The obstacle for real meditation

[Grateful Dead]

On 2.5.2026 at 10:42 PM, Breakingthewall said:

When you say self maybe you mean the reality, without center, and really without self.

Yes, that's one way to put it, that's what I mean.

On 2.5.2026 at 10:42 PM, Breakingthewall said:

Yes more or less. The point for me is to achieve the dissolution of the barrier that separates the individual. When this barrier is active, which is the default state of a human being, you perceive yourself as an entity that can die. You can use mental tricks like reincarnation or transcendence, but it's always transcendence as an individual.

When the barrier falls, the individual reveals themselves as non-essential, as a facet of what is. Death is perceived as dissolution into what is, the dissolution of your form into your essence. The permanence of consciousness as "you" is irrelevant, even the permanece of consciousness. Unconsciousness is the same than consciousness in the sense that both are what is; there is nowhere to go. It is always this, what is.

At a certain point, being in a closed state is perceived as suffering, and the only viable state is the state without barriers. It must be your natural state; anything else is suffering.

I'm wondering, what exactly is your technique for breaking down these barriers?

As I see it your natural state must be there when you stop trying to do something or change it, so I understand as long as you're trying to achieve something, you're essentially preventing yourself. I do believe that one has to make an effort for a while to prepare the mind to wake up and recognize where the barriers are.

My view is that the closed state is something we actively maintain, and if you simply relax completely or stop doing anything, then you don't have to dissolve anything because you're not maintaining anything. Like the more I try to dissolve something, the more I'm actually strenghtening the one who wants it to fall. For me, simply relaxing into the 'closed' state or the fear is what eventually reveals it to be transparent. It’s not a mental trick, but a total surrender to whatever 'what is' looks like in this moment even if it looks like contraction.

Another way I like to describe it, is that I open my mind and surrender all my thoughts to God.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

My view is that the closed state is something we actively maintain, and if you simply relax completely or stop doing anything, then you don't have to dissolve anything because you're not maintaining anything

I'd say It's deeper than something that disappear if you relax. Maintaining control has many layers, the most obvious being comparative human identity, what is usually called the ego, manifested in thoughts.

But once that means nothing to you, and you can be fully present in the moment in total silence, without questioning anything or defining yourself, you are still maintaining control, closing yourself off with the need to be you, not as an ego but as an individual.

This is innate; you might say that if that's the case, let it be, but we are playing the game of total dissolution, and that door isn't going to open by itself. You have to open it, paradoxical as it may sound.

The way to do it is by first seeing it. In total silence, perceive the contraction, the fear of dissolution. Then you have to do something. It's not enough to let things be as they are; you have to fully feel that fear and surrender, open yourself to dissolution, want to be absorbed by reality, stop being you, renounce the individual truly. That's not easy, you have to feel exactly the resistance, the fear, and let the control go. The control is the center, the self, that encloses you in a shell.  

2 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

It’s not a mental trick, but a total surrender to whatever 'what is' looks like in this moment even if it looks like contraction.

Yes but for me the problem is that you can't surrender to fears and barriers that you don't perceive. The point of meditation is the real perception of your deep movement. Fear is powerful and always makes you move the attention to another plane, then you have to do the action of deciding stop avoidance, look directly.  

2 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

Another way I like to describe it, is that I open my mind and surrender all my thoughts to God.

But what is God? How do you know that there is something instead a mechanic process that happens in the absolute emptiness because they are possible , without any God, absolute, divinity or anything? You have to surrender also to the absolute nihilism. That's not easy. You could had a lot of moments of openess when you was totally aware that you are one with the totality, blah blah, but if now, exactly now, you are not open to it, you would think that maybe all was just an illusion and the reality is dead emptiness without bottom. You have to surrender to that shit again and again 

The point is that when you are closed, you are closed. Our minds could elaborate a lot but the landscape is dry, in black and white, dead, closed. In that landscape openess seems a remember that maybe was just a naive illusion. You can't remember the openess because you are closed (I'm talking about me not about you, probably anyone have different experience), you have to open the door, release the barrier that's closing. It's not easy, in fact usually it's impossible, you have to do a long work of alignment 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:20 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

On 3/5/2026 at 4:55 PM, gettoefl said:

From one angle, reality is awareness knowing; from another, reality is appearances arising. And they are not separate.

You could say that awareness knowing is included in reality arising, but not the opposite, then if you say that reality is awareness you are making a closure. Just my opinion, because all the authors talk about consciousness and that. I see it as a very obvious mistake, but who knows 

On 3/5/2026 at 4:55 PM, gettoefl said:

By identification I mean taking what arises, that is thoughts, feelings, even the sense of self, to be what I am.

If there is fear you could identifícate With it or not that there is still fear. 

On 3/5/2026 at 4:55 PM, gettoefl said:

So for me it’s not about holding onto the separate observer, but gently seeing that whatever I can notice isn’t ultimately what I am.

