Nothing important is happening

[Breakingthewall]

19 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

"concepts" are like the minor aspect to me, the major one is just this lived "sense" of self . Could say "experience" of self too, but it's just more fundamental than thoughts for me (seems). 

Interesting you say "descriptions from other people" because for me I feel it's this super internal thing rather . 

 

Exactly, concepts arise about the reality of the self; they are not what create the self. I don't understand why non-duality teachers say the self is an idea when it is a fundamental structure.

The self arises when there is inside/outside, an exchange of information, and awareness of being. It is impossible for consciousness to exist without the self, because the very existence of consciousness implies being aware that you are, and that is precisely what the self is.

[Sugarcoat]

22 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Exactly, concepts arise about the reality of the self; they are not what create the self. I don't understand why non-duality teachers say the self is an idea when it is a fundamental structure.

The self arises when there is inside/outside, an exchange of information, and awareness of being. It is impossible for consciousness to exist without the self, because the very existence of consciousness implies being aware that you are, and that is precisely what the self is.

Yea that is a good way to articulate it. It feels like you’re saying what I’ve been thinking too, also that second paragraph. because I’ve been a little confused when I’ve pondered this, because I have heard people use these terms “awakening” etc etc but then I feel some similarity to them (not talking about those total non dualists now), and then I wonder “but what am I then, what do they even mean”.  But yea in particular this self vs no self thing has been like “hmmmmm”

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

38 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

😂 LoL

 

Jim Newman morphed into Jim Oldman that died and emerged as Jim Noman. Lol 

 

He is funny so it’s funny to joke like that. But yea maybe he’d find it funny too if we said it on his “event” or whatever it’s called

Actually I looked him up recently and saw he was in my city last month I missed 🤣🤣🤣

[Mellowmarsh]

45 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

He is funny so it’s funny to joke like that. But yea maybe he’d find it funny too if we said it on his “event” or whatever it’s called

Actually I looked him up recently and saw he was in my city last month I missed 🤣🤣🤣

Yeah I like Jim, his laughter is so genuine straight from the belly. It’s so contagious.

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

There is knowledge of existing as a fact, or not? 

When you say "I", you don't mean vegan awake with all his history, you mean the fact of knowing that you are. You can cover this fact with a lot of characteristics, a heavy ego, or remove everything except the fact of knowing that you are, but in both cases there is an i, because the I is a process, a structure that happens that is  fact of being knowing that is 

Who knows it?

What exactly is that which claims to know these so-called facts?

 

I just wouldn't describe it as knowledge.

It's more like a description of reality after all the conditioned beliefs, concepts, stories, assumptions crumble away. But I can understand how that would seem like a knowing of sorts.

I would admit a master auto mechanic has the knowledge about the total functioning of certain vehicles. It's happening directly in front of him, he can see everything live in action as it happens.

But I don't actually know reality, & I'm certainly not the totality of it. 

It was here doing its thing long before this body learned its human name and how to go pee pee in the toilet without splashing everywhere.

[Breakingthewall]

24 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

But I don't actually know reality, & I'm certainly not the totality of it. 

Rumi said: you are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop. 

Do you understand what he means? In any part there is the totality, because the totality can't be divided, because it's total. 

About the self, any consciousness means knowing of being. In fact that's the definition of consciousness. If you are in anesthesia you don't know that you are, even you are, then there is no self, but if you are awake there is consciousness of being and that is the self.

The most empty consciousness, the meditative state , is when only the fact of I am remains. You could ask, who knows that? The fact of knowing creates the self because the self is the fact of knowing the fact of being. 

As consciousness is a possibility (as we can see) then the self is a fundamental property of the reality. The self is not the reality, it's the reality expressed as a self, knowing that it is

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

Yea that is a good way to articulate it. It feels like you’re saying what I’ve been thinking too, also that second paragraph. because I’ve been a little confused when I’ve pondered this, because I have heard people use these terms “awakening” etc etc but then I feel some similarity to them (not talking about those total non dualists now), and then I wonder “but what am I then, what do they even mean”.  But yea in particular this self vs no self thing has been like “hmmmmm”

 

 

Imo there are two problems with the non dualistic paradigm. First that they assume that duality is an illusion, second, that reality is consciousness. 

Duality is a structural fact, it's the same if everything is ultimately the same, duality is happening. It's not an illusion, it's the form of reality now. 

And consciousness is an arising, not the reality. And arises due the fact of structural duality. It's reality perceiving itself. Perceive implies a self that appears when the reality adopts a mode that is a representation of a change of information between two separate realities. Both could be essentially the same, but now they are separate. 

The paradigm oneness and illusion leads to confusion, to get stuck in a frozen state where you are closed to the real power of what is. Flat, empty, limited 

[Mellowmarsh]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The paradigm oneness and illusion leads to confusion, to get stuck in a frozen state where you are closed to the real power of what is. Flat, empty, limited 

This happens because the egoic mind struggles to process two completely different ways of viewing reality simultaneously.

For example: You cannot be and not be at the exact same time. But paradoxically you can know being and not being is the way the mind plays out. You conceptually understand the duality of birth and death. Appearance and Disappearance.

