Veganism And Ethics

[Bob84]

Russia is to big. Its x times bigger then whole Europe. Just look at the different food traditions in Europe.

Mixing enlightenment into this subject to make it sound more legit is just silly. Unless we are talking about the "self realized fucking cow" i guess .

[Alex K]

@Bob84 well Neil is here to pitch, not to listen to reason, he used the strategy of leveling with the folks, but it was stale and took him nowhere here. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Alex K

[Live Life Liam]

Why is everyone getting so defensive about there beliefs. There is nothing right or wrong so it doesn't matter if you are vegan or eat meat as your not better or worse because of that.

Look there is clearly a consequence of animal agriculture that a lot of people on the forum are culturally biased too which I think many of you should try open your mind too even if it causes tough resistance. 

I know how many people hate vegans or vegetarians as much as people dislike feminism so I can see a lot of these comments are simply egoic reactions.  A lot of the reason why people are so closed minded to not eating animals is due to cultural beliefs and we all know even from Leo's video how hard it can be to let go of our ideas from society.

On the other hand to you who are upset by these people who eat meat just see that all your doing is causing yourself suffering by making these moralistic story's of how people shouldn't do this or that.

It's important to try help the planet and reduce the suffering for all beings but there's no point to suffer on your journey.

Personally I do not eat any animal products but I'm not defending either side. Both are just as valid forms of living as the other.

There is no such thing as a spiritual diet so calm down and just do as your intuition tells you. It knows best

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Live Life Liam

[Prabhaker]

20 minutes ago, Live Life Liam said:

Personally I do not eat any animal products but I'm not defending either side. Both are just as valid forms of living as the other.

There is no such thing as a spiritual diet so calm down and just do as your intuition tells you. It knows best

"You are what you eat",

If you are a meditator and a vegetarian, try non- vegetarian food for few weeks on regular basis. You will clearly observe what difference it can make. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Prabhaker

[Bob84]

8 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

"You are what you eat".

You are a Potato!

Sry, couldn't help it. Im sure there's a difference in the body when your diet changes. And well, my mom always said, eat your vegetables cause there healthy.

[Prabhaker]

Just now, Bob84 said:

And well, my mom always said, eat your vegetables cause there healthy.

It is not about health, some foods if taken in right quantity make meditation easier.

[Live Life Liam]

44 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

"You are what you eat",

If you are a meditator and a vegetarian, try non- vegetarian food for few weeks on regular basis. You will clearly observe what difference it can make. 

I have eaten meat and non vegetarian food before and see the difference.

I know personally that a plant based diet improves performance with meditation and pretty much anything else I just can't claim this to be the same with everyone since I only experience one perspective on reality at least at this time

I think people should stop eating animals but I do not judge others if they do.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Live Life Liam

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Live Life Liam said:

I have though since if you are a vegetarian you have usually eaten meat before as I have so I have no need to do so.

It makes difference to those who are committed to grow into a meditator. They can feel the difference. 

[Live Life Liam]

Just now, Prabhaker said:

It makes difference to those who are committed to grow into a meditator. They can feel the difference. 

I have edited the comment so reply to that if you want.

Are you vegetarian or not?

[Prabhaker]

Just now, Live Life Liam said:

Are you vegetarian or not?

I was non-vegetarian earlier, my journey towards meditation changed me.

[WaveInTheOcean]

"But meat cannot be allowed, that is just ugly. Just to think that you are killing an animal to eat, just the very idea, is unaesthetic. I am not against it because the animal is killed… because that which is essential in the animal will live, it cannot be killed, and that which is nonessential, whether you kill it or not, is going to die. So that is irrelevant, that is not a point for me to consider.

The question is not that you have killed the animal and killing is not good, no. The question is that you have killed the animal — you. Just to eat? While beautiful vegetarian food is available? If vegetarian food is not available, that’s one thing. But the food IS available. Then why? Then why destroy a body? And if you can kill an animal, then why not be a cannibal? What is wrong with killing a man? The meat derived from a human body will be more in tune with you. Why not start eating human beings? That too is a question of aesthetics.

And the animals are brothers and sisters, because man has come from them. They are our family. To kill a man is only to kill an evolved animal, or to kill an animal is just to kill somebody who is not yet evolved but is on the way. It is the same. Whether you kill the child when he is in the first grade or whether you kill the young man when he has come to his last grade in the university, it does not make much difference. The animals are moving towards human beings, and human beings had once been animals. It is only a question of aesthetics. Why not kill your wife and eat her? She is so beautiful and so sweet….

A friend came to a cannibal and the food was prepared and the friend had never tasted anything like it. He had never even dreamed that food could be so tasty, so delicious. When he was leaving he said to the cannibal, “I loved the food. I have never loved food so much. When I come next, prepare the same dishes.”
And the cannibal said, “That is difficult, because I only had one mother.”

