Leo, I Think Your Model of Reality Is Missing a Mechanism

[Willy Phallicus]

1 minute ago, Cred said:

What you're talking about is ontology, the method of which is contemplation

It might start there but when the Infinite is part of the equation(is the equation) linear logic and linear thinking are useless.  The reality is profound and it requires a profound depth of mind to contemplate it.  The old logic which the humans have always employed when pondering the mysteries is trite and insufficient.

No one can give the OP what they are looking for.

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, IslandWild said:

My intuition has always leaned me towards idea that the experience of dreaming is closer to what the substance of what reality is more than the actual "solidified" existence we experience when we are awake. I find an unusual comfort in dreaming, even when they are unpleasant.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my intuition seems to be one my stronger qualities.

In this case it is correct.

[AION]

That there is no structure to the Self is preposterous. 

It is like cavemen looking at the sky and seeing galaxies and saying "look at that chaos, there is no structure in the galaxy".

There is order in chaos. If there wasn't you would just be a pile of shit. In the same way consciousness is not like a pile of shit without order. There is a self organizing principle of consciousness. That is why you see everything evolving. If it was just all chaos, things would stay the same.

[vibv]

But it is only through the Freedom to experience not-Love that Truth is able to know itself as Love.

That's what this is. It is Love unfolding itself. The Process is messy & interactive.

Edited 7 hours ago by vibv

[Cred]

9 minutes ago, vibv said:

That's what this is. It is Love unfolding itself. The Process is messy & interactive.

Yes!

Love is neither unity, nor duality. It is oneness. It is symbiosis. It is a symphony and a dance. Love is beauty. Love is flourishing. Love is fullness. Love is abundance. Love is harmony. Love is balance. Love is authenticity. Love is self-acceptance and the end of alienation and self-judgement.

[Monster Energy]

4 hours ago, Cred said:

@Monster Energy i'm not saying that existence is not intelligent. I'm saying that in addition to both the order and chaos aspect, it also has both a finite and an infinite aspect. These also seem to make a unity of opposites. Without the infinite the finite I can't exist, and without the finite, the infinite can't exist.

I think your pet example is very fitting. According to my model, different humans have a different access to infinity. For example, if you are a very empathic person, you resonate with the empathy of dogs, and if you are an unempathetic person, you resonate more with cats, for example.

Another example is, that an autistic person has a better access to the beauty of complexity, while a neurotropical person has a better access to pride through identity. if you put someone with autism or ADHD in a rally, they will only see stupidity, and therefore the finite. but if a Neurotypical person is very involved with the movement, it can lead them to get glimpse of infinity through that.

 

I enjoyed reading that.

 

[Monster Energy]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness is infinitely intelligent.

Everything is Consciousness. Intelligence creates all forms.

When you see a cloud in the sky, Intelligence had to create that cloud so you could see it. That doesn't mean the cloud itself is intelligent. The cloud is stupid. But Intelligence is imagining the cloud into existence.

If everything is consciousness, calling the cloud ‘stupid’ seems a bit strange. Isn’t it still an expression of the same thing?

 

 

[Monster Energy]

4 hours ago, Willy Phallicus said:

That thing you want to know cannot be apprehended by logical thinking.  A whole new faculty is required.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Willy Phallicus]

25 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Maybe, maybe not.

If logic could touch the divine there would be nothing to discuss as logic would have worked it all out already.

[Inliytened1]

6 hours ago, Monster Energy said:

The structure of experience is still left unexplained.

 

That's because any explanation is finite.

[Monster Energy]

5 minutes ago, Willy Phallicus said:

If logic could touch the divine there would be nothing to discuss as logic would have worked it all out already.

Right. And yet here we are… discussing it with logic.

 

[Monster Energy]

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

That's because any explanation is finite.

That doesn’t mean explanation becomes pointless. 

 

[Cred]

9 minutes ago, Willy Phallicus said:

If logic could touch the divine there would be nothing to discuss as logic would have worked it all out already.

The "we would've found it already" assumes that it is easy.

I'm asking: what is the difference between saying "the rational numbers can't be explained logically because they are infinite" and "reality can't be explained logically because it is infinite"?

This dream of a logical description of reality exists, and it's called "the ideal language". I think it's doable.

Edited 2 hours ago by Cred

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

That doesn’t mean explanation becomes pointless. 

