How did the ( Illusion ) the sense of separation start?

[Mellowmarsh]

Any claim claiming there is no beginning or end, is a start. The start of knowledge. 
 

 

[Sugarcoat]

On 2026-06-16 at 8:05 AM, Mellowmarsh said:

Yes, there’s an awareness of sensation.

 

What arises in that moment feels like a movement, but it’s a movement of the unmoved. 

Any feeling of boundary?

[Sugarcoat]

On 2026-06-16 at 2:44 AM, Osaid said:

Totally. Psychedelics can become a red herring because of all the crazy experiences that can happen. Humans imagine all sorts of crazy things from a sober state, imagine what they would imagine from a psychedelic experience, lol.

That's interesting.

Yeah some teachers like to talk about steps and phases, which is fine I guess. It's a different way of communicating it. From my POV, enlightenment doesn't come and go. Ideas about yourself do, since they are based on you moving through time. Therefore, if you stabilize yourself in the timeless, then it becomes obvious that you don't come and go either, and therein you "merge with it". But it's not like anything about you changes. You simply had temporal ideas about yourself which were seen to be fleeting, and then you realize you were what was always present.

Yeah, I would say it's alive in the sense that everything is recognized to be completely new or undefined. There is a sense of freedom in that.

So instead of "ugh I've experienced this so many times", it's more like "wow I'm experiencing this".

Everything is spontaneous, in truth. 

Choice makes it seem like there is another reality to choose from, but this is the only reality which is ever experienced. Choice is a conceptualization of what is happening, often for communication.

Ultimately, it literally doesn't matter whether you think you chose something or not. It doesn't change anything at all. The present moment is that free.

Late reply but just a lot going on

Yea I’ve thought how some mind stuff on psychedelics, someone might see it as profound because the psychedelic state is profound, but the mental stuff could still be just reflection of your regular mind so it’s not the most important thing 

 

Ok, but is there any sense of self for you? I also thought of enlightenment as permanent yes by definition 

“Everything is recognized as new” I guess it has to do with the mind being dissolved, becuase it’s the thing that kinda makes reality seem “known” or something. It projects onto reality 

I find “choice” being an experience, meaning it can seem to someone they are choosing or vice versa. But I intuit there’s not choice actually 

 

[Mellowmarsh]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Any feeling of boundary?

Yes, because part of the illusion that appears as the sense of being a separate self is to experience a boundary, for physical survival tactics. 
 

 

[Sugarcoat]

3 hours ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Yes, because part of the illusion that appears as the sense of being a separate self is to experience a boundary, for physical survival tactics. 
 

 

Same 

[Osaid]

On 6/18/2026 at 9:30 PM, Sugarcoat said:

Ok, but is there any sense of self for you?

There's just the present self, which is the only self. It's not a self as an individual or identity, though. It's like "everything all at once". 

On 6/18/2026 at 9:30 PM, Sugarcoat said:

“Everything is recognized as new” I guess it has to do with the mind being dissolved, becuase it’s the thing that kinda makes reality seem “known” or something. It projects onto reality 

Right, exactly.

The mind says "I came from the past and I did this and that" whereas the present experience quite clearly doesn't go anywhere or come from anywhere. So it's "new" because it's untouched by anything the mind says about it. The aspect which makes it seem old is the past, but the present is never the past.

On 6/18/2026 at 9:30 PM, Sugarcoat said:

I find “choice” being an experience, meaning it can seem to someone they are choosing or vice versa. But I intuit there’s not choice actually 

There's an experience of thinking about what you prefer to experience and then exercising that. In the sense that you can "choose" between coffee and tea on a menu without actually having either thing in front of you, and then you act according to the thought-based dilemma you present for yourself.

But this is not really based on a separate reality or chooser, since it is merely the activity of thinking. The idea that there is someone who chooses can only appear after the choice is already made, never before that. So experientially there is no causal hierarchy ever actually occurring.

Edited Saturday at 08:14 AM by Osaid

[Sugarcoat]

On 2026-06-20 at 10:09 AM, Osaid said:

There's just the present self, which is the only self. It's not a self as an individual or identity, though. It's like "everything all at once"

So basically whatever is going on in your “pov” (visual, physical sensation etc) is that “everything” that is the “self” you’re referring to

On 2026-06-20 at 10:09 AM, Osaid said:

 

Right, exactly.

The mind says "I came from the past and I did this and that" whereas the present experience quite clearly doesn't go anywhere or come from anywhere. So it's "new" because it's untouched by anything the mind says about it. The aspect which makes it seem old is the past, but the present is never the past.

 

So could you say thoughts return to their most basic function, appearing in the minds-eye (maybe not even that for you), rather than infiltrating reality or something?

On 2026-06-20 at 10:09 AM, Osaid said:

 

There's an experience of thinking about what you prefer to experience and then exercising that. In the sense that you can "choose" between coffee and tea on a menu without actually having either thing in front of you, and then you act according to the thought-based dilemma you present for yourself.

But this is not really based on a separate reality or chooser, since it is merely the activity of thinking. The idea that there is someone who chooses can only appear after the choice is already made, never before that. So experientially there is no causal hierarchy ever actually occurring.

You say “the idea that there is someone who chooses”, you mean the “choser” is an idea rather than lived experience? 
Maybe you’ve already implicitly answered this somewhere idk but I’ll ask anyways 

[Osaid]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

So basically whatever is going on in your “pov” (visual, physical sensation etc) is that “everything” that is the “self” you’re referring to

Yeah. The whole experience, not a part of it.

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

So could you say thoughts return to their most basic function, appearing in the minds-eye (maybe not even that for you), rather than infiltrating reality or something?

Yeah, there isn't a self the thoughts are about, there's just the self that's currently aware of it. Previously it seemed that there were things to worry about in the future and stuff like that, but it's recognized that there's essentially just one thought presently occurring.

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

You say “the idea that there is someone who chooses”, you mean the “choser” is an idea rather than lived experience? 
Maybe you’ve already implicitly answered this somewhere idk but I’ll ask anyways 

Yeah, it's an idea or concept. You can't actually find a chooser in your experience, because it's the implication of something other than what is currently happening.