, you need others for the flow of love, mutual support, trust, give, between you and them. in both cases absolute solitude is the desert, the death of the soul. We have to be capable of absolute solitude, your mind in total silence, 40 days in the desert, in total silence, flowing, open. without that, all that we think about awakening is deceit imo , if you are still addicted to the others(I'm quite far from that but that's the goal).  here we are communicating right? to learn or out of necessity? In my case it's clear: addiction, even it's useful and necessary for now. The first step to overcome an addiction is to admit it

Edited May 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River  

 From what I read, you have great experience in spiritual work. complete dedication, like a monk? how, when, why? 

Normal full-time business career, married but no kids, and a hobby also... I was a bookworm for a long time, reading hundreds of books, with a focus on meditation/spiritual systems. I wanted to find the most efficient ones there are.

Considering what that brought into my life, I wasn't too unlucky doing that. It all can be done, though honestly I wouldn't be where I am at without the book that i shamelessly promote, "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown". You know, Selling Water by the River, and especially that book... . And other books from Mahamudra/Dzogchen also.

It is a very efficient system, with limited need for sitting meditation if done correctly. I used and still use most of the day off the pillow for meditation/mindfulness practice, or just staying in my True Being.

If no absolutely distracting mental work is necessary, one can use pretty much all day, even meetings and standard work to stay mindful in the sense of " Simultaneous Mind (nondual, 3. stage of Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste)" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind" (switching off the separate self, 4. stage of Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). That brings the momentum/time/hours in meditation that probably most of us need.

To be honest, I had to read the book a lot of times (at least stages 1-4 Mahamudra, Skill of Reckongition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste, Nonmeditation Yoga). At one point, I had to wait several years to understand the Yoga of Unelaboration, which is really hard to understand. A cycle of read, try, read again, understand a bit more, read again, even more, meditate, get certain states, read again, misunderstand, read again, understand, and so on.... But with progress and increasing meditation experience one can get what is described, and "go upwards in circles" of meditation experience -> understanding/realization -> reading more, understanding more of the system -> meditation exerpience -> understanding/realization and so on, n+1.

25 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River  

EIn the maximum and sick degree, you take your self-esteem from the (imaginary) opinion of others towards you. In the healthiest degrees, you need others for the flow of love, mutual support, trust, give, between you and them. in both cases absolute solitude is the desert, the death of the soul. We have to be capable of absolute solitude, your mind in total silence, 40 days in the desert, in total silence, flowing, open. without that, all that we think about awakening is deceit imo.  here we are communicating right? to learn or out of necessity?

Yes. In essence, one gets love from others, and self-esteem (aka validation with concepts), and safety/security.

Sure, at a certain stage of development one could go into the desert when the flow of love/bliss from ones True Core is fully on (It is a nice indicator to check how transcended the separate self really is). But to live a healthy and integrated life, why not take the love, validation of self-esteem from "others" on top? It also provides a good calibration to live a healthy, integrated and balanced relative life in society.

Doing the desert thing at some point is rather easy... Business Meetings is where the challenge is , Death by a-bit-less-intelligent-than-can-be-Powerpoint-presentations and meetings and so on...   Still working on that, and, admittingly,  having fun while doing so... 

Even the more or less Awake Ones live a more healthy and integrated life when integrating in a healthy way in society, or at least trying to. One can do the Ramana-thing of walking off into the wildness and forget eating a little bit. But why should one do it? If one has taken at least a little bit of compassion training/Boddhisattva-vow/whatever, one probably feels better living an integrated and wholesome life in society.

Selling Water by the River

[Inliytened1]

On 5/11/2023 at 4:44 PM, Breakingthewall said:

The number 1 problem of this work is to think that you are fully awake when you are 1% awake. You don't even realize what it means to be awake, how far you can go and how asleep you are, until you have broken many limits in your mind. 

Putting into percents is another mistake.   You either wake up from a dream or you don't.   There aren't percents of this.  There are different things you can learn about the dream you are dreaming - but awakening is Absolute. 

[Inliytened1]

@AlexNonymous6 this is an excellent post and I really commend you for the level of awakening and oneness you have experienced.   It is something beyond what 99.9 percent of this foolish population will ever understand.   But know this - had you gone through the final awakening you would know that others are a figment of your imagination and thus they must be glued to the dream.  If all others woke up you could not linger and persist here.  Your dream would dissolve.  You must have something real and concrete here - something that you can hold onto - and thus you dream that others believe in its realism.  This further solidifies its realism to you.   You cannot dare fathom how deep this goes, or how deep as God you will go to fool yourself.  If you take anything away from Gura - know that his lectures on self deception are probably the most essential. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Water by the River]

48 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Putting into percents is another mistake.   You either wake up from a dream or you don't.   There aren't percents of this.  There are different things you can learn about the dream you are dreaming - but awakening is Absolute. 

Agree, important point.

Since I am quoting already a lot today, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment, and quoting some passages from "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown" again. Maybe that is interesting for some.... Bold markings and [...] by yours truly.

