The Pain of Untamed Desire

[Oeaohoo]

Whenever I listen to or read discourse about dating, relationships and sexuality, I get triggered because it evokes all of my own unsatisfied desires. So many years of loneliness and misery build up a lot of resentment. Ironically, this keeps me from having a relationship because, as soon as I get the chance, the wounded part of me relishes the opportunity to reject someone else and get revenge.

Not sure why I shared this, maybe somebody here can relate to it…

[LastThursday]

It's uncanny how trauma often converts into self-sabotage. I do wonder why that is. What do you think? My reasoning is that it's connected to low self worth, and that attacking yourself is often the only form of control available. 

[Oeaohoo]

5 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

It's uncanny how trauma often converts into self-sabotage. I do wonder why that is. What do you think? My reasoning is that it's connected to low self worth, and that attacking yourself is often the only form of control available. 

I think that one also builds an identity around the traumatised part of oneself. The ego seeks to defend itself, even - especially - if it is broken.

[LastThursday]

What do you think broke in your case? No need to respond if you don't want to go into it. Do you think having an identity around trauma means that anything that challenges that identity is rejected in order to protect it? Maybe there are multiple identities and some are stronger than others, a "Desire" identity and a "Resenment" identity.

[Oeaohoo]

18 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

What do you think broke in your case? 

A combination of mother issues and rejection in early life.

18 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Do you think having an identity around trauma means that anything that challenges that identity is rejected in order to protect it? Maybe there are multiple identities and some are stronger than others, a "Desire" identity and a "Resentment" identity.

It’s interesting you ask these questions. Earlier today I was discussing my broken psychology with ChatGPT and it went down a similar line. Firstly:

Quote

From an attachment perspective, outward disgust can develop when early closeness felt intrusive, overwhelming, chaotic, or emotionally unsafe. If a caregiver was inconsistent, engulfing, critical, or unpredictable, a child’s nervous system may have learned: “Closeness = threat.” Disgust is evolutionarily wired to create distance — it’s one of the fastest ways the brain pushes something away. So instead of collapsing into shame (“I’m bad”), the system protects itself by rejecting the outside world (“That’s repulsive,” “People are gross,” “This is contaminating”).

Secondly:

Quote

When someone carries a background layer of outward disgust and projects an image of perfect purity onto women, that can reflect a psychological process sometimes called splitting — where people (or parts of people) are unconsciously divided into “pure/ideal” and “contaminated/repulsive.” If early closeness felt unsafe, intrusive, shaming, or unpredictable, the child’s mind may cope by dividing relational experience into two poles: the idealised, pure, safe other (longed for); the flawed, contaminating, disappointing other (rejected).

[theleelajoker]

29 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

It's uncanny how trauma often converts into self-sabotage. I do wonder why that is. What do you think? My reasoning is that it's connected to low self worth, and that attacking yourself is often the only form of control available. 

I think it's one part, yes. I have seen people - me and others - doing stupid stuff to themselves just to make the point of "I'm in control of my body". Smoking, alcohol, drugs, bad eating habits - we all do it but beyond a certain degree it barely makes senses.

IMO self-sabotage is also maintaining a coherent story. It's not about being a healthy or constructive story, it's about making sense.

Example: I have been treated in way XYZ, I thus must be "bad, guilty, not loveable etc" --> information that goes against this identity cannot be processed properly. 

Heh? You say I'm loveable? But for 18 years, the message (or at least, my interpretation of reality) was the opposite. How can it be true that you tell me now something so different? 

Maybe the subconscious is very basic here. Like a traffic light, you can't jump from red to green, you need to pass yellow to have a coherent process (story) for your identity. 

[LastThursday]

@Oeaohoo the response from ChatGPT you gave is interesting. It does seem like the two poles have something in common though. In some way they both want the best outcome for you, one protects, and the other wants connection? All identities at some level in that case want what's best for you, in their own particular way. It's just that in your case they're not playing along, you get so far, then reject the situation. Would you agree?

38 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Heh? You say I'm loveable? But for 18 years, the message (or at least, my interpretation of reality) was the opposite. How can it be true that you tell me now something so different? 

That would seem to be my experience, and I've often come across this in people. How does the self-sabotage arise from this kind of message? I can understand that it would make it hard to allow others to express their love for you, but it only seems like self-sabotage if there are other competing needs there too which are being suppressed. What about more direct self-sabotage like self-injury that would seem related?

[Oeaohoo]

9 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

All identities at some level in that case want what's best for you, in their own particular way. It's just that in your case they're not playing along, you get so far, then reject the situation. Would you agree?

On some level. I suppose any defence one sets up is for one’s own benefit, at least initially, as a way to cope with a situation which would otherwise be unbearable. The trouble is that, like @theleelajoker said, it then becomes an internalised self-narrative which one feels a need to sustain, regardless of whether it is true.

In my case, at least in the past, it has proved to be a toxic combination: I reject and chase after all the people I shouldn’t. This is a recipe for bitterness and dissatisfaction.

Maybe one day my mentality will catch up with my biology! In the meantime, these are the riches of the poor…

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 hours ago, LastThursday said:

It's uncanny how trauma often converts into self-sabotage. I do wonder why that is. What do you think? My reasoning is that it's connected to low self worth, and that attacking yourself is often the only form of control available. 

Do you think it could be a result of incorrect or false meaning making?

