Why tf do we not talk about COVID?

[Elliott]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

Tell that to families living in apartments. Your attitude strikes me as very tone-deaf and callous.

I mean, apartment parents already suck, most of those kids are already screwed.

You think apartment parents take their kids to the park every weekend, what percent of apartment parents ever take their kids to the park? Just a guess.

[Apparition of Jack]

1 minute ago, Elliott said:

I mean, apartment parents already suck, most of those kids are already screwed.

You think apartment parents take their kids to the park every weekend, what percent of apartment parents ever take their kids to the park? Just a guess.

Like I said, tone-deaf and callous. Also subtle hints of out-of-touch too. 

[Elliott]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

Like I said, tone-deaf and callous. Also subtle hints of out-of-touch too. 

20%, I'd say, you disagree? I go to parks in a major city. And most of the families there are 1st generation immigrant. Australia is different than the u.s., but Americans spend a lot of time indoors.

[Apparition of Jack]

What about the paranoia of catching the disease itself? Millions of people - kids included - became terrified of going outside, touching people , catching the virus, etc. It’s like human worry doesn’t exist to you.

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

What about the paranoia of catching the disease itself? Millions of people - kids included - became terrified of going outside, touching people , catching the virus, etc. It’s like human worry doesn’t exist to you.

Humans are not fragile napkins.

Trials and tribulations, hard times, are things that grow people.

[Apparition of Jack]

7 minutes ago, Elliott said:

20%, I'd say, you disagree? I go to parks in a major city. And most of the families there are 1st generation immigrant. Australia is different than the u.s., but Americans spend a lot of time indoors.

what does immigration have to do with anything? 💀 corona didnt care if you were Latino or white lol

Obviously not everyone was seriously negatively impacted, for a lot of people (including kids) life has moved on. But for too many people it hasnt either. When doctors, nurses, teachers, parents, kids etc are saying there’s a problem then there’s got to be a problem. 
 

I mean just look at this comment from a YT documentary about coronavirus from a nurse. Obviously nurses are different to most other people, but it’s not like other people weren’t affected too. Considering, you know, it was like, everywhere 💀 

[Apparition of Jack]

5 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Humans are not fragile napkins.

Trials and tribulations, hard times, are things that grow people.

No, but when kids are suffering, you don’t pretend that they’re not. 
 

Would you tell someone who was beaten by their parents as a kid not to feel depressed? Or someone who went through war not to be angry about what happened? People need to HEAL, you don’t just dismiss people’s suffering. I mean shit someone in this thread legit has long covid lol

Edited 7 hours ago by Apparition of Jack

[zazen]

@Apparition of Jack Elliot is unable to analyse at a systems level or entirely underestimates structural factors. His analysis hinges on the individual being the ultimate decider of his fate. The same blind spot shows up in conversation with yourself, Blueoak yesterday, and me in a previous conversation about the 2008 banking crisis where he didn't see how predatory and fraudelent banking practices harmed people - instead it was the consumers choice. 

On 11/14/2025 at 5:24 PM, zazen said:

Your missing the forest for the tree's. No ones saying people are zombies with no agency or they don't have choices - it's that their agency is limited within structural constraints by a few key players who you think ''serve people'' over themselves.

I also already pointed out 2008. People lost out, the big guys didn't and still go their bonuses. 

On 11/14/2025 at 5:29 PM, Elliott said:

That's your example of harm to the populace, you think this is a good example? You don't have a specific industry or company?

 

 

On 11/14/2025 at 9:26 PM, zazen said:

Didn’t know I had to spell out everything man common.  What’s your definition of harm? 8-10million lost their homes, families thrown onto the street, lie savings evaporated. The knock on effects of all that - suicides, divorces, kids pulled out of school etc etc. Entire generation’s wealth vaporized - trillions of € gone.

But that’s a bad example of harm cos no one got shot? That’s the same surface level eyeballs saying Dems aren’t bought off - cos you think it must mean they have to have briefcases of cash snuck to them under the table lol cartoonish.

You want a name and a boogeyman to make it easy. Goldman Sachs helped create toxic mortgages, sold them to pension funds, bet against them, made billions when people lost homes - then got bailed out.

Goldman Sachs and Citigroup alumni staffed the same administration that was supposed to regulate them, right after the crash they helped cause. Nice game of revolving door.

