Ego sneaking in the back door of new higher self

[Mellowmarsh]

27 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

It's clearly understanding that it was Never Real from day one.

Nothing is real. This was nothing but a pipe dream for no one.

[Sugarcoat]

9 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

It's not a forgetting or detaching either way.

It's clearly understanding that it was Never Real from day one.

The identification quickly/slowly ends due to that clear understanding. The energy is just no longer supplied to it. 

But there is still the memories of how it was prior. And that character can still be used sort a speak.

What would the understanding be based on if nothing had changed in the experience? It detached, quite literally “unhooked” somehow, then it’s seen it’s not you, because you’re no longer intertwined with it. But I don’t assume it’s the same for everyone. 

Edited Friday at 02:01 PM by Sugarcoat

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

What would the understanding be based on if nothing had changed in the experience? It detached, quite literally “unhooked” somehow, then it’s seen it’s not you, because you’re no longer intertwined with it. But I don’t assume it’s the same for everyone. 

It's based on realizing that identification was a misunderstanding. Similar to realizing Santa Claus isn't real, nothing actually changes because he was never real, but simultaneously it seems different without the belief in him.

And there are still memories of how it felt when there was a belief in him.

 

 

There isn't a real self tangled with an illusory self........there just isn't a self altogether. 

Nobody gets untangled. 

And that can feel ordinary and simultaneously terrifying or anything in-between. Like free floating.

 

[Sugarcoat]

5 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

It's based on realizing that identification was a misunderstanding. Similar to realizing Santa Claus isn't real, nothing actually changes because he was never real, but simultaneously it seems different without the belief in him.

And there are still memories of how it felt when there was a belief in him.

 

 

There isn't a real self tangled with an illusory self........there just isn't a self altogether. 

Nobody gets untangled. 

And that can feel ordinary and simultaneously terrifying or anything in-between. Like free floating.

 

Ok seems you're describing enlightenment, non duality, which you usually do. I can't speak for that beyond what makes sense to me. But there can be a profound, and permanent transition from mind-self to a more empty self, occurring in a split second. I say "more empty" because mind activity within it can still illuminate self, so it's not so clearly empty, but I cant emphasize enough how it's a radically different state in comparison to prior that transition. 

Edited Friday at 09:39 PM by Sugarcoat

[VeganAwake]

5 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

But there can be a profound, and permanent transition from mind-self to a more empty self, occurring in a split second. I say "more empty" because mind activity within it can still illuminate self, so it's not so clearly empty, but I cant emphasize enough how it's a radically different state in comparison to prior that transition. 

Oh yeah, I believe it. With me things usually felt slow and meticulous, but some things seemed very quick also.

In 2015 I changed a lot of things in my life. I started eating very clean and healthy, meditating almost daily, doing yoga and mindfulness practice/positive affirmations.

I thought I was awesome and I felt awesome. My mind was very clear and calm especially from the meditation.

Eventually though everything become kind of ordinary and my career really hadn't advanced comparatively to my peers. I started really judging myself negatively. It was almost like an ego backlash or something.

It was such a radical shift in perspective that I started investigating closely what was the cause.

Self introspection can be very revealing.

The ego/self illusion never becomes satisfied.  Just that recognition alone can be seemingly profound.

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Ok seems you're describing enlightenment, non duality, which you usually do. I can't speak for that beyond what makes sense to me. But there can be a profound, and permanent transition from mind-self to a more empty self, occurring in a split second. I say "more empty" because mind activity within it can still illuminate self, so it's not so clearly empty, but I cant emphasize enough how it's a radically different state in comparison to prior that transition. 

Yes, the discussion isn't whether the self exists or not, since the classification between existent and nonexistent can only come from the self. The point is a total change in how experience is organized around it.

That is, you can position the self as secondary, not essential. What is essential is actual existence, and the self is something that occurs within it.

Obviously, the self is real, since it exists. It is a human function that integrates memory, prediction, social status, and the pursuit of success as a living organism. But the reality of what we are is not limited to that; rather, it is the fact of being within which other things occur this self. 

