Should I follow Stage Orange success advice?

[fopylo]

So before I've came across actualized.org I've been learning a bit from some stage orange Youtubers and some books. But after having watched some of Leo's videos it almost feels like I automatically outgrew some of those advices with the ones Leo provided. However I don't know if it's the best thing, here are examples:

You hear about building your identity and strengthening it by repeating affirmations - when we identify with something we create limitations and suffering
You hear about motivating yourself by avoiding pain and being drawn to pleasure - "ego" stuff. It can't be very sustainable I guess
You hear about the 6 needs for human fulfillment by Tony Robbins - Those are "requirements" you need to become fulfilled. It is still in the survival state
You hear about hard self discipline and commitment to your results - It just causes you to be more neurotic and creates a deeper split within yourself. You are also attached to an outcome

I could go on and on...
But this creates quite a bit of confusion for me, it's like many paradoxes. Now I might be very wrong and getting everything messed up in my mind. I'm trying to somehow connect the dots between everything I'm learning and trying to find some higher truths. This gets me to fill more stuck. It is hard for me to accept all what Tony Robbins (and other success gurus) is saying and also what Leo is saying. Some of the things seem to contradict each other

[EddieEddie1995]

Well, I guess the process here is to grow and deconstruct your ego simultaneously. 

Evaluate what teaching is good/right  by yourself. No one can tell you. For example, one teaching might work for you today, but it will stap working tommorow. 

Contradiction is just a different perspective that is relativly true. 

The confusion you are facing right now is good! Confusion makes you work harder, clear things out. It is a part of the process. Right now you are getting into a stage where you are constantly growing and your mind is learning to adopt to it (its getting liquidated). You are starting to understanding the complexity of things, you are getting into relativity. And it is not an easy process of course, but very necessary, and the best way to go about it is to Love the forever lasting Process! ❤ ?

 

 

 

[fopylo]

@EddieEddie1995 Yeah so that's the thing, it's hard for me to really open myself up to the ideas that Tony Robbins is giving that contradict Leo's more absolute teachings. Like you said - "contradiction is just a different perspective that is relatively true", that's the thing - I'm trying to find the truths within all those stage orange teachings. This is a hard process like you said. It doesn't entail removing all orange teachings, but rather finding the truths in them which will grow me and deconstruct my ego simultaneously. Yeah, just like you said. I am surely getting myself into serious stuff. And the problem is that there's no way back lol 

[Elevated]

If I understand you properly, you're saying that you are having a hard time accepting the Stage Orange materialistic advice, because Leo's teachings talk a lot about mysticism and enlightenment?

[Jiri Kuokkanen]

I think "orange" advice is great for its purpose. Having some practicals routines, work-ethic and sustainable finances (for example) don't really hurt anyone. That's not all there is into life, but it's still essential stuff for having one's life in order. So, I'd say, yes, follow the advice that you find helpful by trying it out  .

[fopylo]

@Elevated You got it right, pretty much. I'm having a hard time accepting Stage Orange materialistic advice because I've heard advice from Leo that goes far beyond it. But I don't know if dismissing this materialistic advice is a good decision because I guess there are some truths in them. My mind just has a hard time digging in and connecting the dots to what Leo said in order to find universal truths

[fopylo]

@Jiri Kuokkanen What you're saying is true, but here's the thing - The examples you gave are great in and of itself. However, now there is to take into consideration if those are "wants" or "needs", if it is to prove your self worth or enjoy the game, you gotta master your inner psychology as a fundamental to all success, you gotta connect to Being and to your true nature in order to really feel fulfilled and recognize that this is what you were really after, there is happiness and there is success. I could go on and on. Basically what I'm saying is that in Stage Orange teachings you're missing many essential elements that you MUST develop and understand in order to see the bigger picture and what you're really after. There are lot's of paradoxes and so it's really heavy on the mind to try and connect the dots

[fridjonk]

@fopylo https://www.actualized.org/insights/learning-from-partially-false-perspectives

[Woke456]

49 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Elevated You got it right, pretty much. I'm having a hard time accepting Stage Orange materialistic advice because I've heard advice from Leo that goes far beyond it. But I don't know if dismissing this materialistic advice is a good decision because I guess there are some truths in them. My mind just has a hard time digging in and connecting the dots to what Leo said in order to find universal truths

Leo totally used Tony Robbins's advice to get most of what you see up and running.

