Why God Realization is an Illusion

[kbone]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

In my observation, the main thing that will get the "Everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever" crew to wise up is continued suffering of the self-contraction. 

And then, hopefully, at some time this life or the next, transcend the self-contraction and let it die&release, which most often a daunting endeavour since it is a form of Harakiri.

And yet, all ships end up in the Ocean. The River knows the ocean, and carries all ships slowly towards it, over many lifetimes.

But most of the ships do not know the ocean. Some ships traveling the River declare that they already swim in the ocean and declare that there are no sandbanks of suffering in the River.

And since the chap Selling Water by the River has limited trust in his abilities to convince these ships about the existence of sandbanks, sometimes a  & Godspeed shout from the bank of the River has to be sufficient.

 

Shouting Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks to all fellow appearing ships in the River. And selling water. By the River.

 

It's just an expression of having 'returned to' the Garden of Eden, realizing that one had never really left. It refers to not wanting to  get caught up in the deluded mind, lost in the ignorance of thinking it is the reflection rather than the Source of the image in the reflection.

So, which do you think is worse, "selling water by the river" or "selling sand by the mirage, and constantly trying to convince others that it's water"?

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Water by the River said:

In my observation, the main thing that will get the "Everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever" crew to wise up is continued suffering of the self-contraction. 

And then, hopefully, at some time this life or the next, transcend the self-contraction and let it die&release, which most often a daunting endeavour since it is a form of Harakiri.

And yet, all ships end up in the Ocean. The River knows the ocean, and carries all ships slowly towards it, over many lifetimes.

But most of the ships do not know the ocean. Some ships traveling the River declare that they already swim in the ocean and declare that there are no sandbanks of suffering in the River.

And since the chap Selling Water by the River has limited trust in his abilities to convince these ships about the existence of sandbanks, sometimes a  & Godspeed shout from the bank of the River has to be sufficient.

 

Shouting Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks to all fellow appearing ships in the River. And selling water. By the River.

 

Translation: I'm enlightened but you aren't. What if we talk about spirituality?

What I mean is, we already know that you are enlightened and above everyone and that's great, but in that case would be a privilege to listen what you have to say about everything. It's great that you point again that you are above of the people that have written in this thread, but now that we know that you are enlightened, then, why we can't have the luck of reading your thoughts? It's not usual to find anyone in that level. 

I'm serious, I want to share ideas and insights with the most high level minds in the world. But if those insights are: I'm enlightened and you aren't, and then mute., seems that it's the same than always: let's say, not so high level 

Edited Tuesday at 11:11 AM by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

For forty years I have been selling water

by the bank of a river.

Ho, ho!

My labors have been wholly without merit.

Forty years of selling water by the river, and about fifty years before that gathering water in a wicker basket. Ho, ho!

- Sogaku Harada

 

So why should SWbtR end up with more merit than Harada? 

 

PS: 

Chapt-GPT: Interpret

"In my observation, the main thing that will get the "Everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever" crew to wise up is continued suffering of the self-contraction. And then, hopefully, at some time this life or the next, transcend the self-contraction and let it die&release, which most often a daunting endeavour since it is a form of Harakiri. And yet, all ships end up in the Ocean. The River knows the ocean, and carries all ships slowly towards it, over many lifetimes. But most of the ships do not know the ocean. Some ships traveling the River declare that they already swim in the ocean and declare that there are no sandbanks of suffering in the River. And since the chap Selling Water by the River has limited trust in his abilities to convince these ships about the existence of sandbanks, sometimes a & Godspeed shout from the bank of the River has to be sufficient. Shouting Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks to all fellow appearing ships in the River. And selling water. By the River."

 

This poetic and metaphorical passage is a critique of a certain kind of premature spiritual certainty—specifically, the claim that "everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever." Here's a breakdown of the metaphors and meaning:

🔍 Core Ideas

1. "Everyone is already enlightened" - A critique

The speaker refers to people who claim that enlightenment or realization is already fully present in everyone, and nothing needs to be done—no path, no practice, no transformation.

The speaker argues that this belief, while perhaps metaphysically appealing, often ignores the lived reality of suffering, especially what they call the "self-contraction"—a term often used in nondual and spiritual traditions to mean the sense of separateness, ego, or personal identity.

2. "Continued suffering of the self-contraction" as a wake-up call

The speaker suggests that continued suffering is what eventually forces people to re-examine their spiritual certainty.

True transcendence of this self-contraction is possible, but it's daunting—compared to Harakiri (ritual suicide) because it feels like the ego/self must die.

🌊 River, Ocean, and Ships — Spiritual Metaphors

River: The journey of spiritual development or life across lifetimes.

Ocean: Enlightenment, God-realization, or union with the divine.

Ships: Individuals on the spiritual path.

Sandbanks: Obstacles, suffering, egoic attachments that remain unacknowledged by some.

Some ships think they’re already in the ocean (already enlightened), denying the presence of sandbanks (suffering, delusion). But the speaker implies that they’re still in the river—on the way, not at the end.

