How big was the PUA movement at its peak? How does it compare current gen looksmaxxin

[Elliott]

21 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Elliott I just put your whole post on Gemini pro and it just summarizes it as having some valid point but falling into the correlation vs causation fallacy. 

 

The author is entirely correct that casual sex is not for everyone and that it is frequently used as an unhealthy coping mechanism by people struggling with depression or attachment wounds.

However, their attempt to weaponize this data to claim that casual sex inherently harms people, or that someone is "harming women" by being okay with it, fails. The studies they quoted prove only that mentally vulnerable people sometimes use sex to cope, not that consensual, safe casual sex between healthy adults is psychologically damaging.

Which goes back to my point to the onus on you as the individual to have casual sex in a responsible manner, not that casual sex causes damage to women or men. 

That was gemini logged into my own account. I actually copy pasted this entire thread into grok on an incognito mode as well, feel free to do the same and see if you can get it to debunk my argument in another way. I think I'm overall correct though.

This is a field I've been researching and testing for basically 14 years with a lot of effort so I'd be shocked if many of my takes were demonstrably false. I wouldn't doubt if I have some of the most game experience in the whole forum, especially with social circle and social media game. 

That's the same as selling crack and saying the onus is on the crackhead, though. I think people should consider the common problems in casual sex, I think it's usually unhealthy. I think women usually consider the guy to be more interested in them as a person than they are.

Edited 10 hours ago by Elliott

[LordFall]

9 minutes ago, Elliott said:

That's the same as selling crack and saying the onus is on the crackhead, though.

What would you say are the benefits of crack?

You're comparing a bonding activity that can have some negative effects if some of the recipients are not in a great state of mind to cooked cocaine that sold my international crime cartels

Here is a concise summary of the primary health drawbacks of crack cocaine:

• Heart and Blood Vessels: Immediate risk of heart attack, stroke, and dangerously high blood pressure; long-term risk of severe heart disease.
• Lungs and Respiration: "Crack lung" (severe chest pain and breathing issues), chronic coughing, and high risk of respiratory infections like pneumonia.
• Brain and Mental Health: Extremely rapid onset of addiction, severe depression during the "crash," paranoia, and drug-induced psychosis (such as hallucinations).
• Physical Deterioration: Severe malnutrition, extreme weight loss, and significant dental decay from harsh chemicals and teeth grinding.
• Overdose Risk: High chance of sudden death from cardiac arrest, seizures, or respiratory failure, especially because the short high often leads to binge use.

You can also say a lifelong addiction is the optimal motive for selling crack from a crack dealer. Your optimal motive for a casual hookup is a beautiful shared experience hopefully to be repeated. It's actually not really comparable at all.  

To take this from a debate on casual sex to epistemology, I encourage you to test your ideas against LLM models. They do a great job of breaking down the flaws. I do it all the time and often time I'm the wrong with faulty logic. Your point just now gemini calls an apocalypse in reasoning basically lol. 

I like being right but I like learning moreso. 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by LordFall

[Elliott]

4 minutes ago, LordFall said:

What would you say are the benefits of crack?

 

It does the same thing casual sex does, numbs the subconscious pain.

[LordFall]

@Elliott I'm not really willing to engage in low level discussion without intellectual integrity. If I'm gonna put effort in my responses and literally test them against an AI and you just say stupid nonsense then I'll leave you to a solo conversation. 

Hope you reconcile your bias and traumas around this topic. 

[Elliott]

54 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Elliott I'm not really willing to engage in low level discussion without intellectual integrity. If I'm gonna put effort in my responses and literally test them against an AI and you just say stupid nonsense then I'll leave you to a solo conversation. 

Hope you reconcile your bias and traumas around this topic. 

You put effort into your response but i don't believe any in considering what I said. This hasn't been a conversation, its been two monologues, a sales pitch.

Gemini

While the term "pickup artist" (PUA) is widely associated with the pursuit of sex, its practitioners and critics view its primary focus differently, ranging from sexual conquest to social self-improvement or psychological manipulation. 