THE OUTCOME: THE NATURE OF ENLIGHTENMENT
Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event, wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations. One implication of the term nonmeditation is that the "journey ends." There are no more stages.

Pema Karpo says,The journey ends. Going by stages stops. There are no stages that go anywhere else. You find the perfection of everything that came before, without stages. (PK, f. rib) There are no stages (sa med) beyond this point

...

a. Basis Enlightenment
The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away.

Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20).

Tilopa says: When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha.

The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space.

Basis enlightenment leads to a very "new view of the way the realized mind stays" (TN, p. 5 17). When the concept of individual consciousness or "mind" is finally eradicated, a profound rearrangement takes place.

Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience. Therefore the first moment of enlightenment is called basis enlightenment.

During the ordinary special-insight meditations the practitioner searched for certain knowledge within arising events of the ordinary mental continuum. During the extraordinary samadhi meditations the practitioner located the simultaneous mind as the source of certain knowledge. Now, with basis enlightenment, knowledge takes on a new epistemological locus of knowledge. Awakened wisdom comes forth but not in association with either the ordinary or the simultaneous mind. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness]has no basis. It is without coming Ong med) and without going ('song med), in that it does not arise from the seeming activity of the relative mental continuum. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] is self-originated (rang 'byung). It is simply there, and with basis enlightenment, stays there. Basis enlightenment is called, "wisdom beyond the world" (TN, p. 542)."

 

So also according to Mahamudra/Tibetan Buddhism, the Deep Identity Level Shift of Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment is sudden (contrary to the slowly ripening of Awakened Awareness before), self-evident, and there is no stage beyond it. Awake or not.

Other Traditions call the shifts that happen before that event "Awakenings", some even Enlightenments. But qualified Enlightenments, "smaller" Enlightenments, partial gradual "awakenings" refining the mindstream to make it conform to the Big Shift, awake or not. Its a question of choosing the words. But they tend to differentiate clearly between the final thing/Great Enlightenment/Waking Up, and the events before. 

I agree with Inliytened1 that if we call this Great Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment/ Waking Up, that one is either awake or not. Digital, either or. Before being awake, one can maybe postulate there are gradual changes/"Awakenings", preparing for the final big shift (called crossing over to Enlightenment, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra).  Or waking up, like in awake or not.

If one knows or has realized what one truly deeply is, one knows what one is, and also what everything else is and only can ever be. Awake or not. If one is not sure, one is still asleep/dreaming. Awakening n+1 ain't it....

Selling Water by the River

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[Inliytened1]

49 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Agree, important point.

Since I am quoting already a lot today, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment, and quoting some passages from "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown" again. Maybe that is interesting for some.... Bold markings and [...] by yours truly.

THE OUTCOME: THE NATURE OF ENLIGHTENMENT
Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event, wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations. One implication of the term nonmeditation is that the "journey ends." There are no more stages.

Pema Karpo says,The journey ends. Going by stages stops. There are no stages that go anywhere else. You find the perfection of everything that came before, without stages. (PK, f. rib) There are no stages (sa med) beyond this point

...

a. Basis Enlightenment
The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away.

Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20).

Tilopa says: When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha.

The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space.

Basis enlightenment leads to a very "new view of the way the realized mind stays" (TN, p. 5 17). When the concept of individual consciousness or "mind" is finally eradicated, a profound rearrangement takes place.

Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience. Therefore the first moment of enlightenment is called basis enlightenment.

During the ordinary special-insight meditations the practitioner searched for certain knowledge within arising events of the ordinary mental continuum. During the extraordinary samadhi meditations the practitioner located the simultaneous mind as the source of certain knowledge. Now, with basis enlightenment, knowledge takes on a new epistemological locus of knowledge. Awakened wisdom comes forth but not in association with either the ordinary or the simultaneous mind. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness]has no basis. It is without coming Ong med) and without going ('song med), in that it does not arise from the seeming activity of the relative mental continuum. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] is self-originated (rang 'byung). It is simply there, and with basis enlightenment, stays there. Basis enlightenment is called, "wisdom beyond the world" (TN, p. 542)."

 

So also according to Mahamudra/Tibetan Buddhism, the Deep Identity Level Shift of Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment is sudden (contrary to the slowly ripening of Awakened Awareness before), self-evident, and there is no stage beyond it. Awake or not.

Other Traditions call the shifts that happen before that event "Awakenings", some even Enlightenments. But qualified Enlightenments, "smaller" Enlightenments, partial gradual "awakenings" refining the mindstream to make it conform to the Big Shift, awake or not. Its a question of choosing the words. But they tend to differentiate clearly between the final thing/Great Enlightenment/Waking Up, and the events before. 

I agree with Inliytened1 that if we call this Great Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment/ Waking Up, that one is either awake or not. Digital, either or. Before being awake, one can maybe postulate there are gradual changes/"Awakenings", preparing for the final big shift (called crossing over to Enlightenment, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra).  Or waking up, like in awake or not.