🧘 "Selling Water by the River" — The Speaker’s Role

The speaker takes the humble, somewhat ironic role of someone offering help (water) to those already surrounded by water (the River)—a reference to the Zen koan: “Selling water by the river,” which points to offering teachings where they’re already available or pointing out the obvious.

But they also acknowledge the limits of their influence: they can't force realization or insight, so sometimes all they can offer is a smile ("🙂") and a Godspeed.

💬 Closing Tone

There is a tone of gentle resignation, compassion, and quiet wisdom. The speaker blesses everyone on the path—regardless of whether they acknowledge the obstacles or not.

“Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks” is both a blessing and a warning: may you travel well, but also be aware there are real challenges ahead.

“And selling water. By the River.” — with humility, they continue offering guidance to those willing to receive it.

🧭 In Short:

This passage is a poetic message to spiritual seekers—especially those who claim to have arrived. It reminds them that real realization often involves confronting deep suffering and ego-death, and that the journey isn't over just because someone says it is. All will eventually reach the ocean, but until then, be wary of sandbanks—and kind to fellow travelers.

[kbone]

13 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

For forty years I have been selling water

by the bank of a river.

Ho, ho!

My labors have been wholly without merit.

Forty years of selling water by the river, and about fifty years before that gathering water in a wicker basket. Ho, ho!

- Sogaku Harada

 

So why should SWbtR end up with more merit than Harada? 

 

PS: 

Chapt-GPT: Interpret

"In my observation, the main thing that will get the "Everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever" crew to wise up is continued suffering of the self-contraction. And then, hopefully, at some time this life or the next, transcend the self-contraction and let it die&release, which most often a daunting endeavour since it is a form of Harakiri. And yet, all ships end up in the Ocean. The River knows the ocean, and carries all ships slowly towards it, over many lifetimes. But most of the ships do not know the ocean. Some ships traveling the River declare that they already swim in the ocean and declare that there are no sandbanks of suffering in the River. And since the chap Selling Water by the River has limited trust in his abilities to convince these ships about the existence of sandbanks, sometimes a & Godspeed shout from the bank of the River has to be sufficient. Shouting Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks to all fellow appearing ships in the River. And selling water. By the River."

 

This poetic and metaphorical passage is a critique of a certain kind of premature spiritual certainty—specifically, the claim that "everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever." Here's a breakdown of the metaphors and meaning:

🔍 Core Ideas

1. "Everyone is already enlightened" - A critique

The speaker refers to people who claim that enlightenment or realization is already fully present in everyone, and nothing needs to be done—no path, no practice, no transformation.

The speaker argues that this belief, while perhaps metaphysically appealing, often ignores the lived reality of suffering, especially what they call the "self-contraction"—a term often used in nondual and spiritual traditions to mean the sense of separateness, ego, or personal identity.

2. "Continued suffering of the self-contraction" as a wake-up call

The speaker suggests that continued suffering is what eventually forces people to re-examine their spiritual certainty.

True transcendence of this self-contraction is possible, but it's daunting—compared to Harakiri (ritual suicide) because it feels like the ego/self must die.

🌊 River, Ocean, and Ships — Spiritual Metaphors

River: The journey of spiritual development or life across lifetimes.

Ocean: Enlightenment, God-realization, or union with the divine.

Ships: Individuals on the spiritual path.

Sandbanks: Obstacles, suffering, egoic attachments that remain unacknowledged by some.

Some ships think they’re already in the ocean (already enlightened), denying the presence of sandbanks (suffering, delusion). But the speaker implies that they’re still in the river—on the way, not at the end.

🧘 "Selling Water by the River" — The Speaker’s Role

The speaker takes the humble, somewhat ironic role of someone offering help (water) to those already surrounded by water (the River)—a reference to the Zen koan: “Selling water by the river,” which points to offering teachings where they’re already available or pointing out the obvious.

But they also acknowledge the limits of their influence: they can't force realization or insight, so sometimes all they can offer is a smile ("🙂") and a Godspeed.

💬 Closing Tone

There is a tone of gentle resignation, compassion, and quiet wisdom. The speaker blesses everyone on the path—regardless of whether they acknowledge the obstacles or not.

“Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks” is both a blessing and a warning: may you travel well, but also be aware there are real challenges ahead.

“And selling water. By the River.” — with humility, they continue offering guidance to those willing to receive it.

🧭 In Short:

This passage is a poetic message to spiritual seekers—especially those who claim to have arrived. It reminds them that real realization often involves confronting deep suffering and ego-death, and that the journey isn't over just because someone says it is. All will eventually reach the ocean, but until then, be wary of sandbanks—and kind to fellow travelers.

Equanimity, yes. Even after all the nonsense 'searching' got me back to exactly where I've always been... prodigal son style.

Don't really care for too much ChatGPT... too artificial for my tastes, though it can be a useful tool, hehe.

You didn't even ask it about my metaphor? What about me, me, meeeeeeee! 

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, kbone said:

You didn't even ask it about my metaphor? What about me, me, meeeeeeee! 