[fopylo]

@Woke456 Well it still doesn't help me with the fact that it is paradoxical in my mind

[Woke456]

18 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Woke456 Well it still doesn't help me with the fact that it is paradoxical in my mind

Orange just means you worship the exponential growth curve IMO.  Tony Robbins tells you how to break out of Blue's linear growth and maintenance.  Green doesn't really like to utilize it, but you'll start to respect it again in stage Yellow after you gain perspective and working for NGOs turns out to be unfilling, status killing, and materially deprivating.  Here's an example of what orange thinks about, it's actually pretty awesome to live your life this way:

 

[Elevated]

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Elevated You got it right, pretty much. I'm having a hard time accepting Stage Orange materialistic advice because I've heard advice from Leo that goes far beyond it. But I don't know if dismissing this materialistic advice is a good decision because I guess there are some truths in them. My mind just has a hard time digging in and connecting the dots to what Leo said in order to find universal truths

Okay the first thing you have to take into consideration is that "Waking Up" is different than Spiral Dynamics, which is "Growing Up." They're two different things that aren't necessarily related, though are obviously related at the level of Non-Duality. And this is where a major distinction comes in. There are certain truths that are more and less true depending on what level you're looking at things. At the level of making money, Non-Duality really isn't that valuable. You could make the case that Stage Orange mindsets + Non-Duality are better than just Stage Orange, however it is also likely true that when it comes to making money Stage Orange alone trumps Non-Duality alone. You have to decide on what goal you're trying to achieve. If you want to make enough money doing something you enjoy so that you can be financially free, then you are going to want to adopt Stage Orange mindsets. 

Secondly, you have to realize that the stages of the Spiral are all necessary. You must transcend AND include. If you are merely transcending without learning the lessons of each stage, you are missing out on a lot of contextualization that is necessary to truly understand the higher stages. If you haven't sufficiently learned the lessons of Orange or Green, and try to learn about Yellow ideas, you'll likely just be interpreting them through a Stage Orange worldview. You have to take your lumps and put in the work, being self-honest and humble about what stage you're really at.

Downward assimilation is when you take a higher stage idea and interpret it through a lower stage. For example, when many Stage Orange people hear about Spiral Dynamics, they think, "oh the higher stages are the best so I have to go to the top stages!" That is a very Stage Orange understanding of a Stage Yellow model because they motivated by a need to become the best rather than by a genuine desire to understand complex systems.

Be self-honest with where you are and get the education you need to fully integrate the stage you're at. Leo says this in all of his videos on Spiral Dynamics. Understand that certain ways of thinking are better for certain goals, especially given your current stage of development.  

[EddieEddie1995]

@Elevated Nice! Im getting into Ken Wilber's work! Its pretty fascinating! 

[Elevated]

3 hours ago, EddieEddie1995 said:

@Elevated Nice! Im getting into Ken Wilber's work! Its pretty fascinating! 

I have 40 pages left of my current book and then I'm starting "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality," I'm pretty excited to actually get into Ken Wilber's own work. The vast majority of what I know about his thinking is from what others have said. 

[EddieEddie1995]

Enjoy the process my friend!

I plan to read most of he's books, but right now I am only watching he's videos. It is amazing the way he communicates he's ideas... I am aspired to become a master like him! (And Leo) 

A lot of people will hear about Ken  in the future... I plan to talk about him on my YouTube channel (I will be a promoter, a messenger hehe).  Im getting ready to lunch it soon! It is called "Art on Spiral" 

[fopylo]

@Elevated But the thing is that the Stage Orange mindset contradicts the mindsets and teachings that Leo talks about. Most of the things that have to do with the ego and deeper reasons for why you aren't fulfilled aren't even addressed in Stage Orange.

I would like to earn more money but every time I get this ambitious feeling I tend to suppress it very quickly because it seems "un spiritual", "ego's doing", or anything like that.

