About Leo's new video on relativism

[Pacific Sage]

Leo mentions that some people like suffering and chose the path of suffering. I want to understand if this is a conscious decision or a path of sub-conscious conditioning for them to like it.

I cannot fathom to understand why someone would opt to be beaten in order for them to build a pyramid for example.

Can we find people from all stages of spiral Dynamics under this bracket or maybe there are only specific stages who only come under this? I can't imagine a stage green or maybe even orange who might like suffering.

Can you kind folk give me more examples of these paths where people like suffering? Just need more examples to understand this perspective. 

[Pacific Sage]

Is Bondage an example? I'm unsure if there are other factors at play with this one. 

Are dopamine and serotonin released when people who like to suffer are caused to suffer?

[Leo Gura]

I think you missed the point. I didn't exactly say people like suffering. I was just making a point about frames of reference.

Torturing a puppy is only bad relative to the assumption that suffering is bad.

From the Absolute perspective, suffering is not bad.

[Truth Addict]

@Pacific Sage

I think it's because people forget about death and somehow unconsciously believe in immortality.

I'm saying this because I know from my own experience. If I was immortal, I would have been the most selfish motherfucker there is. But since I'm not, then I prefer happiness in the present moment, which people tend to forget on their way to accomplish a delusional immortality.

Most of the time, suffering equals survival, that's why.

[Pacific Sage]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Torturing a puppy is only bad relative to the assumption that suffering is bad.

From the Absolute perspective, suffering is not bad.

Ah! I think I understand. Suffering after a break up might seem bad at that moment but is natural and needed. It isn't necessarily bad with the big picture in mind.

[Leo Gura]

@Pacific Sage That may be true but what I am saying goes deeper. It is an abstract point about frames of reference.

"Bad" only exists relative to some frame of reference you establish. How else can you determine when to call a thing bad? You need some criteria. Whatever criteria you choose will be aribtrary. You might say death is bad. But that's only true assuming you don't want to die. If you want to die death now becomes good. You might say, but who wanta to die? That is irrelevant. The point has already been made. It is an abstract point.

There cannot be bad as an Absolute.

[Ibn Sina]

'examples of these paths where people like suffering?'

I only know some religious paths where people inflict suffering on themselves.

- Spiritual practices in Buddha's time. Buddha almost starved himself to death to gain enlightenment. 
- Christians do self flagellation, whip themselves, as shown  in movie Angels and Demons. During Black death, people would walk on the street . flagellating themselves to repent their sins.
- Followers of  jainism (for some reason) pluck out their facial hair by bare hands. I saw on TV.
 

 

From their perspective, it is a pursuit for some higher form of liberation.

 

[Pacific Sage]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Pacific Sage That may be true but what I am saying goes deeper. It is an abstract point about frames of reference.

"Bad" only exists relative to some frame of reference you establish. How else can you determine when to call a thing bad? You need some criteria. Whatever criteria you choose will be aribtrary. You might say death is bad. But that's only true assuming you don't want to die. If you want to die death now becomes good. You might say, but who wanta to die? That is irrelevant. The point has already been made. It is an abstract point.

There cannot be bad as an Absolute.

No I can relate to it. Thank you!

Will need to work a lot and contemplate, for it to sink in.

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Pacific Sage

[Pacific Sage]

46 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

'examples of these paths where people like suffering?'

I only know some religious paths where people inflict suffering on themselves.

- Spiritual practices in Buddha's time. Buddha almost starved himself to death to gain enlightenment. 
- Christians do self flagellation, whip themselves, as shown  in movie Angels and Demons. During Black death, people would walk on the street . flagellating themselves to repent their sins.
- Followers of  jainism (for some reason) pluck out their facial hair by bare hands. I saw on TV.
 

 

From their perspective, it is a pursuit for some higher form of liberation.

 

From what I understand, while they definitely do it in the pursuit of liberation but I don't necessarily think they like it or enjoy it. 

Plucking out facial hair by hand? Haha i reckon this is a skill! I have tried pulling my own when I had a sloppy shave . It's quite difficult ?