You made me smile. . Sorry that I didn't ask about your metaphor. Didn't understand it while reading it the first time.

1 hour ago, kbone said:

So, which do you think is worse, "selling water by the river" or "selling sand by the mirage, and constantly trying to convince others that it's water"?

I guess for ones Inner Feng Shui "selling Water by the River" helps a lot for not taking ones dream-endeavours too serious/grasping. 

 

Extreme 1: Going into a cave & smile and wave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4tF7e_2Gvw

is a bit extreme, and taking it all really serious & hard selling is also an extreme: 

Extreme 2: Hard Selling: The other extreme, grasping "selling sand by the mirage, and constantly trying to convince others that it's water" - There are large organized religions and many Solo-Prophets engaging in that business, and never quite delivering the promised results. So that dream-field is already quite crowded. I prefer the more relaxed Selling Water by the River approach-congregation, like Harada for example.

 

If one can say something like Harada at the end of this dream-cycle, I assume one has been smiling for the latter 40 years engaging in a balanced approach of responsible dream-walking:

 

For forty years I have been selling water

by the bank of a river.

Ho, ho!

My labors have been wholly without merit.

Forty years of selling water by the river, and about fifty years before that gathering water in a wicker basket. Ho, ho!

- Sogaku Harada

 

 

[James123]

33 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

For forty years I have been selling water

by the bank of a river.

Ho, ho!

My labors have been wholly without merit.

Forty years of selling water by the river, and about fifty years before that gathering water in a wicker basket. Ho, ho!

- Sogaku Harada

 

So why should SWbtR end up with more merit than Harada? 

 

PS: 

Chapt-GPT: Interpret

"In my observation, the main thing that will get the "Everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever" crew to wise up is continued suffering of the self-contraction. And then, hopefully, at some time this life or the next, transcend the self-contraction and let it die&release, which most often a daunting endeavour since it is a form of Harakiri. And yet, all ships end up in the Ocean. The River knows the ocean, and carries all ships slowly towards it, over many lifetimes. But most of the ships do not know the ocean. Some ships traveling the River declare that they already swim in the ocean and declare that there are no sandbanks of suffering in the River. And since the chap Selling Water by the River has limited trust in his abilities to convince these ships about the existence of sandbanks, sometimes a & Godspeed shout from the bank of the River has to be sufficient. Shouting Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks to all fellow appearing ships in the River. And selling water. By the River."

 

This poetic and metaphorical passage is a critique of a certain kind of premature spiritual certainty—specifically, the claim that "everyone is already enlightened/God-realized/whatever." Here's a breakdown of the metaphors and meaning:

🔍 Core Ideas

1. "Everyone is already enlightened" - A critique

The speaker refers to people who claim that enlightenment or realization is already fully present in everyone, and nothing needs to be done—no path, no practice, no transformation.

The speaker argues that this belief, while perhaps metaphysically appealing, often ignores the lived reality of suffering, especially what they call the "self-contraction"—a term often used in nondual and spiritual traditions to mean the sense of separateness, ego, or personal identity.

2. "Continued suffering of the self-contraction" as a wake-up call

The speaker suggests that continued suffering is what eventually forces people to re-examine their spiritual certainty.

True transcendence of this self-contraction is possible, but it's daunting—compared to Harakiri (ritual suicide) because it feels like the ego/self must die.

🌊 River, Ocean, and Ships — Spiritual Metaphors

River: The journey of spiritual development or life across lifetimes.

Ocean: Enlightenment, God-realization, or union with the divine.

Ships: Individuals on the spiritual path.

Sandbanks: Obstacles, suffering, egoic attachments that remain unacknowledged by some.

Some ships think they’re already in the ocean (already enlightened), denying the presence of sandbanks (suffering, delusion). But the speaker implies that they’re still in the river—on the way, not at the end.

🧘 "Selling Water by the River" — The Speaker’s Role

The speaker takes the humble, somewhat ironic role of someone offering help (water) to those already surrounded by water (the River)—a reference to the Zen koan: “Selling water by the river,” which points to offering teachings where they’re already available or pointing out the obvious.

But they also acknowledge the limits of their influence: they can't force realization or insight, so sometimes all they can offer is a smile ("🙂") and a Godspeed.

💬 Closing Tone

There is a tone of gentle resignation, compassion, and quiet wisdom. The speaker blesses everyone on the path—regardless of whether they acknowledge the obstacles or not.

“Godspeed & bon voyage & sandbanks” is both a blessing and a warning: may you travel well, but also be aware there are real challenges ahead.

“And selling water. By the River.” — with humility, they continue offering guidance to those willing to receive it.

🧭 In Short:

This passage is a poetic message to spiritual seekers—especially those who claim to have arrived. It reminds them that real realization often involves confronting deep suffering and ego-death, and that the journey isn't over just because someone says it is. All will eventually reach the ocean, but until then, be wary of sandbanks—and kind to fellow travelers.

End of spiritual seeking is the end of mind chattering. 

That's it. Lol.