It's not like: ah, now I'm identified with the existence, then I think I'm that, but really being it now without any limitation. It's the only way because any trick wouldn't work. If the self produces suffering, it would still produce it despite your tricks, the only way is the real transcendence of the self and the only way to do it is the real openess to the absolute being. 

[Mellowmarsh]

6 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

The ego/self illusion never becomes satisfied. 

Unless the illusion can be satisfied with being unsatisfied. It’s all the same profundity. 

[Grateful Dead]

On 27.8.2026 at 2:25 PM, oOo said:

I can see from a personal lens however how one may see them as the same. Because its so experiential, and one's personal shift may have been a dramatic instance; so that becomes their reference frame, what they lead with. 

What have your own experiences been like?

Regarding my own experience: a glimpse into the boundless freedom and eternal peace of formless reality altered my perception of the world, and this triggered a gradual process of surrender.

What about your own experience? What is your take on it?

On 28.8.2026 at 3:09 AM, Sugarcoat said:

"Average human has mind ego right, so when that detaches then it’s permanent spiritual awakening (if it doesn’t reattach), what’s left is still center self, just not attached to a mind ego. Then if that center self dissapears too then that’s enlightenment" 

What you describe as permanent awakening, I view as stable observer consciousness, a state in which a subtle form of separation still exists as a center. For me, permanent awakening means a complete awakening from the dream of separation.

[VeganAwake]

9 hours ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Unless the illusion can be satisfied with being unsatisfied. It’s all the same profundity. 

It will eventually become unsatisfied with being satisfied with being unsatisfied 

[Mellowmarsh]

Just now, VeganAwake said:

It will eventually become unsatisfied with being satisfied with being unsatisfied 

😂 

[VeganAwake]

4 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

😂 

But then of course after a while it can become satisfied of being unsatisfied with being satisfied of being unsatisfied 

[Mellowmarsh]

9 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

But then of course after a while it can become satisfied of being unsatisfied with being satisfied of being unsatisfied 

It must be the two way mirror effect. Lol

[VeganAwake]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If the self produces suffering, it would still produce it despite your tricks, the only way is the real transcendence of the self and the only way to do it is the real openess to the absolute being. 

What you're not taking into account is, if there's no one left identifying as that, who would suffer?

Edited 20 hours ago by VeganAwake

[Sugarcoat]

On 2026-08-29 at 5:49 AM, VeganAwake said:

Oh yeah, I believe it. With me things usually felt slow and meticulous, but some things seemed very quick also.

In 2015 I changed a lot of things in my life. I started eating very clean and healthy, meditating almost daily, doing yoga and mindfulness practice/positive affirmations.

I thought I was awesome and I felt awesome. My mind was very clear and calm especially from the meditation.

Eventually though everything become kind of ordinary and my career really hadn't advanced comparatively to my peers. I started really judging myself negatively. It was almost like an ego backlash or something.

It was such a radical shift in perspective that I started investigating closely what was the cause.

Self introspection can be very revealing.

The ego/self illusion never becomes satisfied.  Just that recognition alone can be seemingly profound.

Many shifts can happen within it yes...the shift of all shifts was when it broke and I was now outside of it and no longer in it, but still here, because as I said theres not just what the average human has then nothing, there is a self beyond that mental clump tension nightmare. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

On 2026-08-29 at 10:36 AM, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, the discussion isn't whether the self exists or not, since the classification between existent and nonexistent can only come from the self. The point is a total change in how experience is organized around it.

That is, you can position the self as secondary, not essential. What is essential is actual existence, and the self is something that occurs within it.

Obviously, the self is real, since it exists. It is a human function that integrates memory, prediction, social status, and the pursuit of success as a living organism. But the reality of what we are is not limited to that; rather, it is the fact of being within which other things occur this self. 

It's not like: ah, now I'm identified with the existence, then I think I'm that, but really being it now without any limitation. It's the only way because any trick wouldn't work. If the self produces suffering, it would still produce it despite your tricks, the only way is the real transcendence of the self and the only way to do it is the real openess to the absolute being. 