But don’t worry - people got Instagram, lots of ice cream flavours and like a gazzilion porn vids at their disposal - “consumer choices”.

 

On 11/14/2025 at 9:45 PM, Elliott said:

So Goldman Sachs/the systen, harmed people, by giving people loans for homes they otherwise wouldn't have been able to get?

 

On 11/15/2025 at 0:06 AM, zazen said:

The harm was in setting up loans designed to fail, lying about the risk, dumping the toxic loans onto pension funds, betting against the people they sold them to, and then getting bailed out when the whole thing exploded.

If a doctor knowingly gives you a drug that makes you feel good today but destroys your organs over the years, you can’t say “well the doctor gave me medicine”

Your charts are showing metrics that go up (cars, coverage) but they don’t show people being squeezed (cost of basics relative to wages). They show activity not affordability.

People have more “stuff” because they take on more debt. Show me a chart of how many hours of work it takes to afford a home, healthcare, and college today vs 40 years ago.

On 11/15/2025 at 0:30 AM, Elliott said:

The people that were given the loans were harmed? Elaborate. Even if it was risky, it was obviously the consumers choice, AND houses were not expensive then if you're basing anything on high prices you're absolutely wrong. You would rather they been relegated to renting?

 

On 11/15/2025 at 1:10 AM, zazen said:

A chick being pumped and dumped by a playa isn’t harmed? Because even if it was risky, it was her choice and he promised her monogamy, marriage and kids.

The issue isn’t just the sticker price - but the debt product attached to it. A $200,000 house is unaffordable if the loan is structured to make the payments explode beyond your income. That’s the fraud.

They created artificial demand by giving mortgages to anyone with a pulse - little to no income verification or down payment, with adjustable rates that would explode later. That demand drove prices up - then when loans started failing (as expected) the bubble popped.

We’ve gone from discussing structural power dynamics to how the 2008 crash harmed people as if that’s a serious question to begin with. Your strawmanning my points then reducing it to “it was their choice”.

You have Google and AI to elaborate the obvious - but keep asking questions as if you want to be hand held through the obvious - AI not feeling personable enough for you? You are simply not engaging in good faith or as BlueOak said on the previous page being “deliberately obtuse”.

 

 

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

what does immigration have to do with anything? 💀 corona didnt care if you were Latino or white lol

I was pointing out the indoor culture here.

 

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

 

Obviously not everyone was seriously negatively impacted, for a lot of people (including kids) life has moved on. But for too many people it hasnt either. When doctors, nurses, teachers, parents, kids etc are saying there’s a problem then there’s got to be a problem. 
 

I mean just look at this comment from a YT documentary about coronavirus from a nurse. Obviously nurses are different to most other people, but it’s not like other people weren’t affected too. Considering, you know, it was like, everywhere 💀 

I mean, baristas are striking at Starbucks too... people like to whine.

 

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

No, but when kids are suffering, you don’t pretend that they’re not. 
 

Lol, Google "slum" and then get back to me about these Australian kids locked out of school.for 5 months.

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Would you tell someone who was beaten by their parents as a kid not to feel depressed? Or someone who went through war not to be angry about what happened? People need to HEAL, you don’t just dismiss people’s suffering. I mean shit someone in this thread legit has long covid lol

Where is this person at that I dismissed their feelings? You're hurt by covid, I don't mean to dismiss your suffering, please share.

[Elliott]

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Apparition of Jack Elliot is unable to analyse at a systems level or entirely underestimates structural factors. His analysis hinges on the individual being the ultimate decider of his fate. The same blind spot shows up in conversation with yourself, Blueoak yesterday, and me in a previous conversation about the 2008 banking crisis where he didn't see how predatory and fraudelent banking practices harmed people - instead it was the consumers choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

Still on the ad hominem kick I see...

[Apparition of Jack]

12 minutes ago, Elliott said:

I was pointing out the indoor culture here.

 

I mean, baristas are striking at Starbucks too... people like to whine.

 

Lol, Google "slum" and then get back to me about these Australian kids locked out of school.for 5 months.

Where is this person at that I dismissed their feelings? You're hurt by covid, I don't mean to dismiss your suffering, please share.

Life isn’t a zero-sum game. Someone’s suffering doesn’t disappear because someone else had worse suffering.