 

[kbone]

42 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

For forty years I have been selling water

by the bank of a river.

Ho, ho!

My labors have been wholly without merit.

Forty years of selling water by the river, and about fifty years before that gathering water in a wicker basket. Ho, ho!

- Sogaku Harada

 

Wikipedia:

Harada has been criticized for his support of the Japanese War-endeavors.[4] A famous quote from Harada, cited in Zen at War, is:

[If ordered to] march: tramp, tramp, or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest Wisdom [of Enlightenment]. The unity of Zen and war of which I speak extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war [now under way].

 

Wonder if that included the rape and pillage of the entire Korean peninsula for 30 years and the Nanjing Massacre?

[Water by the River]

6 minutes ago, kbone said:

Wikipedia:

Harada has been criticized for his support of the Japanese War-endeavors.[4] A famous quote from Harada, cited in Zen at War, is:

[If ordered to] march: tramp, tramp, or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest Wisdom [of Enlightenment]. The unity of Zen and war of which I speak extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war [now under way].

 

Wonder if that included the rape and pillage of the entire Korean peninsula for 30 years and the Nanjing Massacre?

Zen at War - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War

-> Wilber-Combs Lattice

Complicated dream...

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

I summarize the story so you can form an accurate opinion: On the one hand, there are those who accept Advaita Vedanta (neo?) philosophy, and to some extent Buddhism: conceptual thought is maya; reality is direct, without thought. Enlightenment is already the case, but thought veils it. On the other hand, there are those who claim that reality has a source, and that source is God, and enlightenment is realizing god. Since that source is absolute, they are obviously that source. Let's say both are right and both are profoundly wrong.

First, true opening is beyond the conceptual. It is penetrating within yourself, dissolving all duality, facing your energetic barriers made of fear and desire, opening them, and becoming one with your total nature. Okay, step 1. Does this mean that conceptual thought is "maya," or rather, that it is the absolute in the form of conceptual thought? 

2. The creative source. Obviously, form exists, and obviously, form is relationship. Cause and effect, so the logical thing would be to think that there exists a primordial source that emits form: God. This isn't possible in infinity, since it would be a limit, a center. Centers are infinite; the cause has no origin, therefore, it can be developed infinitely. There is no God, or everything is God. Choose what you like best. Now I say: Let there be reality! And this phrase is infinite, therefore, it reverberates in eternity and creates an infinite chain of cause and effect that gives rise to the totality of form. But of course, any other structure does the same; everything is God, everything is cause and effect. The absolute is not the cause, is the material, the nature of the reality. Not the center, just the unlimited that inevitably allows the infinite forms . There is no beginning or end, no limits in any direction.

So, from your personal perspective, what is enlightenment? About what you say about contraction, agree. Openenss is the opposite of the contraction, or better, the absence of contraction 

Edited Tuesday at 01:26 PM by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Okay, step 1. Does this mean that conceptual thought is "maya," or rather, that it is the absolute in the form of conceptual thought? 

Depends: 1. If the thought hypnotizes, then maya. If it moves through ones Infinite Being like the wind, non-grasping, non-hypnotizing, its essence seen immediately once arising out of ones Infinite Being, as ones Infinite being: then the manifestation of the Absolute in the form of a nongrasping/non-hypontizing conceptual thought.

Although, paradoxically, there is only Absolute Being and its dream-arisings/mere apperances, either hypnotizing/maya/gripping, or non-gripping/non-hypnotizing. 

10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

So, from your personal perspective, what is enlightenment? About what you say about contraction, agree. Openenss is the opposite of the contraction..

It is fully realizing what one can never not be. What Reality is. Not as idea, but as always available realization, beyond any possible doubt. Because that would just be more thought dream-arisings happening within ones True Infinite Eternal Reality/Being.

Besides which nothing can exist. That which is always the case. Truth/Absolute has to be present always, even in Deep Sleep. That gives an idea how utterly empty and non-personal, yet real and permanent/timeless Absolute Reality is. Koan: What is Deep Sleep? What is present in Deep Sleep and right now also? Necessarily always and eternally so?

Truth. Unborn. Ones True Infinite Eternal Being. Infinite Consciousness/Being. Giving rise to all manifestations/arisings as the Clear Light of mere dream appearance, lucid and ultimately empty of self-existence. 

Infinite Consciousness/Being, dreaming all possible realms, dreaming all illusion-beings.

Utterly impersonal, silent in its raw-state, and eternal and unborn in time.

An Infinite Abyss/Opening, yet containing all possible appearances and realms arising within this Opening of Reality. And yet giving rise to illusion arisings/appearances of personal, separation, center, location, Maya.

 

And of course all words/pointers are based on Duality, and ultimately fail. So, much more precise than pointers are Koans. Like:

Koan: Who exactly is asking this question again? Who or what is this Openess/Opening?

 

Selling Water by the River

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

57 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

fully realizing what one can never not be. What Reality is. Not as idea, but as always available realization, beyond any possible doubt. Because that would just be more thought dream-arisings happening within ones True Infinite Eternal Reality/Being.

