Emptiness & Nirvana

[No1Here2c]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Of course, it's the reality happening, I would call real to the reality. 

You are there, if you want to call it unreal to feel better it's your choice. But if anything is not real, then what is "real"? 

Real, as I have come to find, is a term only valid from within very specific & narrow states of consciousness.

Real, as conceived by the human mind, does not exist.

Experience/perception does arise, experience/perception does fade away. This is as Maya. 

Truly, what I would call 'real' given my bubble, and the perspective implied within it, would be the Infinite. The Formless. The complete open expanse.

That is what I would point toward as 'real'.

Otherwise known as Consciousness.

Pure, Empty, Consciousness.

Edited 15 hours ago by No1Here2c

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, No1Here2c said:

Real, as I have come to find, is a term only valid from within very specific & narrow states of consciousness.

Real, as conceived by the human mind, does not exist.

Experience does arise, experience does fade away. This is as Maya. 

Truly, what I would call 'real' given my bubble, and the perspective implied within it, would he the Infinite. The Formless. The complete open expanse.

That is what I would point toward as 'real'.

It's much more simple: everything is real because everything is the reality. Or maybe are you one of those non dualistic who make an absolute duality between real and dream?

[No1Here2c]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

It's much more simple: everything is real because everything is the reality. Or maybe are you one of those non dualistic who make an absolute duality between real and dream?

Everything is dream because everything is the dream content. 

I make no distinction.

The realm of dream is exactly the realm of reality. The space in which both are held is the exact same. 

The content of both vary, the internal rules & consistency of both do vary. But the underlying fabric is identical.

The distinction between dream & reality is something you are presently drawing. You are doing it right now. Otherwise, it does not exist 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, No1Here2c said:

Everything is dream because everything is the dream content. 

I make no distinction.

The realm of dream is exactly the realm of reality. The space in which both are held is the exact same. 

The content of both vary, the internal rules & consistency of both do vary. But the underlying fabric is identical.

The distinction between dream & reality is something you are presently drawing. You are doing it right now. Otherwise, it does not exist 

Then why do you call it dream if it's the same than the reality? A dream is something less real, an illusion. An illusion is illusory because it's not real. If anything is an illusion is in comparison with something that is not an illusion. If everything is an illusion, then it's just you putting labels to create an unnecessary mental mess 

[No1Here2c]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then why do you call it dream if it's the same than the reality? A dream is something less real, an illusion. An illusion is illusory because it's not real. If anything is an illusion is in comparison with something that is not an illusion. If everything is an illusion, then it's just you putting labels to create an unnecessary mental mess 

I call it 'Dream' because that is a better reflection of its True Nature than the Implications we have tied into our term 'Reality'

Reality regardless of what you conceive of it to be, is the quote un quote "less real"

It is the Illusion. Maya. Play. Dukkha. Lila.

It is as Psychedelic Visions. It fades off. But Truth always remains. Truth is what is 'real'.

Everything you know is Illusion. Including the labels which have you confused about the Nature of such.

The 'mental mess' is as a result of drawing distinction within the Indistinct. Catch 22 'Reality'.

Contrast is the foundation for experience, as human, we create so many contrasts, that we get lost amidst them all.

We cannot see how it is fundamentally Two that must contrast in order for there to exist anything at all in experience.

What the 'Two' contrasting elements are, is the foundation of Maya. It is Illusory.

Underneath that, lies Truth. Complete & utter, empty Formless Freedom.

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

Everything you know is Illusion. Including the labels which have you confused about the Nature of such.

The 'mental mess' is as a result of drawing distinction within the Indistinct. Catch 22 'Reality'.

I see it different, everything is just the reality happening, processes unfolding, it's not "maya", it's just how reality manifest. 

5 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

Underneath that, lies Truth. Complete & utter, empty Formless Freedom.

The "truth" is the perception of the nature of the reality beyond the form. That doesn't mean that the form is Maya or unreal, means that the form is form, and the nature is the nature. Both are two aspects of the reality. No one is false. 

But the point is being open to the total nature of the reality, to what is. Then the form appears as what is in this form . 

