The Pain of Untamed Desire

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, Yimpa said:

Yaaay, I can relate to that! We so rule 

 The other side of it is like suddenly being a different person !

I was very surprised at how much shame I had, and could not see it or identify it within me.

[theleelajoker]

14 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@LastThursday

I think this is guilt actually - different from shame. This is just within my understanding but guilt is 'I did wrong, I performed a wrong action'. Guilt is how we act out in reality. Shame is based around 'I AM wrong, I am defective in some way'. I often see people confusing the two notions. And it is easy to do so -  as often we can feel guilty for doing a wrong action - and this can feed shame. Hence the shame-guilt spiral many fall into.

Guilt is behaviour based, shame is identity based. Which is why I believe internalised shame is so much more detrimental and spawns all sorts of self worth issues. It threatens belonging - exposure as someone bad leads to being cast out. It has no clear repair path; I am broken as opposed to 'it broke, I'll fix it'. And shame also tends to be formed very early in development, leading us to really cement it into our nervous systems and form part of what we genuinely believe to be our personalities. Being mocked, ignored, punished for emotions, compared. All shame inducing.

Shame is formed on distorted conclusions made in moments of vulnerability. We isolate from shame. Guilt tends to connect - go repair the thing. Shame forces us into silence. Hide. Don't be seen. 

I've done a lot of personal work and healing from extensive trauma - and shame was my biggest issue I had to overcome.

I personally believe most people are unaware of their own internalised shame patterns and beliefs.

I can resonate with the experience of what we typically call "shame" or "guilt" or "fear".

I also understand where you're coming from regarding distinction guilt and shame. Deconstructing can have value in dealing with it.

At the same time, the distinctions are also meaningless. Whatever we call it, it's always simply a feeling we feel within our perceived boundaries.

Edited 22 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@theleelajoker alright then let's just forget it all 

GG 

[theleelajoker]

11 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@theleelajoker alright then let's just forget it all 

GG 

Yes let's go out and do stuff 

[LastThursday]

I've just gone out and touched grass myself. 

17 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Guilt is behaviour based, shame is identity based.

I think I was being more casual in my wording, maybe embarrassment was closer to what I was awkwardly referring to 😳. I was trying to get at why shame (clinical definition) arises in the first place. One of the sources could be by repeated social embarrassment - and by extension humilitation - by parents or people in authority. Neglect being another for example. So it starts off externally (behaviour based), and over time gets internalised, and then finally becomes identity. What do you reckon?

17 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I've done a lot of personal work and healing from extensive trauma - and shame was my biggest issue I had to overcome.

I personally believe most people are unaware of their own internalised shame patterns and beliefs.

I would agree 100%, a lot of cognitive disonance, avoidant behaviour, social anxiety, and self-sabotaging stem from it, I would say. And I can definitely see it in myself too, although awareness is curative supposedly or its a start in "fixing" myself.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

At the same time, the distinctions are also meaningless. Whatever we call it, it's always simply a feeling we feel within our perceived boundaries.

Our feelings can lead us astray though.

There is a reason we use distinctions - to gain awareness. Which is the first step. 

This process is needed IMO. It is essential to integrate. After integration - that is when the distinctions and concepts need to be discarded.

Similar to spiritual process - philosophy and questioning build up understanding to awareness - then we can discard it. I have always felt I built up the scaffolding to stand on, and then I work to remove that ground after the insight is had. Constantly learning and then disintegrating all that was prior. Like a set of steps I am walking up, and after every step, I turn and deconstruct what is behind me. 

Going straight for 'distinctions are meaningless' can lead to bypassing.

Edited 12 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[theleelajoker]

10 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Our feelings can lead us astray though.

There is a reason we use distinctions - to gain awareness. Which is the first step. 

This process is needed IMO. It is essential to integrate. After integration - that is when the distinctions and concepts need to be discarded.

Similar to spiritual process - philosophy and questioning build up understanding to awareness - then we can discard it. I have always felt I built up the scaffolding to stand on, and then I work to remove that ground after the insight is had. Constantly learning and then disintegrating all that was prior. Like a set of steps I am walking up, and after every step, I turn and deconstruct what is behind me. 

Going straight for 'distinctions are meaningless' can lead to bypassing.

Hmmm...can going for direct experience without labeling anything ever be bypassing?