Maybe we talk about the same thing, but for me, maybe what's missing here is the realization of what reality really is. Ultimate, total reality is limitlessness. But this is only an idea. Reality isn't knowing that it's limitlessness, but rather being that limitlessness completely, opening yourself completely, temporarily erasing the limits that constitute you in this concrete form to be the "substance", independent of form. Limitlessness isn't a tranquil peace, as the Buddhists say; it's the infinite abyss of absolute potentiality. Let's say that the cause of reality is, is its limitlessness. Limitlessness is equivalent to infinite being, and its vitality, its force, its depth, are limitless. if you open yourself to it completely, you are burned, disintegrated. Only the whole remains, and in the whole, you don't know that you will always exist. "Always" means nothing; it is total, period. Enlightenment is being the total. It can't be described because any description occurs in the total. It cannot be understood either because understanding is only a structure that occurs in it, the same as form. 

Then you always perceive that reality is this, and always is, but it's veiled by the structure. You "know" as structure, but you aren't totally open, because you are also the structure. The total openess can happen in some moments, some instants. Id say that if you are all time in total openess you will die soon. It's not the natural way to be as a form. 

57 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

1. If the thought hypnotizes, then maya

The thought always hypnotize if you are closed to the limitless. It's not the thought, it's your energetic structure. The thought is just an expression, an emanation of the totality of the form, an effect that also is a cause. It's Maya if you are maya, it's open if you are open 

Edited Tuesday at 02:28 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Infinite Consciousness/Being, dreaming all possible realms, dreaming all illusion-beings

I understand you and I'm going to give you a diagnosis (I'm so smartass that I irritate myself)

In that sentence, you've said it all, and your limitations are exposed. Don't take this as an attack; read on. Perhaps there's something revealing here.

When you say that absolute being/consciousness is dreaming reality, you are operating from a limited perspective. You perceive the reality of form as a hologram, a mirage, that "consciousness" dreams. something without substance.

For you, enlightenment is the perception that this consciousness is permanent. This undoubtedly implies that you haven't opened yourself to the essence of reality. Form is not a dream; it is the inevitable expression of totality, and any form contains totality in the same way that it is contained within it. Truly, any form is totality. Conciousness is just an expression, a possibility that happens , the reality is beyond conciousness and unconsciousness. 

Absolute reality is a bottomless, boundaryless abyss that is conscious because consciousness arises within it, since its potential has no limitation. But what is is not consciousness. The reality of form is not a tranquil dream of consciousness at play, but the inevitable expression of total depth, a manifest potential that contains totality in its absolute plenitude.

The Buddhist perception of form as illusion is a closed perception. It is purely mental, but without the essential openness, which is that of the "heart" in quotation marks, signifying the real substance of reality, its unlimited vitality, its total power.

Look, everything that exists as form unfolds in infinite forms; this is absolute life, total glory. Nothing is illusory; everything is real, because the depth of everything is absolute. The depth of a thought encompasses all of reality. Illusion or mirage implies flatness, and that implies limitation. The unlimited lives, and its life is total, because it has no limits.

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:13 PM by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I understand you and I'm going to give you a diagnosis (I'm so smartass that I irritate myself)

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

In that sentence, you've said it all, and your limitations are exposed. Don't take this as an attack; read on. Perhaps there's something revealing here.

 

When you say that absolute being/consciousness is dreaming reality, you are operating from a limited perspective. You perceive the reality of form as a hologram, a mirage, that "consciousness" dreams. something without substance.

For you, enlightenment is the perception that this consciousness is permanent. This undoubtedly implies that you haven't opened yourself to the essence of reality. Form is not a dream; it is the inevitable expression of totality, and any form contains totality in the same way that it is contained within it. Truly, any form is totality. Conciousness is just an expression, a possibility that happens , the reality is beyond conciousness and unconsciousness. 

Absolute reality is a bottomless, boundaryless abyss that is conscious because consciousness arises within it, since its potential has no limitation. But what is is not consciousness. The reality of form is not a tranquil dream of consciousness at play, but the inevitable expression of total depth, a manifest potential that contains totality in its absolute plenitude.

The Buddhist perception of form as illusion is a closed perception. It is purely mental, but without the essential openness, which is that of the "heart" in quotation marks, signifying the real substance of reality, its unlimited vitality, its total power.

Look, everything that exists as form unfolds in infinite forms; this is absolute life, total glory. Nothing is illusory; everything is real, because the depth of everything is absolute. The depth of a thought encompasses all of reality. Illusion or mirage implies flatness, and that implies limitation. The unlimited lives, and its life is total, because it has no limits.

 

Well, poor chap Selling Water by the River. Writes a disclaimer...

17 hours ago, Water by the River said:

And of course all words/pointers are based on Duality, and ultimately fail. So, much more precise than pointers are Koans. Like: Koan: Who exactly is asking this question again? Who or what is this Openess/Opening?

So that means all pointers are.... limited! Because a pointer/word/statement is by definition... dualistic and limited.