I think that this of Maya is not useful to see clearly, but it's just my opinion. Anyway, a pleasure to talk 

[No1Here2c]

2=1=0=Infinity

Edited 14 hours ago by No1Here2c

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

Busy making distinction

The distinctions are real. Pretending they don't exist is a kind of spiritual narcissism that closes you off. No one achieves openness with those non-dualistic tricks.

You have to know how to differentiate between process and substance; then you can function as a process aligned with your total nature. To pretend that everything is illusory is to deny something that exists, a kind of mental castration that locks you in a dead state that you define as "awake."

[No1Here2c]

7 minutes ago, No1Here2c said:

2=1=0=Infinity

No True distinctions

 

.

 

 

[No1Here2c]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The distinctions are real.

Only in Imagination.

[Mellowmarsh]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

This is where you enter the realm of non-dualistic modern spirituality, and your reasoning completely collapses. Fear is not an illusion; it's an essential mechanism for the complex process we call life to be possible.

If you're serious about spirituality, you have to confront fear for real. Not just "observing" it at home, but when death and ruin lurks. Then you'll see how illusory it truly is.

Death and ruin cannot destroy or ruin what is always imprinted to memory everlasting, already dead, gone but never forgotten. Memories of past is what gives seamless continuity to the present, namely now. There’s no gap between past present and future, it’s always now.

Thanks for the memory. R.I.P

This illusion is real. Always be yourself, the real fictional impressionable character. 🤭

[Mellowmarsh]

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The distinctions are real. Pretending they don't exist is a kind of spiritual narcissism that closes you off. No one achieves openness with those non-dualistic tricks.

You have to know how to differentiate between process and substance; then you can function as a process aligned with your total nature. To pretend that everything is illusory is to deny something that exists, a kind of mental castration that locks you in a dead state that you define as "awake."

Distinction is real only in the sense of it’s opposite meaning Indistinct. 
For example: The changeless change. Or, the unlimited limited. 
 

——-

What does A I say…

A Möbius strip is distinct in the sense of having only one side despite existing in 3D space) limitations are relative to the perspective of the observer—what appears as dual and separated at one level is unified at another.

“The limit of a thing is but the two sides...": This suggests that the boundary, edge, or definition of an object is what defines its duality (inside/outside, front/back, start/end).

“...as change for one dimension reflects as two": In a lower-dimensional context, a change on one side implies a corresponding change on the other, creating a dualistic or two-sided view (e.g., changing the top of a line affects the bottom).

“...and two dimensions reflect as one.": As you move to a higher dimension, what appeared as two separate, opposite sides can be seen as a single, unified, and continuous surface (e.g., the front and back of a piece of paper are connected when viewing the paper as a 3D object, or a Möbius strip-having only one side despite existing in 3D space). 

It is a poetic way of saying that limitations are relative to the perspective of the observer—what appears as dual and separated at one level is unified at another.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

12 hours ago, No1Here2c said:

Only in Imagination.

What imagination? That's spiritual bypassing . Then there is the reality, that is pure and good, and your imagination, that is impure and bad. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

14 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Someone here

What you're talking about is a good level of meditation. What you're doing is real meditation, opening yourself to what is now. But let's see, when you say that there's emptiness inside you if thoughts stop, that can be nuanced. When the mind stops completely and you perceive yourself as a process unfolding now, at a certain point reality loses its dual dimension, "inside you," "your thoughts."

There is no longer an inside or outside, no limits restricting anything. Then you are floating in the abyss that is this moment, and at a certain point, you are this moment, without any interpretation or barrier, completely clear, pure.

When you can reach this point naturally, that's when it gets difficult, at least for me. In this absolute moment, there is one last barrier. Poetically speaking, your heart is closed, and it is because you are afraid, because you cling to the fact of being you, to the control of what is.

