Is taking children to church a form of child abuse?

[Monster Energy]

24 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is putting your kids in school abuse? School surely affects their beliefs, and they usually don't have much of a choice whether to go or not.

In my opinion, yes, school is abuse.

 

[Monster Energy]

@Natasha Tori Maru Great point!

[Natasha Tori Maru]

23 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Great point!

You used AI for that reply didn't you, dirty dog huehuehuehue 🤣

Fucked no matter the action we take, someone will end up abused! I suppose the next logical way to float this is harm minimisation. But then - determinism. Don't need to care, cos not responsible as I have no free will. Look at all the mental twisties and self deception strategies available! No wonder people end up fucked in their own mind mazes, justifying all sorts of actions - or inactions.

As an aside - do you consider most violations of sovereignty as a 'negative', regardless of age of consent? This topic comes across as you engaging in a contemplation dyad of sorts. Only with many users. It is difficult to make out your stance as you appear to be refining it as the conversations progresses.

 

[gettoefl]

If you think religion is child abuse,

maybe broaden your definition of religion.

EVERYONE has a religion

and, naturally, passes it on to their kids.

[Hatfort]

3 hours ago, Monster Energy said:

You’re narrowing “abuse” too much.

Kids don’t choose how they’re raised.

Freedom also includes being allowed to question what you’re taught.

No, I'm not narrowing the word, it has a meaning, and I'm all about being flexible, but up to a reasonable limit. Church is boring as fuck for children, I went to it, but that's not abuse. Sending kids to school is not abuse either, as you said in another comment. 

Kids not only don't choose how they are raised, but they can't. You can't just leave a baby in the forest and let it raise itself. Parents will make the decisions for him, and hopefully raise him to be an independent adult one day. Obviously parents make mistakes too, but when it goes too far, like neglect or abuse, society and the system usually punish them. 

Of course, you can question what you were taught, you should. Most men do that once an adult, revise which things taught by their parents work for them, and which not. That's kind of the natural process.

[Monster Energy]

19 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You used AI for that reply didn't you, dirty dog huehuehuehue 🤣

Fucked no matter the action we take, someone will end up abused! I suppose the next logical way to float this is harm minimisation. But then - determinism. Don't need to care, cos not responsible as I have no free will. Look at all the mental twisties and self deception strategies available! No wonder people end up fucked in their own mind mazes, justifying all sorts of actions - or inactions.

As an aside - do you consider most violations of sovereignty as a 'negative', regardless of age of consent? This topic comes across as you engaging in a contemplation dyad of sorts. Only with many users. It is difficult to make out your stance as you appear to be refining it as the conversations progresses.

 

I don’t think it is always wrong to force someone against their will, but as I said, it depends on the context. A child has a lower level of awareness than an adult, so it makes sense that adults should have more decision-making power. However, my main concern is not allowing a child to question things. That is actually my biggest issue. For example, if a parent says school is important and the child asks why, and the parent replies that it is important for a good life, I think that can be wrong if it shuts down further questioning. At the same time, you might simplify or adjust explanations if a child is very rebellious towards society, but there needs to be a balance. Still, I’m not even sure whether what I’m trying to describe is actually possible to achieve.

 

[Monster Energy]

3 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

EVERYONE has a religion

 

False 

[Willy Phallicus]

When you look at how many things are faith based (economics, politics, evolution etc) yeah everyone is operating under some kind of religious doctrine or paradigm.  Even atheism is an opiate of the masses.

[gettoefl]

1 minute ago, Monster Energy said:

False 

Broaden your definition. Can you define religion?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Monster Energy thanks for sharing. You dislike gatekeeping knowledge? Or blunting curiosity? 

I admit, I was that terrible child who incessantly wanted to know why. Would never move an inch without knowing precise reasons why I must do such-and-such. Luckily my father has the same habit, so entertained my questions constantly.

Edited 4 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Monster Energy]

3 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

No, I'm not narrowing the word, it has a meaning, and I'm all about being flexible, but up to a reasonable limit. Church is boring as fuck for children, I went to it, but that's not abuse. Sending kids to school is not abuse either, as you said in another comment. 

Kids not only don't choose how they are raised, but they can't. You can't just leave a baby in the forest and let it raise itself. Parents will make the decisions for him, and hopefully raise him to be an independent adult one day. Obviously parents make mistakes too, but when it goes too far, like neglect or abuse, society and the system usually punish them. 

Of course, you can question what you were taught, you should. Most men do that once an adult, revise which things taught by their parents work for them, and which not. That's kind of the natural process.

You don’t really understand religion if you think it is only about community. Telling children not to question their faith is wrong and mentally abusive. Saying that someone will be eternally tortured for stealing a candy bar is wrong and abusive. You are a really embarrassing person. You don’t understand deep things, only superficial ones. You should be ashamed.