... and then gets a

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

In that sentence, you've said it all, and your limitations are exposed

Pleads guilty as charged I guess.

 

Maybe you like Halaw, especially the statement marked in red:

On 16.4.2023 at 1:24 PM, Water by the River said:

Halaw writes:

"A major shortcoming with much of the nonduality pervading the modern spiritual marketplace is that it seldom acknowledges the Nothingness which permits ‘being’ in the first place. Awareness, Being, Presence—or some variation or combination of the three—and interconnectedness, seem to represent the extent of what modern nonduality is interested in.

Nothingness, however, transcends even nonduality; for while the nondual whole encompasses everything—all of ‘being’, in fact—it does not include Non-being, which precedes and acts as the very basis of ‘being’ itself.

Imagine: if nonduality, the interconnected matrix of all ‘being’, including mind or consciousness, were represented by an oil painting, then Nothingness is the canvas upon which the picture resides.

Nothingness pervades the entire nondual universe; it is the principle that permeates everything. In other words, Nothingness allows nonduality to occur in the first place, just as it does ‘being.’

The reason that the human body, mind, consciousness/awareness, interpenetrate is because Nothingness allows them to exist—or rather, they exist as manifest Nothingness.

This must be realized. Experiencing nonduality is not yet Enlightenment. We must penetrate deeper, past all sense of ‘being’, to the canvas below the paint to realize our and all beings’ true nature as boundless Nothingness. When that happens, ordinary mind becomes the Mind of the sages.

Buddha Mind, then, is the mind’s recognition of its own empty, groundlessness, not as some eternal supreme principle called Awareness, but as the very living, conscious embodiment of Nothingness in this world, at this very moment.

It is not an exaggeration to say that consciousness is the act of Nothingness being aware. To know ultimate Nothingness, jettison everything. That means the world, your body, mind, ideas, beliefs, saviors, prophets, Buddhas, and even consciousness itself. Everything in the manifest realm must go."

... and "even consciousness itself". 

and

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Halaw&author=Water%20by%20the%20River

and

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=sentience&author=Water%20by%20the%20River

and

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Neti%20Neti&author=Water%20by%20the%20River

 

If you allow, before we turn in circles and many replies are requested, instead of continuing discussing about pointers which are by definition insufficient and limited (see the disclaimer), lets do a shortcut. You can consider the quote below as a general answer in case I can't always give feedback on your points and questions:

17 hours ago, Water by the River said:

And of course all words/pointers are based on Duality, and ultimately fail. So, much more precise than pointers are Koans. Like:

Koan: Who exactly is asking this question again? Who or what is this Openess/Opening?

Besides: It is very good that you don't equate (self)-consciousness (which is an appearance) nor anything else that is merely temporarily arising with Absolute Reality. Neti neti.

 

Chanting who is stating all these points again by the River

 

PS: “That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real.” -Ramana Maharshi

PS PS: Complaints and unclarities about this statement please directly to its author. Preferably in the form of a Koan. Because the essence of Ramana is also right here, right now.

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Imagine: if nonduality, the interconnected matrix of all ‘being’, including mind or consciousness, were represented by an oil painting, then Nothingness is the canvas upon which the picture resides.

Halaw said that, but it's deeply dual , that is, closed, or if you prefer, limited. Nothingness is just an appearance that is opposite to something or everything. The ultimate nature of reality is limitlessness and can't be said, thought or represented in any way. It includes nothingness, something, conciousness, unconsciousness . When I read that paragraph of halaw I perceive absolutely clear that he didn't opened that door .

when hallaw he said that Buddha recognize his own emptiness, groundless, he's equating emptiness with groundless, which is not equivalent at all. Empty is the opposite of full; groundless is the absence of boundaries.

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

is not an exaggeration to say that consciousness is the act of Nothingness being aware.

Great that you don't think that the reality is conciousness, the reality is conciouss. Conciousness It's not the act of nothingness, is the act of the tao, if you prefer the tradition. If you define the tao as nothingness, you are defining what can't be defined. Here I catched you eh 😉. 

About you said about the pointers, they must be clean and direct as an arrow, transparent and perfect as a diamond. Any imperfection must be destroyed by the fire of the unthinkable without mercy. That's the only way to talk about this topic without being a joke

Edited Wednesday at 09:47 AM by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you define the tao as nothingness, you are defining what can't be defined. Here I catched you eh 😉. 

"It is neither being nor nothingness":

On 27.12.2024 at 8:04 PM, Water by the River said:

Letters of Bassui, in Kapleau, Three Pillars of Zen:

4. To a Dying Man
Your Mind-essence is not subject to birth or death. It is neither being nor nothingness, neither emptiness nor form-and-color. Nor is it something that feels pain or joy. However much you try to know [with your rational mind] that which is now sick, you cannot. Yet if you think of nothing, wish for nothing, want to understand nothing, cling to nothing, and only ask yourself, “What is the true substance of the Mind and of this one who is now suffering?” ending your days like clouds fading in the sky, you will eventually be freed from your painful bondage to endless change.