 

It doesn't.  Hence science.  But to grasp reality as a whole you can only become it.  It is at the layer of Being not concept.  Its mystical.  Thats what Leo means my mysterious.  You'll never be able to capture reality with a part of it you must be the whole of it because you cannot "know" the whole of it.  You are the whole of it.  Its too fundamental. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Inliytened1

[Ziran]

7 hours ago, Monster Energy said:

The structure of experience is still left unexplained.

Its structure manifests as "longing" or "cleaving".

The individual-mind is "longing" for the higher-mind like-for-like.  Common analogies include: consummation of nuptials and exchanging "greetings" like-for-like.

It's because the individual-mind is emerging from the higher-mind.  They can be in harmony, resonance, or discord.  

Edited 2 hours ago by Ziran

[Monster Energy]

50 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It doesn't.  Hence science.  But to grasp reality as a whole you can only become it.  It is at the layer of Being not concept.  Its mystical.  Thats what Leo means my mysterious.  You'll never be able to capture reality with a part of it you must be the whole of it because you cannot "know" the whole of it.  You are the whole of it.  Its too fundamental. 

I see your point. But the second we talk about it, it kind of becomes a concept again, doesn’t it?

 

[Willy Phallicus]

22 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Right. And yet here we are… discussing it with logic.

Discussing it with logic and explaining it with logic are two different things.  If logic worked you would have gotten answers to your questions in two or three posts and it would be /thread.

25 minutes ago, Cred said:

The "we would've found it already" assumes that it is easy.

It's not like we haven't dug up the right scroll yet - we haven't found the logic because it doesn't exist and everyone knows it.  So its not easy or hard - its impossible.  When you're dealing with the impossible you gotta rise to meet it and there's no way to interpret the impossible through your run of the mill rational discourse.  The divine is not rational or irrational, its meta-rational.  Your only recourse is through metaphor.

What you're pointing too is beyond human existence and thus human language and human understanding.  It cannot be described - only sensed/felt/experienced.  

52 minutes ago, Cred said:

This dream of a logical description of reality exists, and it's called "the ideal language". I think it's doable.

Divine infinity can be understood intellectually.  That's why guru is good work if you can get it.  But knowing of it and knowing thyself are still two different things and one cannot impart knowing through logic/language alone.  Its a guide to the answer not an answer unto itself.

[Monster Energy]

7 minutes ago, Willy Phallicus said:

Discussing it with logic and explaining it with logic are two different things.  If logic worked you would have gotten answers to your questions in two or three posts and it would be /thread.

You haven’t seen the final illusion yet. Notice something carefully everything you say about existence still uses logic. Even saying that logic can’t explain it is itself a logical claim.

 

[Cred]

12 minutes ago, Willy Phallicus said:

It cannot be described - only sensed/felt/experienced.  

What if one were to describe logically what experience is?

Quote

It seems like you're talking about something like "Mary's room". The concept of "redness" is also integrated in my model. I am calling this neutral kind of experience "neutral resonance". For example, if you have a person who is only HSP and zero autistic and maximum ADHD (minimum meaning). They will walk around and only see the beauty of "isness" and not the beauty of pattern, nor the beauty of meaning. That's why HSP's love color and can't survive without it for example.

The way this works in my example is that a system has more of that sensitivity, if it contains more feedback loops. In my model, a violin is a sensitive system for example, because the cavity in the violin creates a feedback of the sound inside, which amplifies the wave.

 

[Willy Phallicus]

19 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

You haven’t seen the final illusion yet.

On the contrary I see logic for the illusion that it is.  Its a barrier I put there so I would know the mystery exists so I would be tempted to go beyond logic and tackle the mystery.

20 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

everything you say about existence still uses logic

Im using logic to express myself, not the other way around.  I can tell you the divine exists, I can't prove it to you logically.  Oh well, lol at me I guess.

I guess after 5000 years of spiritual discourse we'll have the logic to pwn atheists and non believers any minute now seeing as its just undiscovered logic no one has thought of yet as opposed to being non existent in the first place.  Think of all the centuries thinkers and readers have wasted on philosophy when the simple logic of gods existence and nature was there the whole time.

23 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Even saying that logic can’t explain it is itself a logical claim.

Im saying if logic could explain it then it would have explained it already.  Its illogical to think otherwise.  Ironic, eh?