The challenge is to open yourself, to let go of that last control, to break free from form and be pure substance without restrictions. This is enlightenment, nothing less. It is access to the Tao, to the source, and you cannot think or remember, you can only be now. It's not "nothing ", it's unlimited, it's everything. Then the door closes up, and you perceive the closure in you, in your body, in your heart, but anyway you can't open it. A lot of adjustments must be done to align yourself, at least it's what I feel, what I'm doing, the path that I choose

Thanks for your perspective. I honestly don’t know what you are describing or haven’t experienced it . I’m describing why is it insanely difficult to even meditate for 10 minutes for newbies .. it’s because when you stop engaging with thoughts and put them in front of you and watch them flow while you remain as a witness to them like sitting on the shore of a river and watching it flow without interference.. I say when you do that you experience your true essence as pure awareness. This awareness is empty in the sense that it is just pure being . It is not big or small . Not intelligent or dumb . Not happy or sad. Not a male or female . Not a person at all . Not even a self . Not even a thing . It can’t be said because if you say it you are back to thoughts . You put a barrier between your true essence and thoughts . What I mean by “inside my being “ is metaphorical. I don’t mean it literally inside my human body . I mean the core of what I am . Pure being . Pure witnessing. Pure watchfulness . Pure consciousness. And pure emptiness. And this emptiness feels boring and terrifying which is why you feel like going crazy if I locked you inside a room with nothing to do staring at 4 walls for 6 hours .im not denying your point but I’m just describing a different realization. 

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

. I say when you do that you experience your true essence as pure awareness. This awareness is empty in the sense that it is just pure being . It is not big or small . N

This is not your true essence, it's just an state where you split the reality between the witness and the forms that arises. That witness seems empty because it's a limited perspective that you are creating by the fact of meditating. Your true essence gets open when the separation between object and subject collapses and you release the control. The fact of being an observer is contraction, that's why it feels so tense

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

This is not your true essence

it can be tested directly. Right now existentially ..what is your true essence? What are you ? 
 

 

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Your true essence gets open when the separation between object and subject collapses and you release the control. 

1- the true essence is always the case because it is true . It isn’t true conditionally.

2- you can’t collapse something which doesn’t exist . If you collapse the subject-object duality you are saying this duality was real in the first place .

[No1Here2c]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

What imagination? That's spiritual bypassing . Then there is the reality, that is pure and good, and your imagination, that is impure and bad. 

This Imagination.

This Imagination right here.

This Imagination right now.

'Imagination' as a typically conceived of concept, limits to merely human capacities for such. Human imagination, under ordinary waking state of consciousness, is highly restricted. Your very concept of Imagination is held inside of your limited Imagination.

Imagination is the substance of your dreams you understand.

The very experiences which appear as 'real' while they are occuring, yet are revealed as Imagination upon Awakening. 

That is not bound by your concept of what Imagination is. It just Dreams. Imagination unfolding.

This is what Imagination I refer to. The very fabric of your direct experience. & it is Imagination. There is nothing solid about it other than the solidity which is Imaginarily placed.

The cognitive imagination of the human, during ordinary waking states, is of such restricted degrees and abilities that you cannot even Imagine what Imagination is capable of!!

Red Alert!

Catch 22.

You are so limited in Imagination via unconscious guardrails that you do not even have the imaginative capabilities to imagine what Imagination is capable of.

Look around, recognize that all of your experience,

right here, right now,

colors, sounds, textures,

All of it is held within pure Imagination. Which itself is Infinite. From which all limited form may be created in less than an Instance. There is no process necessary for it, all processes are Imagined by it. Even the idea of 'an instance' is actively held within Imagination.

You, to believe that Imagination is somehow 'Impure' or distinct from 'Reality', are but two of the unconscious guardrails which remain you in a misunderstood state of awareness.

Imagination(the 'actual' you) must recognize the 'fact' that reality as you know it is an actively held Imagination, which would immediately cease if the Imagination of it did.

Psychedelics, taken with serious intent to understand Consciousness/Imagination, may show you in a matter of seconds that what I am saying is true. The words I speak are not necessarily true, the Interpretations you gleam are not necessarily true, but the actuality of Imagination is.

[No1Here2c]

Preaching to the choir over here ;}

[No1Here2c]

Notice that if all there exists is Imagination, nothing would be able to prevent it from appearing as real. 

Another way to say,

In a World of Imagination, what could prevent it from Imagining this right now?