Why can’t you eat your mother? Why can’t you eat your husband or your child? — so delicious. The question is not religious, I would like to remind you again, it is a question of aesthetics."

-Osho , http://www.oshomandakini.com/you-can-eat-meat-and-you-can-love/

This resonated pretty well with me.

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 1/11/2016 at 9:38 PM, NTOgen said:

If one day supermarkets decide to find more "wholesome" sources of meat or whatever, or the food industry suddenly sees the light

I just read this again and stumbled over the ignorance of what I just read.

The food industry will never see the "light" as long as the consumers (you and me) continue to buy what they currently offer. This is just so extremely obvious that even a 5-year old should be able to understand it.

NTO, instead of all your wall of texst of mostly nonsense in this thread, why can't you just write:

"I couldn't care less that animals get slaughtered on farms every day. I couldn't care less that I support the killing of conscious animals so that my tongue can enjoy the tasty taste of meat. I don't care because I weigh the convenience and taste of eating meat over concious animals getting treated properly."

Edited November 12, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

 

[Leo Gura]

This is an emotionally charged topic for many.

Folks, please remember to keep your posts thoughtful, non-personal, and avoid turning this discussion into an ideological debate.

Otherwise this thread may end up getting locked.

[WaveInTheOcean]

"I don't weigh anything, only ego's weigh stuff"

lol

[WaveInTheOcean]

@NTOgen

Look, I know you are seeking enlightenment. I know you are seeking liberation 'from ego'. The first thing you and your BFAM-pal Turbolover should realize (the sooner the better) is that the 'you' seeking liberation from what you call 'ego' is the ego itself. So you are just an ego wanting to be free from itself. This is naturally impossible, and it's not what enlightenment is.

We don't even need the word 'ego'. The word 'person' is 100% the same as what 'ego' is. Also applies to mind (ego = mind = person). As long as the brain of yours is alive you will - whether you like it or not - continue to be an ego/person. This doesn't matter if you're un- or enlightened.

An enlightened person is still an example of empty/pure consciousness seeing it self as a finite mind. This finite mind (= the enlightened person) has just achived a quantum leap of true self-realization ...

Not merely just intellectual/logic-wise, but feeling-wise as well. It's somewhat easy for persons with a little open-mindedness and average intelligence to logically grasp that he's not the body nor the mind. But to actually FEEL it on an everyday-basis (not just through short no-self/awakening-experiences) is what is HARD to achieve because of some very deep-rooted web-of-beliefs/programming (that you're not even conscious of) keep creating a sense of self that tells you that you really a REAL individual 'thing')

An enlightened mind (=person) has discovered its ultimate existential nature = nothingness/awareness/infinite consciousness. And this realization now sticks. Enlightenment is a never-ending path, because in ordinary life infinite consciousness will always "be" in form of a finite mind/a finite consciousness. But the enlightened mind has just began on the journey of expanding from: finite mind ----------> infinite mind. You can never actually reach 'infinite mind' constantly; only through glimpses of meditation/self-inquiry/psychedelics (5 MeO being the best). Thus an enlightened mind is simply a mind that has an unlimited perspective of what it defines as itself. An unenlightened/asleep mind in contrast has a narrow view of what it defines as itself (it thinks it's a self). An enlightened mind is thus much more free and unbound. An enlightened mind experiences Truth in everyday life. An enlightened person not only understands Truth logically, but he experiences Truth daily.

Enlightenment is not an ego-less state. It's just a self-realization/Truth state (of the ego itself).
(in many ways, enlightenment is the opposite: it's an ego-empowered state instead of a Being-empowered state... Because Being-empowered state = pure Being is fully tricking itself into believing it's an ego, while ego-empowered state = ego somewhat fully realizing its true nature is pure Being ... I'll expand upon this below)
 

Life is dualistic. On and off. Reality seems dualistic:

on: Being seeing itself as ego.
off: Ego seeing itself as Being.

In both states ego remains. It's just what perspective ego has.

The on-state is what EVERY single human being (including all enlightened humans) are always functioning through when they interact in daily life.

The off-state is only possible to achieve momentarily through: NDE, no-self experiences from meditation, psychedelics, and so on. And even here there are degrees of how much you actually are in the off state. Because even though life is dualistic (on and off), there still is a continumm between the on and of states with an infinite number of degrees in variation between the two states. Cause "it" is infinite. 

Actual physical death is not even a off-state - because here there is no brain to simulate an ego to see itself as Being. Actual physical death is just one 'on-state' instantly switching to another 'on-state' (pure Being seeing itself as another ego).