'I experienced trauma, therefor I am bad, I deserved it, I did something to cause it'

It is sometimes easier to blame ourselves than the rest of the world. It can be too much to see the world as busted. Much easier to think we did something to 'cause' the badness. The brain attempting to correct something to prevent it happening again. Only this can cause internalised shame. Shame is a powerful self sabotage mechanism. 

There are many possibilities. And interesting question to ponder...

[Infinite Tsukuyomi]

4 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

It is sometimes easier to blame ourselves than the rest of the world. It can be too much to see the world as busted. Much easier to think we did something to 'cause' the badness. The brain attempting to correct something to prevent it happening again. Only this can cause internalised shame. Shame is a powerful self sabotage mechanism. 

Most of what we do is moralize to each other about how we "should" feel towards life. When everyone's telling you that you don't want something bad enough, eventually you start believing it. The heavy emphasis on personal responsibility does indeed make seeing the world as a problem the taboo. It's a catch 22. 

[theleelajoker]

8 hours ago, LastThursday said:

 

That would seem to be my experience, and I've often come across this in people. How does the self-sabotage arise from this kind of message? I can understand that it would make it hard to allow others to express their love for you, but it only seems like self-sabotage if there are other competing needs there too which are being suppressed. What about more direct self-sabotage like self-injury that would seem related?

Let's say any situation is happening. There are infinite ways to react to it right? What I have seen is for instance in people are two types:

• One practically ALWAYS overvalued his responsibility. It was always guilt. Even if I said "look, stuff happens, all good, I'm fine, let's just move on" the person never could shake the feeling of guilt. So what do you do with guilty people in Christianity? In society? You punish them. If there's no one external to do it, but you subconsciously believe it should happen...you do it (subconsciously)
• One basically NEVER look responsibility. This type had to maintain a "not my fault" frame at all times. So even when I was very open about my responsibility, when I apologized and was constructive, this type couldn't openly admit his/her part in our issues. But it's never black and white, right? Everyone has some share. The subconscious knows this. So part deep within  knew he/she behaved unfair in not taking responsibility and  punished himself/ herself for being mean 
• One other example: I punish myself by not allowing, not being aware of my wants and needs. I am not allowed to be happy. Holding on to this idea. Which creates lot of tension, and what I have seen is that this tension needs to be released with e.g. cutting yourself (if you look closely there are quite a few women with marks on forearm or legs)

 

Edited 8 hours ago by theleelajoker

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, Infinite Tsukuyomi said:

Most of what we do is moralize to each other about how we "should" feel towards life. When everyone's telling you that you don't want something bad enough, eventually you start believing it. The heavy emphasis on personal responsibility does indeed make seeing the world as a problem the taboo. It's a catch 22. 

Yeah, a more systemic view is useful. It's not about denying personal responsibility, but finding the right balance.

The way we are raised and educated, there's little training for "ambiguity tolerance" - the ability to hold seemingly contradictory perspectives at the same time.

What we learn is rather easy stories about guilt, about right and wrong. About mono-causality - it's like this because of that. 

And you're right about the moralizing other and how one should see life. This site is the PERFECT EXAMPLE FOR THIS btw. Lots of "this is how the world is" and "this is what you should do or feel"

Edited 8 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

55 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

The way we are raised and educated, there's little training for "ambiguity tolerance" - the ability to hold seemingly contradictory perspectives at the same time.

In my experience this is rare. And the mark of a highly intelligent, mature individual. I cannot even think of more than one or two cases in my life who have exemplified this.

The human mind craves certainty so it can predict the future. Predicting the future links back to survival.

The ability to sit with cognitive dissonance and understand it - without suppressing one side to enable certainty - RARE.

I think it is part how we are raised, educated - but also survival based programming of the brain that feeds into this mechanism. Theres a lot working against us

Edited 7 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[LastThursday]

9 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

The trouble is that, like @theleelajoker said, it then becomes an internalised self-narrative which one feels a need to sustain, regardless of whether it is true.

Would you say the internalised self-narrative is the identity itself or would it just be the result of a more abstract lingering emotional trauma? The narrative gets generated as a way to materialise the trauma into a more adult and relatable form?

8 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Shame is a powerful self sabotage mechanism. 

I do think there is a component of self-blame and shame - I think that's why I mentioned low self worth. Shame would be a signal to others that you know you did wrong, yes, but also somehow related to our hierarchical social brains, in that you're volunteering to be lower in the pecking order - hence the low self worth.

Maybe being lower worth means that sabotaging yourself is a more justified activity? I don't know it still doesn't seem like a fair explanation for self-sabotage. Tricky.

I do think children up to a certain age, don't easily separate their identities from their parents' identities. In many ways they are their parents, it could be too much of stretch to attribute to much self-consciousness to the process. I mean, this would explain why traumatised people repeat the trauma as adults, because they never fully separated their identities from their abusers?

3 hours ago, Infinite Tsukuyomi said:

Most of what we do is moralize to each other about how we "should" feel towards life.

I think there can be a large moralising and judging component to any internal narrative going on related to trauma, which is "taken on" from others around you, especially from the important people around you.

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I punish myself by not allowing, not being aware of my wants and needs. I am not allowed to be happy.

I suppose one physical aspect of moralising is punishment, and this is enacted by the traumatised individual? I'm not sure about the release of tension concept, surely self-injury is more tension inducing? But self injury can be very visible to others, although I'm not sure what this would signal to them.