The ideological roots of the idea of 'toxic masculinity'.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Ulax said:

Feminists don't do enough to call out the misandry from those who identify as feminists. Its natural that misandry gets associated with the movement.

It is a fine line I find.

And very difficult to police when it is straight misandry. There are all sorts of mental gymnastics some women will use to fit their hate into the frame of feminism. Which is a HUGE disservice to the movement. Terrible way to undermine the good parts. 

I do call out women on it (or, try to) because I feel it often takes another women to bring rationality back when generalised hate is thrown around. I know a few men who really do not know how to approach women who are misandrists without further fuelling their hatred by calling it out. I feel like feedback regarding calling out misandry really does need to come from other women.

Just because it isn't as much of a threat, doesn't mean it is any less wrong. Socially it can castrate men and lead to unintegrated masculine traits (manifesting as overly soft, capitulating, demotivated and stagnant behaviours).

You can flip this argument and apply it to misogyny also. Both behaviours are low consciousness. 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Lila9]

@Ulax

Men not being allies to women in the fight against systemic misogyny is a relevant point. If they have more power in society and are selfish, then why would feminists, who have less power in society, fight for a minor issue that a more powerful group suffers from that does not even have a significant negative effect on them?

If misogyny is like a common disease with a major negative impact on people's lives, then misandry is not a common disease and has little impact.

This is why misogyny is a systemic issue while misandry isn't. Just because something exists doesn't mean that it is a systemic issue. Many bad things exist, but not every bad thing is systemic. There are Black people who hate White people, but this is not a systemic issue. White people's lives are not systematically affected by this, they still have their human rights, privileges, and protection by the system.

However, while feminists don't directly address misandry, feminists do question the narrow gender roles imposed by patriarchy on both men and women.

Masculinity according to patriarchy, is defined not by what it is, but by what it is not: femininity.

Men are expected by patriarchy to repress their femininity, emotions, and vulnerability and to adhere to narrow standards of masculinity, which is not sustainable for healthy human beings. Especially when it comes to building healthy relationships, even a healthy relationship with oneself.

Men commit suicide not because of a random encounter with a misandrist woman, but because they don't have permission to be whole human beings who express feelings, seek help, and so on.

Their shame comes from actually having feelings and a feminine side that doesn't fit patriarchal expectations of men. This is what I believe to be the case.

Women are not only angry about the men who directly abused them, but also about the men who silently protect those men, ignore their misbehaviour, don't call them out, justify them, or do nothing.

And it doesn't mean that they are angry at every individual male for existing. They are angry at men as a group with shared patterns. Of course there are exceptions, but most men are compliant with the system, either actively or silently, overtly or covertly, even normal and “nice” men.

 

Quote

Out of ten men, one makes a sexual joke at a woman.

Two laugh freely, thinking it’s harmless.

Three fake a chuckle just to fit in, hoping no one notices their discomfort.

Four stay silent, unsure, afraid, or unwilling to challenge the moment.

None of them speak up. Later, nine of them still walk around thinking they’re the “good guys,” proud of their morals, oblivious to the damage done.

But from the woman’s perspective, every laugh, every fake chuckle, every look away, every silence; it all creates the same environment. It all tells her she is being minimized, objectified, or dismissed.

So when women say “most men are the same,” this is what they mean: not that every man harasses women, not that every man is intentionally cruel, but that most men play some part—active or passive—in protecting a system that normalizes harassment, belittlement, and inequality.

This is the invisible network of complicity, the everyday culture that keeps women cautious, guarded, and exhausted.

It’s not about one joke.

It’s about the nine who do nothing.

 

There is the case of Gisèle Pelicot, a French woman who was married to a seemingly normal man for many years. They were close partners. However, he drugged her for years and raped her when she was unconscious.

Not only that, he invited men he contacted through the internet to rape her and filmed it. She wasn't aware of it and discovered it through the police investigation.

The men who participated in her rape were all sorts of men, often married and with respected jobs, “good men.”

She decided to make the trial public to raise awareness.

What caused those “good” men to rape an unconscious woman? Systemic dehumanization and objectification of women, and also seeing masculinity as a form of dominance over the feminine, “feeling like a man” as they were socialized to view masculinity.

Even the men who were just contacted by her husband and didn't end up going and raping her, did nothing about it. Didn't call to the police or something.

 

[Crazy_ball]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

1. Feminists are more concerned with fighting misogyny, because it has real consequences in their lives.

2. Men are not even good allies for women in the fight against misogyny and often dismiss it or normalize it.

3. Misandry is not a systemic issue. Misogyny is a systemic issue. The major negative effect of misandry on men is inconvenience to the ego.

