Why God Realization is an Illusion

[Breakingthewall]

@kbone

It depends on your objective. When I read these authors, my goal is purely analytical; there's nothing that interests me personally about any of the authors. I mean, what I do is an analysis like a historian, purely out of hobby, interest, not as a search. The search is within yourself, not in books. That's fine at first; when you're completely closed off, mystical authors help open your perspective. But once you reach a certain point (a fairly basic point, by the way), nothing anyone says means anything in terms of penetrating reality, since you're not operating on a conceptual level. Then you can talk about your perspectives as we do here, same than you could talk about politics or anything else, just expression

When I was absolutely blind with a wall in front of my face all time I used to think: I can't believe those authors, maybe everything are bullshit or traps. Maybe the ultimate reality in nihilism, hell or shit, everything is possible. They could be a help in the sense of...let's see all of them say that ultimately reality is not horror, then when you face horror you think...let's trust a bit and let's get deeper. But nothing else

Edited Saturday at 06:05 PM by Breakingthewall

[Sugarcoat]

19 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You have spiritual intuition and real inclination, for sure. Maybe not the fanatic will to break everything but probably you don't need it. 

I have had fanatic will to break through myself but with the goal of finding a sort of authentic better version of myself. It works to break through significantly but it doesn’t lead to complete breakthrough 

Might not be easy to understand as I find it’s a rather unique experience

Edited Saturday at 03:11 PM by Sugarcoat

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I have had fanatic will to break through myself but with the goal of finding a sort of authentic better version of myself. It works to break through significantly but it doesn’t lead to complete breakthrough 

Maybe at some point you have the need/compulsion to break through all barriers, and you focus on that to the fullest. Imo usually happens for two reasons: first, you perceive your current structure as a prison; you need depth, openness, absolute inner freedom. Second, you truly see the possibility of doing it; you sense it; it's there, just beneath the surface; you almost have it... that feeling. Then, intuitively, you do what you see leading to that. Meditation, psychedelics, or anything else you perceive as something that can help you break through the ice on the surface

[kbone]

45 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@kbone

It depends on your objective. When I read these authors, my goal is purely analytical; there's nothing that interests me personally about any of the authors. I mean, what I do is an analysis like a historian, purely out of hobby, interest, not as a search. The search is within yourself, not in books. That's fine at first; when you're completely closed off, mystical authors help open your perspective. But once you reach a certain point (a fairly basic point, by the way), nothing anyone says means anything in terms of penetrating reality, since you're not operating on a conceptual level. Then you can talk about your perspectives as we do here, same than you could talk about politics or anything else, just expression

When I was absolutely blind with a wall in front of my face all time I used to think: I can't believe those authors, maybe everything are bullshit or traps. Maybe the ultimate reality in nihilism, hell or shit, everything is possible. They could be a help in the sense of...let's see all of them say that ultimately reality is not horror, then when you face tie horror you think...let's trust a bit and let's get deeper. But nothing else

Thank you for the honesty. That says a lot.

Right, nothing anyone says means anything with respect 'to' Truth, but what eventually SEES is indicative of the depth of penetration, maybe even Nothingness awakes to what it meant by the simple word. 

Ever had a gun to your head, with the distinct possibility that one of your organs could soon be harvested if you went down the dark black alley with the perpetrators? It was a cool horror in which conscious existence came to an extreme focal point, depth remained calm, communicated in a second language in an attempt to reach a deeper layer, and found a way.

Enjoy your courtroom analyses.

[kbone]

45 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe at some point you have the need/compulsion to break through all barriers, and you focus on that to the fullest. Imo usually happens for two reasons: first, you perceive your current structure as a prison; you need depth, openness, absolute inner freedom. Second, you truly see the possibility of doing it; you sense it; it's there, just beneath the surface; you almost have it... that feeling. Then, intuitively, you do what you see leading to that. Meditation, psychedelics, or anything else you perceive as something that can help you break through the ice on the surface

Yes, no one knows how it will all turn out. Be open to what the limiteless inspires, even though the limited perception is all one has to work with... some peeps go forwards through the fog, others back up through it... ever approaching an unforeseen cliff. That last step is a doozy.

[Breakingthewall]

23 minutes ago, kbone said:

Ever had a gun to your head, with the distinct possibility that one of your organs could soon be harvested if you went down the dark black alley with the perpetrators? It was a cool horror in which conscious existence came to an extreme focal point, depth remained calm, communicated in a second language in an attempt to reach a deeper layer, and found a way.

Really? Sounds like an adventure. 