1. The Goal: Sexual Success

The fundamental aim of the PUA community is to achieve "sexual success" with women through a set of learned behaviors known as "game". 

Women’s views on pickup artists (PUAs) are overwhelmingly negative, generally characterizing the subculture as manipulative, objectifying, and transparently insincere. While some men view these tactics as a path to self-improvement, many women perceive them as a "code" designed to bypass their autonomy. 

Core Criticisms from a Female Perspective

Dehumanization: Women frequently report that PUA methods treat them as "targets" or "prizes" to be won rather than individual human beings.

Inauthenticity: A major turn-off is the "rehearsed" nature of the interactions. Women often pick up on the lack of spontaneity and feel they are talking to a "contrived persona" rather than a real person.

Low Long-Term Satisfaction: Even if a PUA successfully initiates casual sex, women often report more negative emotions and regret after casual encounters compared to men, especially if they felt manipulated or "fooled" during the process.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/tn4xs/what_does_the_women_of_reddit_feel_about_pua/#:~:text=I know for a fact,to have sex with you.

14y ago

"It's super icky. Just take a look at r/seduction, read through some of the posts, look at how they're talking about women, and think about how you'd feel if people were talking about you that way.

 

It's straight up gross. Not recommended"

 

 

See these comments

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13hhr8w/from_20072017_the_percent_of_young_women_that/

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Elliott

[LordFall]

Awesome this is a better response. 

2 hours ago, Elliott said:

You put effort into your response but i don't believe any in considering what I said. This hasn't been a conversation, its been two monologues, a sales pitch.

 

Not at all. I've countered every point that you've put forth. Notice that you've now shifted the goal post and are arguing different points. First I had to defend casual sex in of itself and now the practice of learning game. Which I can easily do.

Pickup is a wide field, you can't criticize it as a whole. There are some coaches that believe in just coming up with a rehearsed script and fuck as many girls as possible even if you have to lie to do it. Some other doesn't believe in casual sex that much and emphasize trauma release and introspection to identify your core needs and desire. I've met muslim guys that do pickup to learn to socialize and make friends and have never had sex from it. 

Fundamentally it's just about learning social skills and communication skills. Building rapport with a stranger that doesn't know you. That's why pickup guys usually get into sales or try it at some point in their career, it's a very related skill. Same thing where you can say business and sales are toxic in some context and not in others. 

I say it's mandatory to have a high quality dating life to learn to speak to women and seduce them. I think as a man learning to have casual sex will help you. I don't recommend manipulating anyone, I recommend becoming a genuinely attractive man that women enjoy being around.

In regards to the Reddit posts you linked, those are valid perspectives. I don't think they mean much towards your point though. Someone having a bad experience with people that might or might not have been dickheads with bad intentions doesn't invalidate learning to express yourself and connecting with people.

What if you got feedback from all the women that dated people that learned some game and are now in happy relationships, obviously their feedback would be the opposite and mostly all positive. Which one is more solid data?

Also keep in mind women don't actually know who does pickup. If they get hit on by a guy at a bar that says some cringe line and when they say sorry I'm not interested and the guy says fuck off whore you're ugly anyway, I'd say it's pretty likely if you asked her what she thinks about pickup guys she would say omg they're assholes rude. Whereas that guy probably has never read a pickup book in his life nor actively tried to shed his ego and improve his flaws and learn to be a better man. Just a random drunk dude. Pickup is inherently about shedding your ego, the whole point is you're not good enough as you are and you have to learn to be better, increase the value you provide to others and communicate that value better. 

And in closing we're being asked from prescriptive advice here from the OP. Meaning he's looking at different trends in dating to figure out what he should follow. Notice that you haven't give him any advice apart from trying to argue against casual sex and pickup. So what would your alternative advice be, don't learn social skills, don't make a high quality social circle and don't learn to present yourself in a positive light? All key components of PUA philosophy. 