 

If a kid came up to you crying because he was just beaten up by bullies, would you say to him “don’t whine, my neighbour lost his legs in Vietnam?” do you think that would help the kid? Losing your legs is “worse” than being beaten up, but does that mean what the kid went through wasn’t bad?

Also I’m not just concerned for Australian kids. There’s kids in America, the UK, hell goddamn everywhere going through this. Fuck, do you think kids in the SLUMS weren’t affected? In fact, many of the poorest communities had it worse. They were the ones stuck in apartments, stuck in the city etc because they didn’t have big houses with gardens.

 

Again I keep saying COVID affected EVERYONE. Not just white kids. Not just wealthy kids. EVERYONE. What about all those “slum” kids whose parents lost jobs because of the pandemic? They exist, you know. What were they “supposed” to do? Be born rich? Lmao 

EDIT: You also havent disproven what the doctors have been saying. I ask you again - are they lying?

EDIT 2: What about long covid? What’s your answer to that?

Edited 7 hours ago by Apparition of Jack

[zazen]

@Elliott  Your responses makes sense as you shared Kinna and Graeber on the other thread and lean anarchist? You see the state as the only meaningful source of domination. But that lens creates blind spots - you treat private power as harmless individual action instead of something that can consolidate, organise with others and choose to impose violence on others living ''freely'' in a world of anarchy where no state exists to protect them.

It’s ironic because both Kinna and Graeber critiqued corporate and financial power as forms of domination - not just the state. They included economic coercion and private capital as forms of violence. Yet you excuse oligarchs, minimize 2008 and shift all blame onto ‘individual consumer choice’' which is tone deaf just as Apparition Jack has called you above.

You dick ride capitalists instead lol ''BaNkErS cOmItTeD nO HaRm BrO''

You’ve adopted anarchism’s suspicion of the state, but ignored its structural critique of private power. Graeber would’ve shredded the arguments you’ve been making.

Edited 7 hours ago by zazen

[Elliott]

12 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

If a kid came up to you crying because he was just beaten up by bullies, would you say to him “don’t whine, my neighbour lost his legs in Vietnam?” do you think that would help the kid? Losing your legs is “worse” than being beaten up, but does that mean what the kid went through wasn’t bad?

I was being sincere, your feelings are legitimate if you were harmed by covid.

 

12 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

EDIT: You also havent disproven what the doctors have been saying. I ask you again - are they lying?

I agree with the doctors, but still as I said, it's relative. The deaths and long covid were the biggest strain on society. The people that aren't sick, I don't believe were harmed much.

 

[Elliott]

14 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Elliott  Your responses makes sense as you shared Kinna and Graeber on the other thread and lean anarchist? You see the state as the only meaningful source of domination. But that lens creates blind spots - you treat private power as harmless individual action instead of something that can consolidate, organise with others and choose to impose violence on others living ''freely'' in a world of anarchy where no state exists to protect them.

It’s ironic because both Kinna and Graeber critiqued corporate and financial power as forms of domination - not just the state. They included economic coercion and private capital as forms of violence. Yet you excuse oligarchs, minimize 2008 and shift all blame onto ‘individual consumer choice’' which is tone deaf just as Apparition Jack has called you above.

You dick ride capitalists instead lol ''BaNkErS cOmItTeD nO HaRm BrO''

You’ve adopted anarchism’s suspicion of the state, but ignored its structural critique of private power. Graeber would’ve shredded the arguments you’ve been making.

If you start another thread I'll reply. I hate corporations, tax them to smithereens.

Edited 7 hours ago by Elliott

[Apparition of Jack]

1 minute ago, Elliott said:

I was being sincere, your feelings are legitimate if you were harmed by covid.

 

I agree with the doctors, but still as I said, it's relative. The deaths and long covid were the biggest strain on society. The people that aren't sick, I don't believe were harmed much.

 

I personally was pretty OK during COVID. I’ve been an introvert for a long time and I had lived many years more or less by myself beforehand so I wasn’t too impacted by it overall. I am dealing with my own personal health issues, but that’s unrelated to the pandemic. My concern is more for other people, who still haven’t physically or mentally recovered from the pandemic. 