If one knows or has realized what one truly deeply is, one knows what one is, and also what everything else is and only can ever be. Awake or not. If one is not sure, one is still asleep/dreaming. Awakening n+1 ain't it....

Selling Water by the River

 

 

This is excellent.  All you have to do now is realize it for yourself

You have all the pieces to the puzzle.   Now become the puzzle

But yeah - this shift in consciousness is profound because Pure Consciousness was always there.  You were always Absolute Consciousness. But you limited yourself via a shift in your state of consciousness.   You're current state of consciousness is that of a finite self - with other being anything not you.  When this evaporates, with a shift in consciousness, then there is just pure consciousness.  But the shift must be total.   This means the collapse of the self and other duality.   This is a duality and an illusion that can be peeled away.  The problem is that this is death.  If you have strong attachments to this world the ego will not go softly into the night.  It must be by the element of surprise.  So the words in these ancient texts are true, but validating them is another matter.  Long live the blessed Buddha. 

[Water by the River]

13 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is excellent.  All you have to do now is realize it for yourself

You have all the pieces to the puzzle.   Now become the puzzle

Ah, you know, too busy Selling Water by the River for doing that... 

Water by the River

 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Ah, you know, too busy Selling Water by the River for doing that... 

Water by the River

 

Indeed I did know.  And you knew that.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Putting into percents is another mistake.   You either wake up from a dream or you don't.   There aren't percents of this.  There are different things you can learn about the dream you are dreaming - but awakening is Absolute. 

Not in my opinion. If you have broken the ice of the surface it is obvious. Basic awakening for me is realizing the infinite and what the limited appearance is. the infinite absolute fills you with joy, you realize that you are that and that it is impossible for it to be anything else. the finite are perfectly arranged boundaries that create an appearance. How many people have really, truly, opened up to this? This will make you laugh out loud for a while, with pure joy. all your repressed energy will be released. but is this realizing god? No. do you realize the will and intelligence? really, without conceptualizing. everyone lies here! Or it seems so

Maybe basic awakening is the most important, but still, we aren't not totally awake to what we are, just the first glimpse

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

35 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Indeed I did know.  And you knew that.

Actually, on my bucket list is offering courses in “1984” doublethink, Steven Norquist style:

• http://www.hauntedpress.net/What_is_Enlightenment.html
• "You basically have to employ a little Orwellian “1984” doublethink. You have to pretend to believe, while always knowing the truth."
• Or how to improve ones imaginary Karma while Selling Water by the River

No, just kidding . Gotta stay humble....

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: And the coolest answer to the next question: Are you enlightened, Sir !? 

Ken Wilbers answer: Enlightened enough....

" In Zen are you enlightened what was always taken as a trick because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't if you say yes then you clearly... no individual is enlightened . but if you say no then you're just an ignoramus, you're an idiot"

"almost all I can say is enlightened enough if you say more than that you're just a braggart and almost certainly wrong and if you say less than that then you're worthless you know and you're also not telling the truth"

[Water by the River]

42 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Not in my opinion. If you have broken the ice of the surface it is obvious. Basic awakening for me is realizing the infinite and what the limited appearance is. the infinite absolute fills you with joy, you realize that you are that and that it is impossible for it to be anything else. the finite are perfectly arranged boundaries that create an appearance. How many people have really, truly, opened up to this? This will make you laugh out loud for a while, with pure joy. all your repressed energy will be released. but is this realizing god? No. do you realize the will and intelligence? really, without conceptualizing. everyone lies here! Or it seems so

Maybe basic awakening is the most important, but still, we aren't not totally awake to what we are, just the first glimpse

I also understand the reaction of Breakingthewall here.

@Inliytened1 and Breakingthewall:  How about both perspectives are important:

• (1) The steps (or awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments (not the Final Basis Enlightenments) or temporary openings to the real state of things, whatever you want to call them) to Absolute Reality/Ones True being are important, since they are aligning the individual mindstream more with the enlightenened mindstream, increasing its potential to finally wake up fully. That is still happening in the dream, but the dream can be more or less lucid. But these experiences are very important. So maybe something like "waking up fully" is sudden, its either or, its an "accident", but previous "awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments" make accident-prone.
• Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment/Final Enlightenment/Fully Waking Up: The full waking up is then a sudden, unmistaken waking up to the True Reality of both oneself and Reality, nondual.

The description of the Tibetan Mahamudra System, and Basis Enlightenment, describes exactly that:

(1) "Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash [small "awakenings/enlightenments or whatever one wants to call it" but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience."

(2) Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event [sudden, awake or not], wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations

At least from my perspective it doesn't look so complicated to align the different statements/wordings/descriptions/experiences/views concepts into a picture that can contain them all, that is spacious enough in an integral way to make room for all experiences and perspectives in a coherent picture.

Water by the River

Edited May 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[Water by the River]

... and its the old conflict between sudden and gradual awakening. That conflict happened in every spiritual system, for example very famous in Zen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism

So it is probably not the newest show in town....

Well, I prefer the integral solution of "nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time", so both perspectives hold a certain degree of truth. Which can then be integrated.

Selling Water by the River