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, Willy Phallicus said:

When you look at how many things are faith based (economics, politics, evolution etc) yeah everyone is operating under some kind of religious doctrine or paradigm.  Even atheism is an opiate of the masses.

You could replace all these synonyms with belief 

[Hatfort]

3 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

You don’t really understand religion if you think it is only about community. Telling children not to question their faith is wrong and mentally abusive. Saying that someone will be eternally tortured for stealing a candy bar is wrong and abusive. You are a really embarrassing person. You don’t understand deep things, only superficial ones. You should be ashamed.

Okay, calm down. Those personal remarks are out of place, and not truthful.

I'm not a religious man, and I don't think religious education is ideal, but I know in what world I live in. I take the freedom of people raising their children as they think is good, as the alternative would be what? Taking the children from them to be raised by whom? By you?

As said, parents make mistakes, every single one of them. Telling them about an eternal torture for stealing candy, you exaggerated a bit, but I understand what you say, it's not the best approach. There are better ways to teach a child not to steal.

[Monster Energy]

8 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Monster Energy thanks for sharing. You dislike gatekeeping knowledge? Or blunting curiosity? 

I admit, I was that terrible child who incessantly wanted to know why. Would never move an inch without knowing precise reasons why I must do such-and-such. Luckily my father has the same habit, so entertained my questions constantly.

It’s a difficult question, but I think it is both good and bad for parents to limit certain insights for children. However, curiosity must be allowed to exist and not be hidden, and as a parent, you should not get angry when a child is curious or asks many questions that may be difficult to answer.

As a child, I was actually not very curious about things. I probably just thought that adults knew best and didn’t really know what questions I should be asking.

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

If I were a parent, I would commit to making mistakes. No way around it. I would just aim to minimise them as much as possible, and instill critical thinking and good epistemic principles. Teach my child how to think. Not what to think.

[Monster Energy]

2 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Okay, calm down. Those personal remarks are out of place, and not truthful.

I'm not a religious man, and I don't think religious education is ideal, but I know in what world I live in. I take the freedom of people raising their children as they think is good, as the alternative would be what? Taking the children from them to be raised by whom? By you?

As said, parents make mistakes, every single one of them. Telling them about an eternal torture for stealing candy, you exaggerated a bit, but I understand what you say, it's not the best approach. There are better ways to teach a child not to steal.

Just because people make mistakes and it’s inevitable doesn’t mean we should stop trying to make fewer mistakes. You are basically saying that it’s not worth trying to change things because it’s impossible or difficult. And you still don’t agree with my opinions, or rather facts that you are not willing to acknowledge. You say it’s not abusive without explaining why. I don’t need to calm down, because you are really an embarrassing person. It’s people like you who ruin society. It’s people like you who stay silent and don’t want real progress. Or maybe you do, but then you need to understand reality and not hide from the truth.

 

[Monster Energy]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

If I were a parent, I would commit to making mistakes. No way around it. I would just aim to minimise them as much as possible, and instill critical thinking and good epistemic principles. Teach my child how to think. Not what to think.

Everyone should do this😇

[Hatfort]

4 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Just because people make mistakes and it’s inevitable doesn’t mean we should stop trying to make fewer mistakes. You are basically saying that it’s not worth trying to change things because it’s impossible or difficult. And you still don’t agree with my opinions, or rather facts that you are not willing to acknowledge. You say it’s not abusive without explaining why. I don’t need to calm down, because you are really an embarrassing person. It’s people like you who ruin society. It’s people like you who stay silent and don’t want real progress. Or maybe you do, but then you need to understand reality and not hide from the truth.

Stop the personal remarks now.

People make mistakes, I don't have any objection to trying to make fewer of them. I'm not saying what you said I said, you can read what I said in my comments above, so don't put your words in my lips.

You call abuse sending a kid to school, of course I don't agree with you, that's nonsense. The word abuse has a meaning, you are the one expanding it in your head, but the rest don't have to go through with that. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Monster Energy please don't make any more character judgements.

Stick to arguing points.

 

[Monster Energy]

3 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Stop the personal remarks now.

People make mistakes, I don't have any objection to trying to make fewer of them. I'm not saying what you said I said, you can read what I said in my comments above, so don't put your words in my lips.

You call abuse sending a kid to school, of course I don't agree with you, that's nonsense. The word abuse has a meaning, you are the one expanding it in your head, but the rest don't have to go through with that. 

Like I said, you don’t understand deep things. I know exactly what you meant, so stop twisting it. And you have not shown why my arguments are wrong, you just say they are wrong. You sound like this: ‘Why is the Bible true? Because it is true!’ Do you see how stupid that sounds? And somehow you’ve made religious people seem more thoughtful than you, which should be impossible, because your arguments and responses are worse than the Bible and I use the Bible as toilet paper. If you respond with something cringe again, then our conversation is over.