Enlightenment Exclusivity - Who Is/isn't Capable Of Becoming Enlightened

[jimboJones]

Thoughts on the particular state of brain health/normalcy to experience temporary or permanent ego death. Everyone's brains are different thus everyone will have different abilities and/or thresholds to become enlightened. Where do we draw the line? I'm sure the mentally healthy (neurotypical/neurotic) can become enlightened, what about so called soft mental illness (depression/anxiety), they probably can with more work. How about those with schizophrenia or bipolar? Brain damage, mental retardation. Does a blind person enjoy becoming one with the universe when they have no subject/object perceived depth of field to collapse?

Obviously this can be answered as per the individual but I think this is an interesting topic nonetheless. The people who could benefit the most may unfortunately be inaccessible to this truth.  Thanks. 

[Kelley White]

On 2/21/2016 at 7:25 AM, jimboJones said:

Thoughts on the particular state of brain health/normalcy to experience temporary or permanent ego death. Everyone's brains are different thus everyone will have different abilities and/or thresholds to become enlightened. Where do we draw the line? I'm sure the mentally healthy (neurotypical/neurotic) can become enlightened, what about so called soft mental illness (depression/anxiety), they probably can with more work. How about those with schizophrenia or bipolar? Brain damage, mental retardation. Does a blind person enjoy becoming one with the universe when they have no subject/object perceived depth of field to collapse?

Obviously this can be answered as per the individual but I think this is an interesting topic nonetheless. The people who could benefit the most may unfortunately be inaccessible to this truth.  Thanks. 

 Hi @jimboJonesI think this is a really fascinating question.  I'm going to be interested to see what thoughts arise from this.   I like contemplating things like this myself.

[Kelley White]

@jimboJones  I wanted to think about your question before just offering up answers, there was quite a bit there to consider.

My observation is that many of the most wounded people seek self actualization with a rabid determination hoping for wellness. 

Dialectic Behavioral Therapy mixed cognitive therapy principles with Eastern Philosophy.  It has one of the highest success rates with PTSD compared to other therapies.   Rather than rehearsing trauma, you redirect focus.  Rather than avoiding emotions you experience them.   Rather than yielding to fears you face them and walk through them.

EMDR, Self actualization, there are so many different paths.

I've been around numerous individuals with brain impairments, mental illness, It seems to me many of them self actualize but they have to desire it.  

Your last question?  I have never been blind?  I think it would be an amazing question to ask a blind person.  That said, I've known people who were blind.  Some had sight and lost it, others never had sight.  They still have conceptual frameworks for understanding their reality.   I would be interested how they would experience this.   Wonderful question.

 

[Henri]

One`s able to see when you experience an `out of body experience`.

I guess that counts for blind people as well? 

[Isle of View]

On 21.2.2016 at 4:25 PM, jimboJones said:

Does a blind person enjoy becoming one with the universe when they have no subject/object perceived depth of field to collapse?

I think many blind people have a much better sense of "space" than people who use their eyes for it. Also, they are in a constant "actuality update mode" and need to be constantly in present time in order to sense their environment, whereas people who see through their eyes often don't look really in the moment.

To the general question on enlightenment: it really depends on what your definition of enlightenment is. For many it is a multi-life-time project. It also depends, of course, on the willingness of the individual. Even "normal" people, athletes with good brains and bodies and without any mental problems will be unable to reach something when there is no intention to do so.

Generally, yes, they are capable of enlightenment - but the realization may take some time. And then again, it also depends on the definition (read: expectation).

 

My perspective 

Chris

Edited February 24, 2016 by Isle of View

[Kelley White]

On 2/24/2016 at 4:12 AM, Isle of View said:

I think many blind people have a much better sense of "space" than people who use their eyes for it. Also, they are in a constant "actuality update mode" and need to be constantly in present time in order to sense their environment, whereas people who see through their eyes often don't look really in the moment.

To the general question on enlightenment: it really depends on what your definition of enlightenment is. For many it is a multi-life-time project. It also depends, of course, on the willingness of the individual. Even "normal" people, athletes with good brains and bodies and without any mental problems will be unable to reach something when there is no intention to do so.

@Isle of View Great points.

[Pallero]

On 2/21/2016 at 5:25 PM, jimboJones said:

Does a blind person enjoy becoming one with the universe when they have no subject/object perceived depth of field to collapse?

What makes you think that a blind person doesn't have perception of subjects and objects? Do you mean that sight is a superior sense to others? How come?

This whole question made me angry. Why would mentally ill be further from enlightenment? You might just as well argue that they are closer to it. Couldn't ego death seem like a mental illness? And why do you assume that people with schizophrenia are worst off, when they might actually be closest to enlightenment, since they already perceive spirits and sensations that "healthy" people cannot.

This seems to me like a load of social conditioning mixed with fear and arrogance. Excuse me for being crude.