I do hear what you’re saying, and I agree physical issues are a bigger problem than emotional ones relating to the pandemic, but I guess what we’re talking about is trauma here. Some people have the ability to shrug things off, which is good for them, really, but for a lot of people, especially developing kids, the conditions they went through during the pandemic weren’t so easy to move on from. Trauma is harder to see and more difficult to cure in some sense than physical issues, so it can be easy to dismiss it as “not really a problem”, but for the people going through it it doesn’t work that way unfortunately.

Also there’s been a lot of talk about kids during all this, but let’s not discount adults either. Even if you don’t believe the lockdown caused psychological stress (which id disagree with but w/e), you’d have to admit that sudden disruptions to the economy, socialising, spending habits etc would have an impact on a lot of people anyway, wouldn’t you agree? I mean, the terrible inflation we’ve seen over the last 5 years has more or less been caused by the pandemic alone. Just having less people working on farms, working in factories etc made the price of everything shoot up. If nothing else, can you accept that the financial crisis caused by COVID has made a lot of people anxious? 

 

[Elliott]

You just want me to admit covid had a negative impact on a lot of people. I think that's pretty well universally accepted and i agree. Ya it precipitated or inflamed short and mid-term anxiety still going on.

Our society is already overly anxious without covid though, I don't see covid as having been a real game changer. Our financial system is a house of cards, this causes widespread anxiety, covid irritating that was just that, an irritant that was combined with a juvenile response to covid, exacerbating the financial flaws.

Edited 6 hours ago by Elliott

[MightyMind]

@Elliott @Apparition of Jack @zazen

What do you guys think of the following?

Consider how they classified the unvaccinated and the vaccinated.

You can read the below quotations just above figure 2 from the CDC site https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm

"Persons were considered fully vaccinated ≥14 days after receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines) or after 1 dose of the single-dose Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) COVID-19 vaccine; partially vaccinated ≥14 days after receipt of the first dose and <14 days after the second dose in a 2-dose series; and unvaccinated <14 days receipt of the first dose of a 2-dose series or 1 dose of the single-dose vaccine or if no vaccination registry data were available"

Considering the above, what happens if someone is injured by the jab (5 days after getting it), they get hospitalized and test positive for covid. They would be classified as unvaccinated.

How does this impact case count, death count, ICU count? Does this give an accurate representation of what's actually happened? 

Do you see the problem in this? Or, what am I missing? 

 

[Elliott]

41 minutes ago, MightyMind said:

@Elliott @Apparition of Jack @zazen

What do you guys think of the following?

Consider how they classified the unvaccinated and the vaccinated.

You can read the below quotations just above figure 2 from the CDC site https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm

"Persons were considered fully vaccinated ≥14 days after receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines) or after 1 dose of the single-dose Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) COVID-19 vaccine; partially vaccinated ≥14 days after receipt of the first dose and <14 days after the second dose in a 2-dose series; and unvaccinated <14 days receipt of the first dose of a 2-dose series or 1 dose of the single-dose vaccine or if no vaccination registry data were available"

Considering the above, what happens if someone is injured by the jab (5 days after getting it), they get hospitalized and test positive for covid. They would be classified as unvaccinated.

How does this impact case count, death count, ICU count? Does this give an accurate representation of what's actually happened? 

Do you see the problem in this? Or, what am I missing? 

 

This status is only for the fact that covid can take 14 days to show. Not for adverse reporting. Vaccine is a preventive not a treatment, you'll still get sick if you already have covid.

Edited 5 hours ago by Elliott

[MightyMind]

@Elliott

50 minutes ago, Elliott said:

This status is only for the fact that covid can take 14 days to show. Not for adverse reporting. Vaccine is a preventive not a treatment, you'll still get sick if you already have covid.

what happens though, when a vaccinated person is classified as unvaccinated? and how does it impact the case count and the death count in relations to influence on the justifications of a vaccine mandate? 

[Elliott]

Just now, MightyMind said:

@Elliott

what happens though, when a vaccinated person is classified as unvaccinated? and how does it impact the case count and the death count in relations to influence on the justifications of a vaccine mandate? 

Anyone that gets the vaccine and is hurt, regardless of minimum time after getting vaccine, is listed for adverse reporting, as having received the vaccine and then experiencing a possibly adverse effect.

You're not considered vaccinated for 14 days, this is for vaccine requirements for flying, for example.