If we're to take this conversation away from the domain of philosophy and to practical life I would ask also what have you done in your life to help people find high quality relationships that gives credibility to your opinions? I do this as one of my businesses you can take a look at my personal Instagram or my business page https://www.instagram.com/royals.dating . I've personally helped guys get into relationships so that's also why this topic is personal to me. 

Edited 7 hours ago by LordFall

[Elliott]

53 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Awesome this is a better response. 

Not at all. I've countered every point that you've put forth. Notice that you've now shifted the goal post and are arguing different points. First I had to defend casual sex in of itself and now the practice of learning game. Which I can easily do.

Pickup is a wide field, you can't criticize it as a whole. There are some coaches that believe in just coming up with a rehearsed script and fuck as many girls as possible even if you have to lie to do it. Some other doesn't believe in casual sex that much and emphasize trauma release and introspection to identify your core needs and desire. I've met muslim guys that do pickup to learn to socialize and make friends and have never had sex from it. 

Fundamentally it's just about learning social skills and communication skills. Building rapport with a stranger that doesn't know you. That's why pickup guys usually get into sales or try it at some point in their career, it's a very related skill. Same thing where you can say business and sales are toxic in some context and not in others. 

I say it's mandatory to have a high quality dating life to learn to speak to women and seduce them. I think as a man learning to have casual sex will help you. I don't recommend manipulating anyone, I recommend becoming a genuinely attractive man that women enjoy being around.

In regards to the Reddit posts you linked, those are valid perspectives. I don't think they mean much towards your point though. Someone having a bad experience with people that might or might not have been dickheads with bad intentions doesn't invalidate learning to express yourself and connecting with people.

What if you got feedback from all the women that dated people that learned some game and are now in happy relationships, obviously their feedback would be the opposite and mostly all positive. Which one is more solid data?

Also keep in mind women don't actually know who does pickup. If they get hit on by a guy at a bar that says some cringe line and when they say sorry I'm not interested and the guy says fuck off whore you're ugly anyway, I'd say it's pretty likely if you asked her what she thinks about pickup guys she would say omg they're assholes rude. Whereas that guy probably has never read a pickup book in his life nor actively tried to shed his ego and improve his flaws and learn to be a better man. Just a random drunk dude. Pickup is inherently about shedding your ego, the whole point is you're not good enough as you are and you have to learn to be better, increase the value you provide to others and communicate that value better. 

And in closing we're being asked from prescriptive advice here from the OP. Meaning he's looking at different trends in dating to figure out what he should follow. Notice that you haven't give him any advice apart from trying to argue against casual sex and pickup. So what would your alternative advice be, don't learn social skills, don't make a high quality social circle and don't learn to present yourself in a positive light? All key components of PUA philosophy. 

If we're to take this conversation away from the domain of philosophy and to practical life I would ask also what have you done in your life to help people find high quality relationships that gives credibility to your opinions? I do this as one of my businesses you can take a look at my personal Instagram or my business page https://www.instagram.com/royals.dating . I've personally helped guys get into relationships so that's also why this topic is personal to me. 

I'm not actually moving the goalposts I think, as I said early on, you were jumping to assumptions about my position.

On 2/19/2026 at 2:15 PM, Elliott said:

. I like casual sex, never done pickup though, I don't go out for sex or target women for it, 

Sincerely, I don't mean the good guys are losers. I think PUA for a girlfriend is cool, I don't consider guys like that to be losers. Really, I think they're awesome, some girls don't socialize enough and need that.

My issue is just with the casual sex part.

What percent of women do you think that have sex with PUA, do so because they wanted to have casual sex beforehand? What percent of those women do you believe have relatively healthy psychology that isn't making them vulnerable to promiscuity (daddy issues)?

I would sincerely like your opinion, I know it's only a guess, but you're in this field.

[Leo Gura]

Pickup was always very niche. Even in its heyday. Mystery days of pickup was like the Dark Ages.

With RSD it became bigger but still super niche in the grand scheme of things.

[enchanted]

There have always been Casanovas and Don Juans and sex addicts etc. 

But the PUA that most affected me was Payton Kane. Took me alot of years to reprogram my brain from his material but it helped me get laid at least.