 

23 minutes ago, kbone said:

existence came to an extreme focal point, depth remained calm

I think that kind of attitude happens when the self trust is real, then panic is just an hindrance, calm is the best option to survive, it's automatic.

[kbone]

On 7/19/2025 at 11:26 AM, Breakingthewall said:

Really? Sounds like an adventure. 

Yes. And it was. In hindsight, being Present to the mind was key. It was also cool to be Present to the mind's symptomatic PTSD (quite normal), seeing it as 'objectively' as possible, not getting pulled into the story too much (thus extending 'negative' effects in repetitive fashion), not denying the mind's function/needs, allowing the psycho-physical to play out as needed. It was not so much about some self. 

 

On 7/19/2025 at 11:26 AM, Breakingthewall said:

I think that kind of attitude happens when the self trust is real, then panic is just an hindrance, calm is the best option to survive, it's automatic.

The via negativa/neti neti that you find limiting is what you're actually participating in. You do not trust others (nor should you really), and you don't like the paradoxes of others, but you love your own. In a way, one only trusts what is giving rise to their own lives  and, due to their belief in their self, think they only trust their 'self'. It's subtle, and in the movements of mind. Via one's neti neti, one may or may not arrive and realize the fully fertile Nothingness, then 'think/express' that such words refer to something flat, boring, and dead. Some minds, in turn, might express the same concept as Infinite/Unlimited, and then act out their own version of speerchal narcissism. 🥱🤣

It's especially common for peeps from "Individualistic", "Low-Context cultures" (can look it up) and societies  to misunderstand, caste dispersion on, and/or distrust the direct translations of 'reasoning' and writing styles found in "High-Context Cultures". That's a limited perspective. As such, one's conception of logic, or 'objective' world view is hardly universal (or objective), and might even come across as maniacally egoistic and deluded. Good to keep one's perception in check; question it.

Mind loves a good yarn though, thinking it can pick up one end of it, and follow it to reach the other end in order to find Truth. Years spent in the endeavor of following the string, what does it find? Paradox.... and then mind spends the next X number of years justifying it, twisting and contorting itself to sound clearer, better, more logical... and all the rest, maybe taking 5meo to express it in wilder, cooler, or more intense sounding ways. They mistake utter simplicity for being shallow, limited, petty, or lacking something, and get caught up in the web of their own thoughts.

I've always suspected that that is why Zen Masters sometimes just say to self-righteous and cogitating minds, "Shut up you poor groveling fool, get on the mat, and don't come back til you're dead." There's a great Zen story about Hakuin and his master that exemplifies it purddy well. Many here will just find it as a story of oppression/repression, failing to see the larger context, missing the nuanced implications (i.e., Japanese is a very High-Context culture, as are others). The Zen stories and koans are used for a purpose, not to express an explicit (inexpressible) Truth. Is Zen for everyone? No, it is not. Wasn't for me either (again, this mind-body seemed more aligned with Rumi, crazy wisdom-type stuff, nature, and/or an expressive approach), but I understand and can respect what they're pointing to. Peeps here often talk about intensity/dedication/devotion with their own culturo-personal twists, but then turn around and scorn other perspectives of the same ilk. Around and around it goes... god must be dying laughing. Wild! 🤣🥰🔥

The true story just shared may simply sound like a cool story. Perhaps most are not interested in the Nothingness it could point to, and just more attached to ITS apparent nature. Makes sense. Others might prefer to condemn it all as ego and wish to persecute such 'devilry' (ego often gets a bad rap when it is not understood for what it is).... all good. Makes sense, too. One's free to contemplate, or not... always free to question... always free. A great scenario is they arrive at The Great I Don't Know that rocks their world (some might have a reference for that,,, I dunno).

Come, SEE for your self ; 'kill it' and set it free once and for all, centerless... the only certainty there is. Mind you, the mind is never certain.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, kbone said:

Zen Masters sometimes just say to self-righteous and cogitating minds, "Shut up you poor groveling fool, get on the mat, and don't come back til you're dead

In my opinion giving your sovereignty to others will never work for real spiritual progress, since enlightenment is being one with the Absolute, that is, realizing that you are the Absolute and be it.  To do this, you must take full responsibility for yourself and detach yourself from any established system.

Each mental structure is unique, so by definition, no homogenizing system will work. Perhaps it will turn you into a silent and empty Zen student, nothing more.

Btw, I discovered another very interesting Sufi: Al Hallaj. A kind of Iranian Jesus Christ. Straight to the Absolute