If you are in silence, that of be what you are or not has no meaning. There is fear, period. If you think that this fear is not you, you are introducing an enormous structure of thoughts that implies that the fear could be you or not, then the notion of "you". If there is no mental activity, you or not you means nothing, but fear means everything. The idea that if the thoughts stops the mind is free is not real. 

[Grateful Dead]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

This is innate; you might say that if that's the case, let it be, but we are playing the game of total dissolution, and that door isn't going to open by itself. You have to open it, paradoxical as it may sound.

I have a different view. The door is always wide open, but it's guarded by the ego, and you simply have to slip through quietly.

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The way to do it is by first seeing it. In total silence, perceive the contraction, the fear of dissolution. Then you have to do something. It's not enough to let things be as they are; you have to fully feel that fear and surrender, open yourself to dissolution, want to be absorbed by reality, stop being you, renounce the individual truly. That's not easy, you have to feel exactly the resistance, the fear, and let the control go. The control is the center, the self, that encloses you in a shell.  

Yes, I generally agree! The relaxation referred to the point where one has already perceived the barriers and realized that you do not want them. But I would say that once you see through the ego, it's easy, almost too easy. Because every time you perceive inner conflict or resistance you pretty much immediately know, "Ah, that's the ego trying to maintain the separation," and you know you don't want that, so you simply open yourself up again or as I said before, relax/surrender.

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

But what is God?

God IS
perfect unity, which is pure Love.

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

How do you know that there is something instead a mechanic process that happens in the absolute emptiness because they are possible , without any God, absolute, divinity or anything?

I can sense the presence/silence of God right now.

Isn't what you call absolute emptiness simply the ego's perception of God's perfect silence?

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You have to surrender also to the absolute nihilism. That's not easy. You could had a lot of moments of openess when you was totally aware that you are one with the totality, blah blah, but if now, exactly now, you are not open to it, you would think that maybe all was just an illusion and the reality is dead emptiness without bottom. You have to surrender to that shit again and again 

The point is that when you are closed, you are closed. Our minds could elaborate a lot but the landscape is dry, in black and white, dead, closed. In that landscape openess seems a remember that maybe was just a naive illusion.

I've been in the 'black and white dead landscape'. I've faced the worst-case scenario where I felt completely abandoned by God for years and during this time I was sure that all my spiritual experiences/insights etc. were just naive delusions and that I had fooled myself. I stood in the mechanical, bottomless abyss where everything seems like a dead illusion. But at some point, I realized that dead void isn't the ultimate reality, but merely the ego's interpretation of perfect silence/God.

In other words, nihilism is the ego's final interpretation of its own annihilation. And when you ultimately have to surrender to the void, you realize that emptiness isn't dead, but merley a perfect stillness that the mind perceives as nothingness. So when I speak of God, I don't mean a mental safety net or a theological concept that allows me to escape the abyss. I'm talking about what remains after being thrown into the abyss without any safety nets and realizing that emptiness is/was the last veil of the individual self. Surrender to God what happens after realizing that nihilism, too, is just another fearful thought. And I don't believe it's our choice whether we completely surrender to emptiness, because if we could choose, we would always choose against it. You're pushed into a corner until you have no other choice but to surrender.

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You can't remember the openess because you are closed (I'm talking about me not about you, probably anyone have different experience), you have to open the door, release the barrier that's closing. It's not easy, in fact usually it's impossible, you have to do a long work of alignment 

I believe everyone who has a body is closed to some degree. Some are more transparent, others very dense. The work you talk about is the only thing truly worth doing here anyways, and I do it gladly and with joy. Because I know that the Self remains beyond the body and its barriers, and that is what I truly am.

[gettoefl]

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You could say that awareness knowing is included in reality arising, but not the opposite, then if you say that reality is awareness you are making a closure. Just my opinion, because all the authors talk about consciousness and that. I see it as a very obvious mistake, but who knows 

If there is fear you could identifícate With it or not that there is still fear. 

If you are in silence, that of be what you are or not has no meaning. There is fear, period. If you think that this fear is not you, you are introducing an enormous structure of thoughts that implies that the fear could be you or not, then the notion of "you". If there is no mental activity, you or not you means nothing, but fear means everything. The idea that if the thoughts stops the mind is free is not real. 

I do see what you mean about not wanting to create any extra structure or a separate observer. For me, the point of noticing thoughts and feelings isn’t to define what I am, but to train myself to stop automatically taking them as me. I’m not trying to hold onto a position like “this isn’t me,” just to loosen that reflex. In the same way, with fear, it’s not so much about whether it is me or not, but seeing how identifying with it and feeding it seems to keep tension and separation in place. So in my case I’m less interested in defining what’s true at an absolute level, and more in not reinforcing what creates that contraction in the first place.

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

have a different view. The door is always wide open, but it's guarded by the ego, and you simply have to slip through quietly.

Ok, but the ego is not only your human identity, thoughts, but the primal fear to dissolution that is programmed in the human psyche. The identity is it's manifestation 

6 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

I've been in the 'black and white dead landscape'. I've faced the worst-case scenario where I felt completely abandoned by God for years and during this time I was sure that all my spiritual experiences/insights etc. were just naive delusions and that I had fooled myself. I stood in the mechanical, bottomless abyss where everything seems like a dead illusion. But at some point, I realized that dead void isn't the ultimate reality, but merely the ego's interpretation of perfect silence/God.