Taking the good stuff from Stage Orange won't be so much mindsets I guess... Like half of them are self harming and strengthening the ego

[Elevated]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

@Elevated But the thing is that the Stage Orange mindset contradicts the mindsets and teachings that Leo talks about. Most of the things that have to do with the ego and deeper reasons for why you aren't fulfilled aren't even addressed in Stage Orange.

I would like to earn more money but every time I get this ambitious feeling I tend to suppress it very quickly because it seems "un spiritual", "ego's doing", or anything like that.

Taking the good stuff from Stage Orange won't be so much mindsets I guess... Like half of them are self harming and strengthening the ego

Consider that it's not a case of "either one or the other," but is instead, "both this and that." You can have practices that are very Stage Orange and, "anti-mystical," so to speak, but are okay when you know that they are at the end of the day, all bullshit. Remember, what mysticism tells us is that the map is not the territory, but that doesn't mean that the map is not useful.

Learn to build a very robust Stage Orange map, while knowing that it is just a map at the end of the day. Once you feel you've really integrated the lessons of Stage Orange, then begin updating that map with Stage Green ideas, and then Stage Yellow ideas, and so on.

Do all of that, while knowing full well that the map is all bullshit anyway. Like I said, Waking Up is different from Growing Up. Growing Up is about making more complex, and robust maps as you ascend the Spiral. Waking Up is about realizing the maps are all bullshit. However, like I said, don't make the mistake of thinking that just because the maps are all bullshit they are all useless. They are very useful. 

There is a reason that Leo calls some of his videos, "very advanced teachings." This is because these are teachings that take a long time to really understand. I don't understand them fully. Very few people on this forum really understand them. Trust the process. Do your due diligence. Study, practice, and take action. As you do, these things will begin to fall into place and you'll begin having a bigger and bigger picture understanding of what's actually going on. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Elevated
Comma for clarity

[Woke456]

56 minutes ago, Elevated said:

You can have practices that are very Stage Orange and, "anti-mystical," so to speak, but are okay when you know that they are at the end of the day, all bullshit.

Exponential growth and techology has solved a lot more pertinent problems than people sitting around dropping acid so I wouldn't exactly call it bullshit. 

For example, the guy who invented modern crop fertilizer literally kept billions of people from starving.  Imagine what stage of the spiral you're at when there's no food.

[Elevated]

42 minutes ago, Woke456 said:

Exponential growth and techology has solved a lot more pertinent problems than people sitting around dropping acid so I wouldn't exactly call it bullshit. 

For example, the guy who invented modern crop fertilizer literally kept billions of people from starving.  Imagine what stage of the spiral you're at when there's no food.

I'm talking about maps we use to navigate reality being bullshit, not their usefulness. What I mean by that is that the map used by the people who invented such technologies has been incredibly useful and has led to a lot of prosperity. However, the actual map they used to understand them is, ultimately, bullshit because it doesn't actually reflect the reality of the thing. It reflects it well enough so as to be useful, but it will never reflect it perfectly. This is what Waking Up is about, it's about realizing these maps are just maps and not the territory. This is why Spiral development and Waking Up are two completely different things. As I already said in previous replies, having Stage Orange alone will help you make money, or invent fertilizer, far better than Waking Up alone. I never made the point that exponential growth or technology was useless. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Elevated

[Woke456]

8 hours ago, Elevated said:

I'm talking about maps we use to navigate reality being bullshit, not their usefulness. What I mean by that is that the map used by the people who invented such technologies has been incredibly useful and has led to a lot of prosperity. However, the actual map they used to understand them is, ultimately, bullshit because it doesn't actually reflect the reality of the thing. It reflects it well enough so as to be useful, but it will never reflect it perfectly. This is what Waking Up is about, it's about realizing these maps are just maps and not the territory. This is why Spiral development and Waking Up are two completely different things. As I already said in previous replies, having Stage Orange alone will help you make money, or invent fertilizer, far better than Waking Up alone. I never made the point that exponential growth or technology was useless. 

So what do you mean by waking up, you mean like when you on psychadelics?