We should abolish the United States.

[Apparition of Jack]

Think about it. What are the actual downsides? As it stands, the US is run by a fascist, white nationalist dictator prepared to kill his is citizens to hold onto power. Already damning enough.

But then even the so-called “opposition” are little more than symbolic opposition at this point who, when push comes to shove, will still support full funding of the fascist takeover of civil society.

So if the governing party is a threat to humanity, and the opposition will support them when it comes down to it, then what right, as a nation, does the US have to exist on the world stage? 
 

Its government sees its citizens as little more than cattle. Its corporations effectively run the place at the direct expense of the lives of its populace. “America” as we know it is an irredeemably corrupt oligarchy that only exists to enrich its fascistic elite.

So why don’t we just abolish it? Put it under the United Nations. Guarantee healthcare, housing, and a liveable wage to all of its citizens. Expand democracy and make local, state and national governance more transparent and engaged. Destroy the power of the Epstein class and nationalise corrupt businesses for the good of humanity. Ensure every person in its borders - black, white, gay, straight, migrant, local - have the full protection of the law and are free to express their lives and desires as they see fit.

Other than nationalist posturing, whats the downsides? Someone tell me. 

[Jannes]

10 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Other than nationalist posturing, whats the downsides? Someone tell me. 

That it fails hard. The US isnt perfect but what could emerge from total chaos could be much worse. 

[Apparition of Jack]

Just now, Jannes said:

That it fails hard. The US isnt perfect but what could emerge from total chaos could be much worse. 

America is ALREADY under chaos. The chaos is here. And the chaos is 100% self-inflicted, egged on by an unrepentant culture of corporatism, laziness, greed and toxic individualism. If the US was put under international administration and massive reforms made to actually ensure its citizens get looked after (seriously, how would guaranteeing healthcare be bad for anyone, other than corrupt insurance companies?), how would that do anything but improve the entire situation?

[oldhandle]

Agreed, it cannot last in it's current incarnation. 

[Jannes]

19 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

America is ALREADY under chaos. The chaos is here. And the chaos is 100% self-inflicted, egged on by an unrepentant culture of corporatism, laziness, greed and toxic individualism. If the US was put under international administration and massive reforms made to actually ensure its citizens get looked after (seriously, how would guaranteeing healthcare be bad for anyone, other than corrupt insurance companies?), how would that do anything but improve the entire situation?

I dont know how failed states are managed internationally tbh.

But I cant even imagine that because the US is so immensely powerful, everyone would be interested to shape it in their liking. 

That thought is just bonkers. 

What exactly do you have in mind when you say the US should be abolished, like what should society do?

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I dont know how failed states are managed internationally tbh.

But I cant even imagine that because the US is so immensely powerful, everyone would be interested to shape it in their liking. 

That thought is just bonkers. 

What exactly do you have in mind when you say the US should be abolished, like what should society do?

You could have some sort of dual-power agreement where the civil authorities for local and state jurisdictions are still run by and for American citizens, but then the federal authority operates under the aegis of a larger, international administration of select high-level UN representatives, local politicians, citizen’s groups that must sign off on laws the federal government passes to make sure they don’t interfere with the fundamental rights of healthcare, democratic participation, legal protection etc. 
 

So that means no MAGA governments falsely imprisoning immigrants, no lobbying groups pushing to flood society with fentanyl or deny people healthcare, etc. If anyone has a problem with this, then you have a problem with making sure people don’t get sick from unelected corporate greed.

As for who would be allowed into this society? The same people who were SUPPOSED to be allowed into American society, but are being criminally targeted by white fascism - law-abiding immigrants and native-born locals. It wouldn’t be “anyone can enter the country at whim”, but someone from Somalia, or Honduras, or wherever else wouldn’t be illegally targeted, imprisoned or denied entry just because they’re not white. 

Companies like Amazon, Tesla etc would be nationalised due to their current parasitic business model and completely violation of worker’s rights. If someone worked for Amazon under this administration, they would be have guaranteed healthcare, vacation time, a living wage, and most likely some sort of democratic voice on the running of the company through worker boards, etc. 

Culturally, it would still be identifiably “American” (so baseball, BBQs, Boy Scouts etc) but it would no longer be based around white supremacy, toxic corporate individualism, fascist imperialism or jingoistic chauvinism. It would truly be the society that it claims it is - a nation for anyone, of any faith, to participate in society, make something of themselves and contribute to the common wellbeing out of a sense of human liberty, democracy and responsibility.

As for the military? I imagine it would still largely be America-based, but it would radically shift its foreign policy objectives to upholding international law, promotion of human rights and the security of the nation (although truthfully that last point has almost never actually been a real concern for America), rather than as a tool for, again, fascist oligarchy to enforce its despicable aims on smaller nations and the oppression of citizens on the home front.

 

I understand how out there this all seems. I understand how unlikely this is to occur. I understand a lot of people will be unhappy with that.

But so what. “Americanism” as an ideology is directly responsible for all the evil we’re seeing today, and when America itself becomes a threat to both its own people and people elsewhere, it’s time we need to radically rethink what it means to live in a collective world, the digital age, engage in democratic politics and build an ACTUALLY just, prosperous and meaningful world for everyone. The age of toxic hatred, fascism, unrepentant corporate greed and racism needs to come to an end, for us a species to survive. We have to, collectively, realise, we either cooperate and thrive or fight and perish. The stakes on this planet are way too high otherwise.

[Cred]

Omg this is so funny. This thread is really interesting for me to observe. Nothing of what you just said is new or unique to the usa or even the current time period. It is a universal phenomenon that happens in late forms of capitalism and is very well studied. It is called "gaining class consciousness".