[jimboJones]

@Pallero I understand your points. Trust me this question is out of fear and not arrogance, I want to believe enlightenment is available to everyone and not just those with normal brains. This question is about the potential to reduce suffering and not to mock anyone.

A blind person doesn't have subject/object perception in the visual field, but it's probably heightened in the other senses.

In one of Leo's videos (enlightenment FAQ Part 2) he says something along the lines of 'this (enlightenment) is available to everyone with a normal brain,' hence the reason for my question. 

There has to be a limit on how good/useful enlightenment actually is. Surely you agree that someone who is starving or in pain or being raped or tortured is not going to be set free by enlightenment and if you do then just imagine a worse scenario. Do you think a blind person would turn down the opportunity to have their eyesight restored because they are enlightened so its all good?  Thanks

[Toby]

Imo the investment in the dream or the story is what matters, not if the story is pleasant or unpleasant. And it doesn't matter how the characters in the story are. At least initially for waking up. But for embodiment it is quite helpful to be healthy on different levels imo. But there are no rules and no exclusivity.

[Henri]

People with schizophrenia are definitely  worst off... The main reason is an irreparable cause in the 7th chakra, according to chakra-psycholoy, despite the common western insight that it`s cause is a biological one.

Drugs abuse can cause the same result, ruined chakra and ruined prana distribution.

Perceiving spirits and all kinds off stuff by a person who suffers from schizophrenia are not from a healthy type. They need medicines to keep their feet on the ground, otherwise they are lost.

With kundalini-yoga one can experience effects that look a bit familiar as those who are schizophrenic. Mostly one makes a category-error by diagnosting pre-ego experiences as trans-ego experiences and vice versa. Ken Wilber calls this the pre-trans fallacy.

[Pallero]

1 hour ago, jimboJones said:

Do you think a blind person would turn down the opportunity to have their eyesight restored because they are enlightened so its all good?

Honestly? Yes, I do. Not that I have any experience in the matter. I'd love to hear an enlightened person's opinion on this.

[Toby]

I guess UG Krishnamurti said something like "If you can choose between enlightenment and 1 million bucks. Choose the 1 million. At least it's good for something".

Btw: Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie both woke up from severe psychological conditions. But they both were putting in some work. It did't happen only by itself.

[jimboJones]

@Henri Interesting , I know nothing of this prana/chakra stuff and tend to steer away from it. Any Wilber books you'd recommend? Also Ken presents an interesting case having his RNase deficiency illness. I'll be sure to read more on him as I have a friend who's obsessed with him and probably has a few of his books. Thanks

@Toby Was there a hidden message with UG Krishnamurti? Like surely you'd choose enlightenment over $1mil haha. I'm really interested in Eckhart Tolle's experience with depression and I'll check out Byron Katie. I've seen people comment about how Eckhart's depression still comes but how he relates to it totally differently, also how his suffering almost guided his awakening. It's hard to understand the guy though tbh.

This illustrates how enlightenment may be more or less a cure for anxiety because it relates directly to sense of self, whereas something like brain damage involves other brain faculties that fundamentally change experience. I.e the self can be anxious and see the world as anxiety provoking but that can be completely cut through and you are just left with raw experience whereas with brain damage the raw experience is different.

@Pallero I guess the only way to get answers to my question are to track down enlightened people with disorder x,y,z and see what they say

[Kelley White]

On 2/24/2016 at 4:12 AM, Isle of View said:

To the general question on enlightenment: it really depends on what your definition of enlightenment is.

@Isle of View By observation I see this as the most divisive issue, the language used to describe a state of being communicated as "enlightened" which really cannot be communicated with existing language precisely."

8 billion people each in their own reality attempting to use sound to express a concept of unique reality which then becomes a communal reality dependent upon alignment of observation.

10 hours ago, jimboJones said:

I guess the only way to get answers to my question are to track down enlightened people with disorder x,y,z and see what they say

@jimboJones   Disordered and present.   Having been beyond the spectrum of normal for some time now I suspect I would find "normal"  rather insane.  

 

[Todor]

In my journey trough this topic for now, I have discovered that you can experience nothingness and that a good thing to know in your daily life. But you have to take some role to be effective in this reallity and its okay as long as you don't consider it that this role is the only one you have. You can change it or revert back in to the nothingness to reboot your believe system.

[Flicker_boy]

i would say anyone can do this, since its not the person that wakes  up

[Kelley White]

On 3/14/2016 at 1:55 PM, Lorenzo Engel said:

i would say anyone can do this, since its not the person that wakes  up

@Lorenzo Engel, would you like to expand upon your statement?    Who? What wakes up?

[Flicker_boy]

On 16/03/2016 at 9:32 PM, Kelley White said:

@Lorenzo Engel, would you like to expand upon your statement?    Who? What wakes up?

look around, thats it, thats what wakes up

[Flicker_boy]

@Kelley White

 

[Kelley White]

@Lorenzo Engel, Hi!  Thank you so much for your response.  Let me take a listen to the video you shared, thank you so much.