Hedonism vs. Eudaimonia

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Devin said:

Do you not think this is ego/fear based? What gives the "meaning, purpose"?

And Is this not in the same paradox as hedonism, if you're always trying to "maximize net enjoyment", or "it's constantly changing"?

Isn't this just like a hedonism but for the ego?

Survival is ego based. It's just survival done right. What you really don't like, the ugly parts of survival, is survival done half-assedly or unwisely.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Nilsi said:

It's hard to talk to you because none of what you're saying is wrong, but it's still so limited by your scientism.

Real courage (or spirituality for that matter) is not doing what science and society at large has already confirmed to be safe and acceptable.

You're so obsessed with being factual and maintaining your "integrity," that you just double down on your biases when someone tries to point them out.

How many times have I admitted to blindspots and biases and openly laid them out? Is that because I'm a biased idiot or is that because I'm trying to be honest and grow? You never do this, because you're too afraid of destabilizing your mind - which is fine, but don't pretend it's courage please.

I'm biased towards perennial truths validated by personal experience.

 

5 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Of course there are socially acceptable ways to be courageous like being a fighter fighter, stopping a thief, speaking up for a minority - but even that is kinda half-baked; when you fully well know everybody will praise you for it and tell you what a great guy you are.

Overcoming yourself by stepping into uncharted territory, without any safety mechanisms and everybody calling you all sorts of names for it - that takes real courage.

Meditation can be that, I'll give you that.

Gaining social approval by being virtuous is not the point. It's just a signal that you're doing something right and a carrot to keep you going (that evolution set up for you by the way). The internal signalling of your body being functional and your mind being clear is what really matters. That is the proof of the metaphysical significance. However, as a general rule, if something is admired, it's usually to be emulated. The devil is in the details.

[Devin]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Survival is ego based. It's just survival done right. What you really don't like, the ugly parts of survival, is survival done half-assedly or unwisely.

You think this is actual enjoyment though? Not just running from the pain of judgment?

 

On 2/1/2023 at 10:19 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Enjoyment is not just pleasure as a physical sensation. It's the experience of meaning, purpose, understanding, love, truth; connectedness, beingness, aliveness. There is a richness to life that is only experienced by participating deeply in it in all of its manifestations, and that requires something from you. You don't just receive life. You uncover it as a growing organism in the game called life, and you need to play it well in order to truly enjoy it.

For instance where does this "meaning, purpose" come from? Isn't it rooted in the opinions of others, if so wouldn't the carrot keep moving? Or when you get to one carrot you quickly see or look for a new one to chase.

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, Devin said:

You think this is actual enjoyment though? Not just running from the pain of judgment?

Not expressing your full capacities, that is fear. Living life gracefully in line with your rationality, your conscience, your emotional sensitivities and physical capabilities, that is the opposite of fear.

 

51 minutes ago, Devin said:

For instance where does this "meaning, purpose" come from? Isn't it rooted in the opinions of others, if so wouldn't the carrot keep moving? Or when you get to one carrot you quickly see or look for a new one to chase.

Meaning is the structure of reality. Living in line with meaning is to be in line with reality. If you want to skip all that and mahasamadhi right now, go for it (don't harm your physical body), but there is a certain way life is, and there is a certain way to live a good life. The Bodhisattva knows this. No need to deny life.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Devin]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Not expressing your full capacities, that is fear. Living life gracefully in line with your rationality, your conscience, your emotional sensitivities and physical capabilities, that is the opposite of fear.

 

Meaning is the structure of reality. Living in line with meaning is to be in line with reality. No need to deny life.

Would you say enjoyment or peace is how you know you're "in line"? Or is it just through contemplation, or ......?

I agree with living life, for me anyway, a monastery isn't the life for me, it's just some of the words you use like 

On 2/1/2023 at 10:19 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Because what gives you pleasure is not a static thing. It's constantly changing depending on what is salient to your survival right now.

 It all adds up to maximizing net enjoyment in the end. Enjoyment is not just pleasure as a physical sensation. It's the experience of meaning, purpose, 

 

and that requires something from you. You don't just receive life. You uncover it as a growing organism in the game called life, and you need to play it well in order to truly enjoy it.

how is it determined you're "playing it well"? What metric? For me it's joy, if you're at peace.

To me if the metric isn't joy then you're being held back by judgement, ego, fear.

[Insane butterfly]

Sorry to call this thread out but is dead wrong. 

It's funny and frustrating at the same time to see how the Greek language is getting raped. Hedonism is not a bad word and has little to do with the list above.  Eudaimonia has nothing to do with virtue, integrity and so on. 

These words are used daily in modern Greek, for the foreigners they are just fancy words to philosophizing with 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Devin]

53 minutes ago, Insane butterfly said:

Sorry to call this thread out but is dead wrong. 

It's funny and frustrating at the same time to see how the Greek language is getting raped. Hedonism is not a bad word and has little to do with the list above.  Eudaimonia has nothing to do with virtue, integrity and so on. 

These words are used daily in modern Greek, for the foreigners they are just fancy words to philosophizing with 

 

Hedonism- Physical pleasure?

Eudaimonia- Happiness?

 

I don't think he was giving definitions.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

Would you say enjoyment or peace is how you know you're "in line"? Or is it just through contemplation, or ......?

I agree with living life, for me anyway, a monastery isn't the life for me, it's just some of the words you use like 

how is it determined you're "playing it well"? What metric? For me it's joy, if you're at peace.

To me if the metric isn't joy then you're being held back by judgement, ego, fear.

It's joy. It's just more subtle than clinging onto every impermanent sensory experience and trying to extract joy from them (hedonism). You have to be a bit smarter than that.

 

1 hour ago, Insane butterfly said:

Sorry to call this thread out but is dead wrong. 

It's funny and frustrating at the same time to see how the Greek language is getting raped. Hedonism is not a bad word and has little to do with the list above.  Eudaimonia has nothing to do with virtue, integrity and so on. 

These words are used daily in modern Greek, for the foreigners they are just fancy words to philosophizing with 

I'm using the words in the context of a cross-over between a common English understanding of them and what certain philsophers have said about them, not the context of the Greek language.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's joy. It's just more subtle than clinging onto every impermanent sensory experience and trying to extract joy from them (hedonism). You have to be a bit smarter than that.

Alright, thank you, I feel the same way, and yes I agree it takes a great level of awareness/lack of ignorance.