8. First Letter to the Zen Priest Iguchi

An ancient Zen master [Rinzai] said: “You should not cling to the idea that you are Pure-essence.” And again: “Your physical body, composed of the four basic elements, can’t hear or understand this preaching. The empty-space can’t understand this preaching. Then what is it that hears and understands?” Meditate fully and directly on these words. Take hold of this koan as though wielding the jewelsword of the Vajra king. Cut down whatever appears in the mind. When the thoughts of mundane matters arise, cut them off. When notions of Buddhism arise, likewise lop them off. In short, destroy all ideas, whether of realization, of Buddhas, or of devils, and all day long pursue the question “What is it that hears this preaching?” When you have eradicated every conception until only emptiness remains, and then cut through even the emptiness, your mind will burst open and that which hears will manifest itself. Persevere, persevere—never quit halfway—until you reach the point where you feel as though you have risen from the dead. Only then will you be able to wholly resolve the momentous question, “What is it that hears this preaching?”

Madhyamaka: "Its character is neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither. / Centrists should know true reality / That is free from these four possibilities."

On 30.11.2024 at 11:30 AM, Water by the River said:

Actualized Quotes '094:

"God, Truth, Consciousness, Love cannot be defined because they are everything - Totality."

"But the totality of existence has nothing against which it can be defined".

"If you could define God, it wouldn't be God".

"The technical answer is: Consciousness is Undefined".

"Being undefined is what makes Consciousness divine".

 

Very good! Especially something for the Absolute Solipsism Aficionados, which are still banging their heads against the conceptual walls hiding the above mentioned undefineable (but realizeable) nonconceptual Absolute Truth.

Admittedly, not exactly a new insight. A guy called Nagarjuna had the exact same realizations, which resulted in Mahayana Buddhism and the Middle Way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka

"Its character is neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither. / Centrists should know true reality / That is free from these four possibilities."

But definitely correct.

And everbody having had Full Enlightenment of course also had that realization, by definition.

 

On 21.5.2023 at 1:40 PM, Water by the River said:

I use Nothingness in the definition of  Andrew Halaw, to contrast it with Nothing. Nothing has a opposite: Something. Nothingness is neither existence nor non-existence. Madhyamaka-style. Neither existing nor non-existing, nor both, nor neither. Infinite.

in

(Not quite) guilty as charged by the River 

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River

5 hours ago, Water by the River said:

 

So they call it "nothing" when they don't mean "nothing." Then maybe they complain that no one understands them? Or maybe they don't want to be understood so they can seem mysterious? Or maybe they don't know exactly what they're talking about? Maybe they just intuit it, but if you ask them directly, they'll tell you a koan or beat you with a cane until you're unconscious, because they don't know what to say

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Nothingness is neither existence nor non-existence. Madhyamaka-style.

Existence is the expression of the reality, non existence is the reality without expression. It's not a mystery, it's obvious: existence means change, becoming. Reality emits, or if you prefer, inevitably allows, infinite potential by the fact of the limitlessness, and what finds a synchronous relationship exists. It is movement relative to another movement, coherent perspectives in infinite dimensions reflecting each other and thus existing. You can say they are only images, but their essence is totality. Ontologically, what exists is no different from what does not exist; the only difference is circumstantial, the possible possibility.

Existence or relative movement is the root of consciousness, in which reality unfolds into two planes of existence and perceives itself. Ultimate reality does not require existence or consciousness; these occur as inevitable potential given the absence of limits.

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Your physical body, composed of the four basic elements, can’t hear or understand this preaching. The empty-space can’t understand this preaching. Then what is it that hears and understands

Understanding is just an arising that happens in existence, has no meaning from an unlimited perspective. The unlimited has no perspective, the perspectives happen in it, but we are the essence and the arising, so we are the whole and the perspective. The totality is not understanding or hearing of perceiving, understanding, hearing and perception happens, are the same than anything else, inevitable potential developing in infinite possibilities. 

The real openess to our ultimate nature happens and it's perceived by the form that exist, by the becoming, but it doesn't means that the totality "wants" to perceive itself, or need it, or even is doing it. it's just inevitable arising, it happens. You could say that the intelligence that arises is infinite, it's god, infinite gods, anything. That's only arisings between infinite possibilities. The totality is total, period. You can be open to it, nothing else. The totality don't "do", doing happens in it. What we are is same time happening and totality, as any relative movement has the totality as essence. 

We could say that the human perspective, therefore, is not the perspective of the totality as a subject, but rather a localized manifestation of that totality, a configuration of limits that occurs within the unlimited. To attribute a human perspective to the whole would be to define the totality as a subject , reducing it to a finite form, which is a logical contradiction, since the absolute cannot have form without ceasing to be absolute. 

