How do you know what's real?

[Bear632]

I've dabbled with breathwork, psilocybin, and a couple of retreats over the past 2-3 years. I've gone deeper with meditation, up to 80 mins/day for a period of a few months. 

With every practice though, it seems things are explainable from a rational-scientific POV as well. Mushrooms are just making you high, meditation is relaxing you, and so on. And if I'm being honest, even after some pretty profound experiences I can't say confidently whether my interpretation of the experience is correct.

Do elevated states of consciousness become more clear and verifiable as one progresses on this path? 

How do you know you're not interpreting your experience with a bias? (i.e.) How do you know what's real?

 

 

 

 

[ilja]

They should.

Can you not see that bias is a perspective and what seems to be real too?

[Space]

@Bear632 You simply haven't gone deep enough with this work. At some of the deepest levels, the notion of a 'rational-scientific POV' completely dissolves and is seen to be profoundly meaningless and quite frankly absurd. Thats not to say that a rational scientific perspective is not useful in some circumstances. Its great for survival, but its not anywhere near the truth. Rationality and science are just thoughts, concepts, not Reality itself. 

So yes, to answer your question, elevated states of consciousness do become much much clearer. 

3 hours ago, Bear632 said:

How do you know you're not interpreting your experience with a bias? (i.e.) How do you know what's real?

Thats a very tricky thing because you experience basically everything with a bias. The bias of your self agenda. 

You mean, how do you know when you are not deluding or tricking yourself? Because the absolute is unmistakable. Once you truly get it, its obviously the truth, without a shadow of doubt. Can't be more absolute than absolute.

[Bear632]

@Space Thank you for answering the first question directly. You are right that I am new to this work. 

1 hour ago, Space said:

At some of the deepest levels, the notion of a 'rational-scientific POV' completely dissolves and is seen to be profoundly meaningless and quite frankly absurd.

This is a perfect example of what I'm struggling with. What do you mean by that POV "dissolving"? Is this dissolving process coming to you in the form of a thought or a feeling? I find it difficult to relate to when some have told me before "you will just know"... to which my response would be, how do you not know that that feeling of "just knowing" is not your own self-delusion? 

 

1 hour ago, Space said:

You mean, how do you know when you are not deluding or tricking yourself? Because the absolute is unmistakable. Once you truly get it, its obviously the truth, without a shadow of doubt. Can't be more absolute than absolute.

Yes, a better way of phrasing the question would be that. Hmm, ok.

While on retreat I experienced an extended no-mind where there were no thoughts. And one time while tripping I had a samadhi-like experience where my sense of self and a tree I was staring at merged into what felt like a single form of existing.

But both times after the fact I couldn't help but question what had happened. Thinking possibly I am just telling myself a story that THAT was "elevated consciousness" but really it's because I read it in a book or heard it on some video. I can't help but wonder if I'm deluding myself.

So yes, I definitely lack experience compared to @Leo Gura and you @Space (at least it sounds like it). But I have had at least 2 pretty bizarre experiences that run parallel to what spiritual teachers have talked about... and I personally don't see how conclusions about reality or the universe can be drawn from such experiences. 

[Space]

9 hours ago, Bear632 said:

@Space Thank you for answering the first question directly. You are right that I am new to this work. 

This is a perfect example of what I'm struggling with. What do you mean by that POV "dissolving"? Is this dissolving process coming to you in the form of a thought or a feeling? I find it difficult to relate to when some have told me before "you will just know"... to which my response would be, how do you not know that that feeling of "just knowing" is not your own self-delusion? 

Some good questions. I'll speak from my experience with high dose 5-MeO. By 'POV dissolving' I meant that all language, concepts, ideas, symbols etc just dissolved or disappeared, or were 'seen through' to be completely meaningless. So all rationality, logic, science and even spirituality and philosophy fell away. All that is, is undivided Infinity. This is the explanation for all things. But don't believe me. 

True knowing goes beyond delusion in a way that can't be explained. What they're talking about it a direct consciousness of something. Which is direct and utterly, profoundly unmistakable. For example I know I am Eternal Infinite God, without a single speck of doubt, but I can't explain how I know that. I could say that Infinite God woke up from me and remembered itself as itself. Thats unmistakable. 

9 hours ago, Bear632 said:

While on retreat I experienced an extended no-mind where there were no thoughts. And one time while tripping I had a samadhi-like experience where my sense of self and a tree I was staring at merged into what felt like a single form of existing.

But both times after the fact I couldn't help but question what had happened. Thinking possibly I am just telling myself a story that THAT was "elevated consciousness" but really it's because I read it in a book or heard it on some video. I can't help but wonder if I'm deluding myself.

So yes, I definitely lack experience compared to @Leo Gura and you @Space (at least it sounds like it). But I have had at least 2 pretty bizarre experiences that run parallel to what spiritual teachers have talked about... and I personally don't see how conclusions about reality or the universe can be drawn from such experiences. 

If you can explain the realisation of non duality between you and the tree through rational science I will be impressed. And saying 'it was just happening in the brain' doesn't say anything at all. 

But look, the main point here is that this has to be figured out by you. Theres no point in anyone here trying to persuade you of the fact that those changes in consciousness were not delusional. Questioning these sorts of experiences is perfectly normal - i've been there too. 

Stay openminded, go for the Truth no matter what. Don't believe anyone. Find the Truth for yourself. If you want to shortcut the whole thing, try a large dose of 5-MeO-DMT.

[Eternal Unity]

Inner Experience 

[Bear632]

14 hours ago, Space said:

But look, the main point here is that this has to be figured out by you. Theres no point in anyone here trying to persuade you of the fact that those changes in consciousness were not delusional. Questioning these sorts of experiences is perfectly normal - i've been there too. 

Thanks for your responses, you're right, thanks again for directly and clearly answering the 1st question.