You can also intellectually understand everything is "one," yet you still experience the practical necessity of functioning as a distinct individual. As the Rumi quote drop/ocean states..

Rather than a trap, confusion can act as a bridge.  Bridging the gap in understanding the illusion of separate individual experience to be real, but not what it fundamentally seems to be. 

Switching context is the key.

[Sugarcoat]

9 hours ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Yeah I like Jim, his laughter is so genuine straight from the belly. It’s so contagious.

Ahahhahh its that "non dual" laughter 😂

Edited 11 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

17 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I hear you, funny enough I havent listened to that kind of stuff for years, because i did use it as an excuse to do nothing. 

But by some miracle I listened to one of his videos a couple of weeks ago, and I did have a bit of a boom moment. I was like OMG, this character actually isn't real. And the more I have been feeling into this, the more my whole system is beginning to relax. I guess there's a perfect timing as to when the message actually penetrates. Jim's message very much links up with Leo's message about looking at your hand.

When you say "relax" what do you mean? Ive experienced profound relaxations too, in general, and for me it can occur at different levels, energetic, muscular etc

[VeganAwake]

"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown"   

- William Shakespeare 

Edited 6 hours ago by VeganAwake

[VeganAwake]

13 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Rumi said: you are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop. 

Do you understand what he means? In any part there is the totality, because the totality can't be divided, because it's total. 

About the self, any consciousness means knowing of being. In fact that's the definition of consciousness. If you are in anesthesia you don't know that you are, even you are, then there is no self, but if you are awake there is consciousness of being and that is the self.

The most empty consciousness, the meditative state , is when only the fact of I am remains. You could ask, who knows that? The fact of knowing creates the self because the self is the fact of knowing the fact of being. 

As consciousness is a possibility (as we can see) then the self is a fundamental property of the reality. The self is not the reality, it's the reality expressed as a self, knowing that it is

It's definitely an interesting belief system.

What is the key takeaway if there is one?

What is the importance of recognizing:  "the self is not the reality, it's the reality expressed as a self, knowing that it is:

What does it matter and whom does is matter for?

Is there any benefit to this apparent realization, or is it just truth for truth sake?

 

[Mellowmarsh]

8 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Ahahhahh its that "non dual" laughter 😂

Hahaha, I can’t get over how he manages to keep a straight face during his talks. His demeanour is so nonchalant, and then out of the blue he’ll  just spontaneously burst into a fit of laughter. 😂 

 

Yes, it’s that “ non dual “ joke that never wears off.

Edited 3 hours ago by Mellowmarsh

[Mellowmarsh]

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown"   

- William Shakespeare 

Great quote.

 

[Wilhelm44]

10 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

When you say "relax" what do you mean? Ive experienced profound relaxations too, in general, and for me it can occur at different levels, energetic, muscular etc

I mean relaxation of the mechanisms that are happening on behalf of the character, like anxiety, worry, control, paranoia, resistance etc.

Since I really began to sense that the character is not real, its been feeling like a nice unravelling, like when the wrappings around a mummy just keep on rolling off freely.

Edited 1 hour ago by Wilhelm44

[Mellowmarsh]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I mean relaxation of the mechanisms that are happening on behalf of the character, like anxiety, worry, control, paranoia, resistance etc.

Since I really began to sense that the character is not real, its been feeling like a nice unravelling, like when the wrappings around a mummy just keep on rolling off freely.

Nice!👌 

 

The body and all physical objects exist in reality. But “self” is not the body. It is not an object; it does not exist in reality. There is no “self” separate from what’s happening, no little broken-off piece of life that is a special “me” that you own and can direct and control, separate from the whole.
 

Drop the clinging to a control you never had.

[Wilhelm44]

4 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Nice!👌 

 

The body and all physical objects exist in reality. But “self” is not the body. It is not an object; it does not exist in reality. There is no “self” separate from what’s happening, no little broken-off piece of life that is a special “me” that you own and can direct and control, separate from the whole.
 

Drop the clinging to a control you never had.

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

It's definitely an interesting belief system.

What is the key takeaway if there is one?

What is the importance of recognizing:  "the self is not the reality, it's the reality expressed as a self, knowing that it is:

What does it matter and whom does is matter for?

Is there any benefit to this apparent realization, or is it just truth for truth sake?

 

Then the only thing that is allowed to say is repeating that the self is an illusion? How could be the conversation? For example?

The self is an illusion? 

The self is an illusion!!!

Yeahhhb the self is an illusion!!!

Is an illusion?

What?

The self!!!

Ahhh yes the self is an illusion. 

Because any other idea will be humiliated by condescendence. 

Well, now I understand that spirituality, its let's say, special 

Btw, rumi was a clown right? Poor idiot, he didn't know the only TRUTH. 

THE SELF IS AN ILLUSION.

Absolutely forbidden to say anything else. 

Edited 30 minutes ago by Breakingthewall

[Mellowmarsh]

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the self is an illusion?

Yes, because the self never tells itself it’s a self. 
 

Self exists as a concept known, and that which is known knows nothing, it’s like illusion knowing it’s an illusion.