It's also funny to observe that you scramble for solutions and wonder what actions one could take. You also realize that nobody seems to really take real actions against this (like for example the democrats or the UN)

In reality, the answer is very simple, actually. If you are a theory nerd (which you are), what you can do is learn about Marxism-Leninism and dialectical/historical materialism, join and support your nearest Marxist-Leninist org and help them systematically radicalize the oppressed working class. You can also help them apply Marxism-Leninism from a high consciousness tier 2 perspective.

This is it. This is the one solution. The one thing you can do to make this happen. And it can happen. This is historical fact.

I've already done two posts about this, where I go into more detail. Check em out:

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cred

[Apparition of Jack]

To add to the above post, keep in mind r basically already “runs” the UN, so this wouldn’t be a case of, I don’t know, Russian or Chinese oligarchs coming in and taking over the country for themselves. It would be a strictly democratic, humanitarian mission overwhelming staffed by local Americans, but perhaps with some input from certain European, African, South American etc leaders. 
 

Also, I would argue that in many senses, America is ALREADY and international society. Its banks can create or destroy smaller nations as they wish. American politics is already highly influential across the entire globe, so much so that even American political commentators are more known in foreign countries than their own local politicians. Not to mention the American military, which has up until this day effective held other nations (some of them major nations in their own right) as vassal states for their own interests. It’s why the whole world either trembles or breathes a sigh of relief depending on who gets elected in the US, considering America’s power can either destroy or stabilise countries across the planet. 
 

We already LIVE in an international society, we’ve just let toxic corporate nationalism resist this for too long. 

[Apparition of Jack]

1 minute ago, Cred said:

Omg this is so funny. This thread is really interesting for me to observe. Nothing of what you just said is new or unique to the usa or even the current time period. It is a universal phenomenon that happens in late forms of capitalism and is very well studied. It is called "gaining class consciousness".

It's also funny to observe that you scramble for solutions and wonder what actions one could take. You also realize that nobody seems to really take real actions against this (like for example the democrats or the UN)

In reality, the answer is very simple, actually. If you are a theory nerd (which you are), what you can do is learn about Marxism-Leninism and dialectical/historical materialism, join and support your nearest Marxist-Leninist org and help them systematically radicalizing the oppressed working class. You can also help them apply Marxism-Leninism from a high consciousness tier 2 perspective.

This is it. This is the one solution. The one thing you can do to make this happen. And it can happen. This is historical fact.

I've already done two posts about this, where I go into more detail. Check em out:

 

Isn’t Marxism also an internationalist movement? Wouldn’t wanting to integrate the global community be something leftists can get behind?

[Cred]

I wrote this before reading your solution. I'm reading it now

[Apparition of Jack]

I had AI make a mock-up of a hypothetical flag for this administration a while back.

Again, I get how out-there this idea is, but given how awful the global and internal situation is, is it really that crazy? At the very least, Americans (and everyone else) REALLY need to rethink global politics, democracy, cooperation, economics, sustainability etc in the face of relentless oligarchal aggression.

[Cred]

The Problem is that none of that is ever going to happen because the entire western world is run by oligarchs not just the US. The only chance to topple a western democracy is to radicalize the working class

 

[Apparition of Jack]

Something else to consider: possible unification with Canada (and, if their internal situation stabilises, Mexico.) 

Again, this would be resisted by nationalists in all those countries, but so long as a minimum level of security, prosperity and democracy can be achieved, isn’t this the way the world is already kinda heading in the first place? The internet alone has made current borders less necessary than ever. 

[Apparition of Jack]

7 minutes ago, Cred said:

The Problem is that none of that is ever going to happen because the entire western world is run by oligarchs not just the US. The only chance to topple a western democracy is to radicalize the working class

 

A Somali immigrant being targeted by ICE and their white school teacher neighbour are both part of the working class, right? Wouldn’t it make sense for leftists to support something that protects the rights of all ethnicities? 

Edited 1 hour ago by Apparition of Jack

[Cred]

All of the west is allergic to the word "nationalization" bc it smells like communism. You can't get the rest of the west to do shit bc they profit from the american system. A revolution would lead to all of your goals becomming true and is actually achievable. And there are very actionable steps you can do right now to make the revolution more likely to succeed

Edited 1 hour ago by Cred

[aurum]

That will solve nothing.

You cannot just dissolve these kind of problems away.

Edited 30 minutes ago by aurum

[Apparition of Jack]

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

That will solve nothing.

You cannot just dissolve these kind of problems away.

It’s the complete opposite of dissolving. It would be putting the US under a capable, democratic administration that has both the interest and ability to resist oligarchal and fascist overreach and instead uphold the rule of law, human rights, democratic participation and material well-being.

They did it Cambodia. They did it in East Timor. They did it in Kosovo. It could be done in the US, who is currently a rogue, fascistic oligarchal state at war with its own citizens. If that’s not cause for international intervention, what is?

[Apparition of Jack]

Ok. So maybe I was a bit hyperbolic when I said to “abolish the US.” But I still absolutely think some sort of meaningful, international oversight of US politics is desperately needed at this point.

If the US was a minor nation, everything that it’s doing to its population would've been cause for intervention a hundred times over. Its abuse of human rights has gone from questionable to utterly beyond tolerance. If the Americans can’t sort their own shit out, everyone else should step in. 
 

 

[Cred]

Bro you can't defeat imperialism with imperialism that's not how that works

You need to learn about history. Capitalist countries only fight fascist countrys when it's already to late because they profit from fascism