Yea I also focus on the experience when describing. 

It makes sense what you're saying, for example the last part it's a telling sign when someone claims enlightenment but then shows they suffer typically egoically so it's obvious they're not speaking from that place. 

What you describe sounds like some form of enlightened state, but the level that is right below human seems to me when you do experience yourself as in the head/body but that is like a space which within it occurs the internal activities.

[Sugarcoat]

17 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

What you describe as permanent awakening, I view as stable observer consciousness, a state in which a subtle form of separation still exists as a center. For me, permanent awakening means a complete awakening from the dream of separation.

That description is spot on to me and is basically what I mean.

Then it's just a difference in what to call it....why not "permanent awakening", and then no-self = enlightenment?

It's not just me, people use the word "spiritual awakening" (my impression is many use it to describe some form of glimpse then perspective shift that follows, thats why I have to specify with "permanent" when I write), if thats referring to non duality then its not accurate in case someone had glimpse into consciousness instead. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Breakingthewall]

15 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

What you're not taking into account is, if there's no one left identifying as that, who would suffer?

Well, psychological suffering is always possible, even you have transcended the ego, it doesn't means that it disappear absolutely. In hard circumstances it would appear again.

So, if psychological suffering is happening, who would suffer? No one? But suffering still is happening, and its psychology. For example if the doctor tells you, or me, that we have cancer in the brain. Would you suffering happen or not? In my case for sure

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

What you describe sounds like some form of enlightened state, but the level that is right below human seems to me when you do experience yourself as in the head/body but that is like a space which within it occurs the internal activities.

In my case, I can describe it clearly. My normal psychological state, my human identity, includes hating a good part of my family with sick passion, contemplating what they were like, and feeling a kind of crushing sadness at the fact that such low and vile people exist, that I am related to them, and the malignant dynamics they imposed when they could. This translates into self-hatred, or rather, the feeling that I should be dead.

I mean, in the past I wake up in the morning and this feeling appears like a wave. It's basically as if I suffered from a mental illness. This has forced me to find a way to overcome it.

Before, I used the method of avoidance, but in the end, it's useless. So, what I can now do quite easily is enter a mental state in which the current reality, this moment now, is the alive reality. For this to happen, the duality between me as a subject and the perceived experience must disappear completely, because if it remains, no matter how much I try to tell myself that this is real, that subject will quickly be crushed by hatred and that. 

The breaking down of the subject-object duality is an energetic shift that occurs in the psyche and is reversible, but once you have broken the absolute subject-object barrier, it becomes increasingly easier to reopen the framework and break down the boundaries. Then, when the present moment is total and completely unstructured, it is perceived as alive, luminous, bright, and free. And the ego identity is perceived as secondary. It's real, and it's important to understand your reality in order to relate with the other people as clean as it's possible, without tricks and avoidances. But it's energetic load that defines it as absolute lose its reality. It doesn't define you because you are indefinible, you are the flow that is happening, the life that is living, the openess that is manifesting and this reality now, and all it's power is clearly felt. The difference is absolute. In one side you are dead, in other, alive. 

[Grateful Dead]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

That description is spot on to me and is basically what I mean.

Then it's just a difference in what to call it....why not "permanent awakening", and then no-self = enlightenment?

It's not just me, people use the word "spiritual awakening" (my impression is many use it to describe some form of glimpse then perspective shift that follows, thats why I have to specify with "permanent" when I write), if thats referring to non duality then its not accurate in case someone had glimpse into consciousness instead. 

Okay, yes, I understand. In the sense that most people, including here in the forum, use the word awakening, you are right. They mean a glimpse into observer consciousness, and stabilizing that would be considered permanent awakening from that perspective.

For me, however, as the word suggests, awakening means the end of the dream: either a brief glimpse into absolute reality or, in the case of permanent awakening, the complete withdrawal into formless Being. From my perspective, no mind that is still communicating as a human body is permanently awakened/enlightened.

[Mellowmarsh]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

. Would you suffering happen or not? In my case for sure

Is it your suffering though?