Then reality perceives itself not because it has intention or identity, but because unlimited openness allows for conscious forms that can reflect its own nature. In this recognition, there is a self, an structured relational node that appears due the infinite relation that open it's perception breaking the barriers that construct itself as a possible entity within the whole and perceives its absolute essence. The perception of the absolute is a local phenomenon. It may be infinite, as indeed it inevitably is, but it is not the absolute; it is a manifestation of the absolute. There is no mystery or koan, it's obvious and direct

Edited Wednesday at 01:06 PM by Breakingthewall

[kbone]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Halaw said that, but it's deeply dual , that is, closed, or if you prefer, limited. Nothingness is just an appearance that is opposite to something or everything. The ultimate nature of reality is limitlessness and can't be said, thought or represented in any way. It includes nothingness, something, conciousness, unconsciousness . When I read that paragraph of halaw I perceive absolutely clear that he didn't opened that door .

when hallaw he said that Buddha recognize his own emptiness, groundless, he's equating emptiness with groundless, which is not equivalent at all. Empty is the opposite of full; groundless is the absence of boundaries.

Great that you don't think that the reality is conciousness, the reality is conciouss. Conciousness It's not the act of nothingness, is the act of the tao, if you prefer the tradition. If you define the tao as nothingness, you are defining what can't be defined. Here I catched you eh 😉. 

About you said about the pointers, they must be clean and direct as an arrow, transparent and perfect as a diamond. Any imperfection must be destroyed by the fire of the unthinkable without mercy. That's the only way to talk about this topic without being a joke

The concepts of Limitless/Open point to the exact same realization of Nothingness which, is also the same as Tao. If one thinks it's flat, boring, lacking, etc, one hasn't realized it as the formlessness/Presence (but, right, more concepts -dual in their nature/function-... without which communication is impossible).

Problems for the unrealized: They are just concepts, until fully realized right HERE, right NOW for what they point to, which just so happens to be right HERE, right NOW. If they are only sensed as potential, they are not practical. If they are fleeting, they are impermanent. If only reasonably derived from disjointed moments of clarity and/or drug-induced woweezowees, they are woven together via mental processes.

It's like going to a restaurant that serves only menus. Makes for a scrumptiously good read, but lacks true Limitless Nothingness, without which, all appears in limited and limiting fashion. Furthermore, what is Beloved doesn't appear either (hint: if it hasn't, the mind gets antsy).

In/As Limitless Awareness-Stillness-Nothingness, limitless Consciousness-Movement-Everything arises.

Form is formless; formlessness is form.

Sahaja

The mind, typically attenuated and fixated on its story, goals, logic, conclusions, and housing the fully clothed and conditioned finite self, cannot fathom its depths and infinite potential. But the mind can be investigated, unwound, unraveled, and put in its place; informed of its secondary status. Just doing that, one can reap the rewards of relatively conscious human adulthood.

Anyone care for some water with their menu? 🥛

Edited Wednesday at 12:31 PM by kbone

[Breakingthewall]

46 minutes ago, kbone said:

The concepts of Limitless/Open point to the exact same realization of Nothingness which, is also the same as Tao.

Nothingness is a word with a meaning, means absence of anything. If we want to use the language we should use the words knowing it's meaning. If you say that the totality is a dog, but not a dog in the sense of the dogs that we know, but an infinite dog without definite characteristics, then why are you using the word dog? Better trying to explain without words that implies an idea that tends to confusion 

Same than stillness. Who is still is the zen master, the absolute is not still, still means absence of movement. Stillness or movement has not meaning in the absolute

Edited Wednesday at 01:14 PM by Breakingthewall

[kbone]

38 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Nothingness is a word with a meaning, means absence of anything. If we want to use the language we should use the words knowing it's meaning. If you say that the totality is a dog, but not a dog in the sense of the dogs that we know, but an infinite dog without definite characteristics, then why are you using the word dog? Better trying to explain without words that implies an idea that tends to confusion 

What is pointed to (call it whatever you want) has no attributes. There will always be more questions, because the ignorance and confusion are born of the mind (i.e., at the 'level' of the mind, which cannot see beyond itself, but can be informed by Realization). In memory, I've always been intrigued by the fact that 'Nothing' was the first word that emerged in the mind when I first inquired mentally about 'what just happened' just after the initial massive collapse, so there's that. It was more than descriptive though, IF ya know what I mean. Existential clarity like no other emerging in/as ITS profundity,,,

There isn't really anything one can say about Nothingness, so there's always more to say.

Nothing is unexplainable.

👁️

Everything is a mystery.

Edited Wednesday at 01:56 PM by kbone

[Breakingthewall]

53 minutes ago, kbone said:

What is pointed to (call it whatever you want) has no attributes.

You could say It has, it's total because it is limitless, "nothingness" is not a pointer, it's a misleading idea. Maybe it's pointed by some people who don't know what are talking about but they need to appear whise? Just a possibility .

Do you know something? There are people who are so concerned about their self image that they invent that they are enlightened and they believe that history, and it's absolutely impossible that they see the that they are creating an history. It's fascinating to see that phenomenon, not always easy to detect. It's very important to understand that this is always a possibility, because if not it's easy to get lost in the games of some people 

Edited Wednesday at 02:21 PM by Breakingthewall