4. Women don’t go and shoot men just because they are angry at them.

They don’t kill men on the scale that men commit femicide, and women don’t fight for stripping men of their human rights.

There are incidents of women killing men because of hatred toward men, such as Aileen Wuornos and Belle Gunness (usually rooted in sexual abuse), but it is not very common.

5. Both misogyny and misandry are wrong, but they are not an equal threat.

6. Because society is systematically and deeply misogynistic, women are more likely to have internalized misogyny than misandry.

7. Feelings like anger, rage, moral disgust, and bitterness toward men are usually symptoms of trauma, abuse, and systemic oppression rather than hatred.

However, even when it does result in misandry, it is usually not a real threat.

Who hurt you? 

[Crazy_ball]

4 hours ago, Ulax said:

Feminists don't do enough to call out the misandry from those who identify as feminists. Its natural that misandry gets associated with the movement.

This is not an accident. This is by design. They are unapologetic in their hatred towards men, as @Lila9 explained so well. 

There is no doubt that there is hatred. Our job is to deal with the hurt underneath the hatred. It's actually a nice response. 

[Ulax]

25 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

This is not an accident. This is by design. They are unapologetic in their hatred towards men, as @Lila9 explained so well. 

There is no doubt that there is hatred. Our job is to deal with the hurt underneath the hatred. It's actually a nice response. 

Not all feminists are the same quality of thinkers. But i understand your frustrations.

[Lila9]

7 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

This is not an accident. This is by design. They are unapologetic in their hatred towards men, as @Lila9 explained so well. 

There is no doubt that there is hatred. Our job is to deal with the hurt underneath the hatred. It's actually a nice response. 

I don't hear misandrist talk from other women. 

I often either see women seeing men as equal, overestimating generic toxic men, validly critizasing toxic behavior in men or simply complaining about men.

If I see a woman rape, try to murder, or hurt in any way (psychologically, emotionally, financially, physically, etc.) an innocent man or a child because of misandry or another stupid reason, then of course I would do everything in my power to stop it. I would be very angry. Because it is wrong. 

Romantic rejection is painful but it doesn't count as misandry, women can be romantically rejected by men as well.

Blaming women who criticize systemic abuse by men as misandry is just a way to dismiss a valid feminist critique of inequality.

It is actually very narcissistic to play the victim by women, without any significant harm from women, while taking part in a system that oppresses women (which also negatively affects you, but you are too myopic to realize this).

[Ulax]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

@Ulax

Men not being allies to women in the fight against systemic misogyny is a relevant point. If they have more power in society and are selfish, then why would feminists, who have less power in society, fight for a minor issue that a more powerful group suffers from that does not even have a significant negative effect on them?

Your groupings are too narrow. Some intersectionality would help. Not all women have the same power, and not all men have the same power. For example, that's why things like Womanism emerged. Womanism is a social theory and activist perspective rooted in the everyday experiences of Black women and women of colour. Partly this formed because of all the white middle class women who would point that men had all the power, but wouldn't acknowledge all the power they had, and how they used the feminist movement to uphold their own power. The point is you need to nuanced in your groupings. A minority NEET dude has a very different level of power compared to a white middle class republican women or a successful white man. Gender is only one factor.

So, yes men as a group may have have a lot of power compared to women. But when you make more nuanced groups then the power dynamics change a lot. That's really the issue with a lot of left wing politics today. Its not the grouping, its that there is not enough grouping!

If misogyny is like a common disease with a major negative impact on people's lives, then misandry is not a common disease and has little impact.

This is why misogyny is a systemic issue while misandry isn't. Just because something exists doesn't mean that it is a systemic issue. Many bad things exist, but not every bad thing is systemic. There are Black people who hate White people, but this is not a systemic issue. White people's lives are not systematically affected by this, they still have their human rights, privileges, and protection by the system.

However, while feminists don't directly address misandry, feminists do question the narrow gender roles imposed by patriarchy on both men and women.

Masculinity according to patriarchy, is defined not by what it is, but by what it is not: femininity.

Men are expected by patriarchy to repress their femininity, emotions, and vulnerability and to adhere to narrow standards of masculinity, which is not sustainable for healthy human beings. Especially when it comes to building healthy relationships, even a healthy relationship with oneself.

Men commit suicide not because of a random encounter with a misandrist woman, but because they don't have permission to be whole human beings who express feelings, seek help, and so on.

There are certainly men who would be alive today if they hadn't of recieved misandrist comments. Its not an either-or scenario. It can be true that toxic masculinity played a part and that misandry played apart. Of course they can contribute different amounts.

Their shame comes from actually having feelings and a feminine side that doesn't fit patriarchal expectations of men. This is what I believe to be the case.

Women are not only angry about the men who directly abused them, but also about the men who silently protect those men, ignore their misbehaviour, don't call them out, justify them, or do nothing.