Then we are speaking the same language (what is very rare). The dead void is the last door, there is a very subtle movement, a shift where the void opens and reveals itself as the unlimited that is. This is the movement that I'm talking about and that is so difficult to do for me. I think it's something that happens when your psychological structure is aligned in some way. If it happens now, and you are open to the unlimited for example during one week, but then in some moment it's closed again, very fast you will forget that reality and you will start to think that was a fantasy to scape of the obvious nihilist void that reality is.

6 hours ago, Grateful Dead said:

believe everyone who has a body is closed to some degree. Some are more transparent, others very dense. The work you talk about is the only thing truly worth doing here anyways, and I do it gladly and with joy. Because I know that the Self remains beyond the body and its barriers, and that is what I truly am.

Exactly, nothing in life worths more that this. Without this openess anything is just suffering, at least for me. Every human has a closed structure in some degree, there is always a great work to do to align yourself enough to allow the openess. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, gettoefl said:

I do see what you mean about not wanting to create any extra structure or a separate observer. For me, the point of noticing thoughts and feelings isn’t to define what I am, but to train myself to stop automatically taking them as me. I’m not trying to hold onto a position like “this isn’t me,” just to loosen that reflex. In the same way, with fear, it’s not so much about whether it is me or not, but seeing how identifying with it and feeding it seems to keep tension and separation in place. So in my case I’m less interested in defining what’s true at an absolute level, and more in not reinforcing what creates that contraction in the first place.

I understand what you're saying. I was commenting on it mainly because modern spirituality, like Spira, Mooji, Ralston, and non-dualists in general, say: you are consciousness. You are the screen where forms appear, not the forms themselves (quite dualistic for a non-dualist).

They say: enlightenment isn't something special, it's simply realizing the nature of reality, which is consciousness. This is completely and obviously, let's say impossible. If reality is consciousness, what are the forms that appear in consciousness? Dreams. And who dreams them? Consciousness. So, is consciousness not just consciousness, but an entity that produces dreams? They'll say: don't get confused, let it go, forget the mind, you are consciousness. Ah, so I forget the mind except to know that I am consciousness? Yes! You're enlightened now.

Well, no. Enlightenment is being open to that which has no limits, to what is, which is what you are. Not knowing what reality is. That what has no limits, and having not limits is, is not a screen nor something trivial; it is the source, the Tao, the light, the life, and the total glory of being without limits. These are subjective statements, of course, but not therefore false.

[No1Here2c]

Just now, No1Here2c said:

Perhaps consider that all of these thoughts are an obstacle to real meditation.

Perhaps even trying to figure out 'what the obstacles are' to 'real meditation' is an obstacle to simple observing direct experience.

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, No1Here2c said:

Perhaps consider that all of these thoughts are an obstacle to real meditation.

Perhaps consider that all these thoughts are an impulse to real meditation, and what is an obstacle is speaking from the need of appear special. Real humility is needed for this work.

 

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

I understand what you're saying. I was commenting on it mainly because modern spirituality, like Spira, Mooji, Ralston, and non-dualists in general, say: you are consciousness. You are the screen where forms appear, not the forms themselves (quite dualistic for a non-dualist).

They say: enlightenment isn't something special, it's simply realizing the nature of reality, which is consciousness. This is completely and obviously, let's say impossible. If reality is consciousness, what are the forms that appear in consciousness? Dreams. And who dreams them? Consciousness. So, is consciousness not just consciousness, but an entity that produces dreams? They'll say: don't get confused, let it go, forget the mind, you are consciousness. Ah, so I forget the mind except to know that I am consciousness? Yes! You're enlightened now.

Well, no. Enlightenment is being open to that which has no limits, to what is, which is what you are. Not knowing what reality is. That what has no limits, and having not limits is, is not a screen nor something trivial; it is the source, the Tao, the light, the life, and the total glory of being without limits. These are subjective statements, of course, but not therefore false.

Yes excellent. I think we’re actually aligned on this main point. I myself also don’t want to land on a conceptual conclusion like “I am consciousness” and announce that as enlightenment. It does seem like that can become another position the mind holds onto, which indeed subtly creates a split rather than dissolving it.

Where I think we’re fully in agreement is that whatever reality is, it isn’t something that can be captured or reduced to a concept. Like you said, it’s more like an openness to what has no limits, rather than us arriving at a definition of it.

For me, the sole difference is more in approach than in aim. I do not try to define what I am, but I do find it most helpful, practically, to notice how identification with thoughts or fear seems to create the sense of contraction and separation. So the “not identifying” piece isn’t an absolute truth claim, but it's a way of not reinforcing that contraction.

So I guess I’d say I shy away from trying to describe what reality ultimately is, but instead stop feeding what seems to limit it in experience. Beyond that, I’m fine leaving it open rather than concluding anything like “it is consciousness” or anything like that.