So in a way, yes sure, "Being"/nothingness/consciousness is all there is. But on the opposite part of the spectrum, we have the "ego is all there is" (which relates to biocentrism talks about) which is just as true. Both are equally true. If there are no egos then there can't be a no-ego (pure Being) either!

The existence of ego's are what makes it possible for the Universe/Being to experience itself.

So it's not just that life is dualistic. In fact REALITY is dualistic. Yes for there be to dualism, there must exist non-dualism is also. So reality is both dualistic and non-dualistic at the same time. I know this is all circular logic, but existence is a circle. So it's not just that life is dualistic. Reality is dualistic.

-----------

If we return to the on/off-analogy:

on: Being seeing itself as ego.
off: Ego seeing itself as Being.

As I said earlier, "The on-state is what EVERY single human being (including all enlightened humans) are always functioning through when they interact in daily life."
However, relatively speaking, I would say that enlightened persons are where the ego relatively speaking has taken somehwhat full control (has become full aware of itself, including all the subconsciousness) and thus can see that relatively speaking its true nature is Being.

So an enlightened person is still ultimately in the on-state, of course, but one could say that he is relatively speaking in the off-state. An enlightened mind is a mind/ego that relatively sees itself as pure Being.

It's funny how we (eg. Leo) often talk about how we should completetly break-down the ego to become enlightened. But each time you break it down, something new must be built in its place. You could call this more true beliefs.

A person who is totally engulfed in the dream state (on state) - that is a case of Being totally seeing itself as an ego without any nuances - yes this person has a very strong (unconsious) ego that enforces this dream state. 
On the opposite side we have the enlightened person - a person who sees through the dream state, sees it for what it is - this is in a sense a case of ego seeing itself as Being (relatively). This means it's a case of an ego that has become fully self-aware, and thus by having become fully self-ware, this ego is now able to be more in control; more free/unbound. Free will still doesn't exist of course. Ultimately this person is still in the on-state of course. So in a sense, an enlightened person has a very powerful and 'self-conscious' ego that instead of enforcing the dream state upon itself makes it possible for itself to see through it.

Edited November 13, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

Not so much, I'm just having fun. 

"The first thing you and your BFAM-pal Turbolover should realize (the sooner the better) is that the 'you' seeking liberation from what you call 'ego' is the ego itself."

It's quite obvious to me that you have not realized this. That you instead believe that there is a 'true you' that can be free from ego. This is a total misunderstanding of reality. Of course this depends on what you define as 'ego'. I define one ego equals that one person. The 'true you' (=pure Being) is always functioning through this person you are. 

Someone likes to define ego as all that makes them do/experience stuff in a special filtered way. What is the 'them' then? And if you remove ego, what is left to make you do/experience stuff?

Yes, you can see ego as filters. But there will always be filters. Enlightenment just depends on what the filters are. Enlightenment may be very pure-empty-non-judging-non-claiming filters, but THAT is STILL a filter. And it is not easy to replace your programmed filters with pure, empty filters. But it's possible of course. Sometimes it happens spontaneously, but most of the times it takes 'hard work', exactly like Leo teaches. Hard work can refer to doing meditation daily, self-inquiry, seeing videos like Leo's, and even doing psychedelics. 
Yes, it pisses me off (but in a good fun way) to see that you, NTOgen, and your pal Turbolover in many ways disregard that fact that it most often takes work to become enlightened. Yes, enlightenment shouldn't be your goal - Truth should be. Yes, there's nothing fancy about enlightenment; it's just having pure, empty filters instead of your programmed-truth-distoring filters. But it takes -most of the time- work to get there.



EDIT: And yes, I know this is all pretty off-topic, but I couldn't help it.

Edited November 13, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

3 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

I still don't get your point, maybe I'm just a little confused. Is this the thread where you explain enlightenment to me?

I just put in an

"EDIT: And yes, I know this is all pretty off-topic, but I couldn't help it."

This thread started about eating meat, sure. But right now, yes - should be obvious, can't understand why you're confused - I'm explaining enlightenment to you, as you clearly have a fairly big misunderstanding of it, as I've said a few times now (and explained why).

Edited November 13, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

You're such a troll, lol.

Well, was fun, good luck with liberating "yourself" from the ego of yours

I'm sure the imaginary train will take you somewhere.

Edited November 13, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Martin123]

Im just gonna chip in, I haven't read the whole topic, sorry.
After I had a deep meditation realization of unconditional love, I kind of realized I can't continue being a meat-eater. It feels like I eat ashes when I do eat meat. `
So Im gonna finish up what I got in my freezer, and then go vegetarian, and prolly slowly transition to vegan. I don't think there is a right or wrong diet. Whatever you are ready for, you shall pursue.