And it doesn't mean that they are angry at every individual male for existing. They are angry at men as a group with shared patterns. Of course there are exceptions, but most men are compliant with the system, either actively or silently, overtly or covertly, even normal and “nice” men.

 

There is the case of Gisèle Pelicot, a French woman who was married to a seemingly normal man for many years. They were close partners. However, he drugged her for years and raped her when she was unconscious.

Not only that, he invited men he contacted through the internet to rape her and filmed it. She wasn't aware of it and discovered it through the police investigation.

The men who participated in her rape were all sorts of men, often married and with respected jobs, “good men.”

She decided to make the trial public to raise awareness.

What caused those “good” men to rape an unconscious woman? Systemic dehumanization and objectification of women, and also seeing masculinity as a form of dominance over the feminine, “feeling like a man” as they were socialized to view masculinity.

Even the men who were just contacted by her husband and didn't end up going and raping her, did nothing about it. Didn't call to the police or something.

 

I'll try reply to the rest as i can.

Edited 48 minutes ago by Ulax

[Crazy_ball]

@Lila9 That was directed towards @Ulax, not you. 

Answer me if you have the courage (and really have a self-righteous reason to be saying what you're saying) - Who hurt you? 

[Ulax]

14 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

@Lila9 That was directed towards @Ulax, not you. 

Answer me if you have the courage (and really have a self-righteous reason to be saying what you're saying) - Who hurt you? 

Wait so you are asking me who hurt me lol?

I'm confused who you are talking to.

Edited 27 minutes ago by Ulax

[Crazy_ball]

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

Wait so you are asking me who hurt me lol?

I'm still confused who you are talking to.

No, I'm telling @Lila9 that the comment she replied to was directed to you, not her. And that my question to her is who hurt her. 

[Ulax]

Just now, Crazy_ball said:

No, I'm telling @Lila9 that the comment she replied to was directed to you, not her. And that my question to her is who hurt her. 

gotcha

[Lila9]

@Ulax Yes, I agree that not every man has more power than every woman. If a NEET man is dehumanized by a rich white woman simply because of his status, then this is class-based hatred. This is why poor people hating rich people is not the same as rich people hating on poor people. 

There are certainly toxic women, or women with various personality disorders, who can traumatize their male child or partner severely, but they usually treat women the same way. It is hard to tell whether they are harmful because of misandry or simply because they are antisocial, narcissistic, psychopathic, or have other mental health issues.
I don't deny that some men may end up committing suicide due to misandry, but how common is it? Maybe they feel romantically rejected, which is not misandry.

 

[Lila9]

20 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

@Lila9 That was directed towards @Ulax, not you. 

Answer me if you have the courage (and really have a self-righteous reason to be saying what you're saying) - Who hurt you? 

So don't tag me. And no, I'm not going to answer your stupid question. Grow up dude. 

[Crazy_ball]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

So don't tag me. And no, I'm not going to answer your stupid question. Grow up dude. 

Why not? Is it that bad? 

Edited 19 minutes ago by Crazy_ball

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Crazy_ball Enough.

You've been warned to stop trolling.

[Ulax]

3 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

@Ulax Yes, I agree that not every man has more power than every woman. If a NEET man is dehumanized by a rich white woman simply because of his status, then this is class-based hatred. This is why poor people hating rich people is not the same as rich people hating on poor people. 

There are certainly toxic women, or women with various personality disorders, who can traumatize their male child or partner severely, but they usually treat women the same way. It is hard to tell whether they are harmful because of misandry or simply because they are antisocial, narcissistic, psychopathic, or have other mental health issues.
I don't deny that some men may end up committing suicide due to misandry, but how common is it? Maybe they feel romantically rejected, which is not misandry.

 

 

Fair points. Though I would imagine misandry does have a non-nominal impact on male suicide. But I don't know.

[Ulax]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

It is a fine line I find.

And very difficult to police when it is straight misandry. There are all sorts of mental gymnastics some women will use to fit their hate into the frame of feminism. Which is a HUGE disservice to the movement. Terrible way to undermine the good parts. 

I do call out women on it (or, try to) because I feel it often takes another women to bring rationality back when generalised hate is thrown around. I know a few men who really do not know how to approach women who are misandrists without further fuelling their hatred by calling it out. I feel like feedback regarding calling out misandry really does need to come from other women.

Just because it isn't as much of a threat, doesn't mean it is any less wrong. Socially it can castrate men and lead to unintegrated masculine traits (manifesting as overly soft, capitulating, demotivated and stagnant behaviours).

You can flip this argument and apply it to misogyny also. Both behaviours are low consciousness. 

 

Makes sense. I respect the calling out.