Meditation as the unwinding of energy

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Grounding in my body forces a state change. Takes me out of the mind chatter.

So movement + breath. Thoughts begin to slow, then cease. From here expanding consciousness comes so easily (for me). 

The contemplation/self-enquiry is essential. Otherwise, I haven't found a way to integrate the experience. And without the contemplation & integration the elevated consciousness cannot be taken into typical human life.

+ 1 for body, movement, breath 

I don't do contemplation + self-inquiry, this keeps me from action. Seems like a detour for me.

Action, interaction= key for me for integration and evolving further 

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

+ 1 for body, movement, breath 

I don't do contemplation + self-inquiry, this keeps me from action. Seems like a detour for me.

Action, interaction= key for me for integration and evolving further 

Ego putting up it's defense.  Self inquiry is the ONLY thing that will penetrate.. Which is precisely why you conveniently avoid it.

[theleelajoker]

8 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Ego putting up it's defense.  Self inquiry is the ONLY thing that will penetrate.. Which is precisely why you conveniently avoid it.

Don't get what you mean. How is it putting up defense? How and why only thing to penetrate? 

And contemplation means for me "thinking", for instance with a question like "who am I?" --> leads to only thinking. What I do is sit, walk, lying down etc and just feeling & obsverving

Edited July 14 by theleelajoker

[Inliytened1]

Just now, theleelajoker said:

Don't get what you mean. How is it putting up defense? How and why only thing to penetrate? 

And contemplation means for me "thinking", for instance with a question like "who am I?" --> leads to only thinking. What I do is sit, walk, lying down etc and just feeling

Enlightenment is a fight.  Its a fight between you and your ego.  The problem right now is - you are the ego.  See the other side.  You don't want to do self inquiry.  Maybe there's a reason for that? If you don't look too far into yourself then maybe you will never see through the illusion. 

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

When it comes to spirituality it's about being transpersonal.

And that's also why you think substance in teaching is problematic, because the distinction between teaching and truth is less firm ("it's all mind so we must limit mind").

[theleelajoker]

8 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Enlightenment is a fight.  Its a fight between you and your ego.  The problem right now is - you are the ego.  See the other side.  You don't want to do self inquiry.  Maybe there's a reason for that? If you don't look too far into yourself then maybe you will never see through the illusion. 

Can you give an example of how you do it? And what it does for you?

Still see no argument why it should be the ONLY way. My experience is that there are many methods that can complement each other / alternate over time. 

And why always this end goal of enlightenment? Afterwards what you do? Action.

And why a fight? Make it fun as much and often as possible. If it's not fun all the time, believe that it can / will be fun

Edited July 14 by theleelajoker

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Can you give an example of how you do it? And what it does for you?

Just find out what you think you are.

Are you the body? The soul? I thought I was the soul until I realized that even that too..was a thought.   Be careful what you might discover here.  It will alter your life forever. 

[theleelajoker]

36 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Just find out what you think you are.

Are you the body? The soul? I thought I was the soul until I realized that even that too..was a thought.   Be careful what you might discover here.  It will alter your life forever. 

Look, I think you're trying to help, but if you want to do that - do it best by answering my questions instead of asking more questions. 

It seems you are trying to point me to sth without questioning if what you are pointing to is maybe something I am already aware of? 

What I am - everything and nothing. Tat tvam asi. The process itself, awareness. My life has changed forever, took me a while to integrate but here we are now.  Did not need any self inquiry for that, just sitting and feeling. 

Maybe there is more I am not aware of? Defintely! I know there are further barriers because I touched them. So How find out more?

One approach to find out the "more" for me is to keep looking inside, another one is to act and another one is to ask questions and learn about the experience of others as I am doing now. If I want more questions, I ask for more questions. If I want answers to my questions, I ask for answers. VERY SIMPLE.

So, if you want to be helpful say "I don't want to answer your questions" or al least reply to my questions before giving me more questions before even veryfying is they are of any use for me. For now, the questions you asked are of no use for me. 

All this meta stuff is very tiring for me, real experience, first person experience is what I am interested in. You made some statements, I asked questions about it, you did not answer but evaded those questions. You don't want to share your answers - OK, just say it directly pls. 

Edited July 14 by theleelajoker

[Carl-Richard]

11 hours ago, aurum said:

It is not rare at all. Understanding feels available to me at almost all times, if I choose. Very self-sustaining.

Sometimes I do get distracted and lose awareness though.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by running up against a threshold or state-maximizing. Explain?

I'm just trying to judge how far you are from Enlightenment. But anyways.

Is there nothing physical going on in your meditation? Do you not get more and more relaxed as your meditation deepens? Do you not feel your muscles becoming more loose and your body becoming lighter? I'm just pointing out that there is a certain logic behind this that you can tap into and that you can become more aware of.

Edited July 14 by Carl-Richard

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

Look, I think you're trying to help, but if you want to do that - do it best by answering my questions instead of asking more questions. 

It seems you are trying to point me to sth without questioning if what you are pointing to is maybe something I am already aware of? 

What I am - everything and nothing. Tat tvam asi. The process itself, awareness. My life has changed forever, took me a while to integrate but here we are now.  Did not need any self inquiry for that, just sitting and feeling. 

Maybe there is more I am not aware of? Defintely! I know there are further barriers because I touched them. So How find out more?

One approach to find out the "more" for me is to keep looking inside, another one is to act and another one is to ask questions and learn about the experience of others as I am doing now. If I want more questions, I ask for more questions. If I want answers to my questions, I ask for answers. VERY SIMPLE.

So, if you want to be helpful say "I don't want to answer your questions" or al least reply to my questions before giving me more questions before even veryfying is they are of any use for me. For now, the questions you asked are of no use for me. 

All this meta stuff is very tiring for me, real experience, first person experience is what I am interested in. You made some statements, I asked questions about it, you did not answer but evaded those questions. You don't want to share your answers - OK, just say it directly pls. 

Dude..what are you talking about? Im.not evading anything ask away. I was being real with you. Self inquiry is about finding out what the heck you are.   What are you? Have you stopped and inquired? Its quite scary if you actually stop and inquire.

Edited July 14 by Inliytened1

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Dude..what are you talking about? Im.not evading anything ask away. I was being real with you. Self inquiry is about finding out what the heck you are.   What are you? Have you stopped and inquired? Its quite scary if you actually stop and inquire.

OK, sorry I think it's hard to have high quality conversation via messages on a forum. Lot's of room for gaps in communication / missunderstanding. 

I'll try better, more precise: 

• What is the reason you believe its the ONLY way? How EXACTLY does the ego put up defense? Is it just keeping yourself busy? 
• Are there feelings in the body, resistence during self inquiry? 
• Why do you believe it has to be a fight? Is it possible that it is only a fight because we make it one?
• HOW EXACTLY are you doing it, the self-inquiry? What thoughts come up? Do you just repeat the question in your mind? Where exactly is your attention? Does your attention stay or move? Are you sitting still or moving? 
• Why do you see enlightenement as the end goal? What is enlightenment for you personally? Realizing you are more than the "skin-encapsulted ego"? More than that? Why should there be a final enlightenment? What to do afterwards? 
• What changed after your realization? What DO you do differently? What does FEEL different?
• What EXACTLY is scary? Why is it scary? 

You understand why "it's about finding out who you are" seems like a insufficent reply to me?  I don't have the expectation of you replying to all of the questions above, that would probably be 1000+ word reply, but those are the questions I am curious about, your personal experience. Pick the one(s) u feel comfortable to reply to

To give you an example how the process is for me and what changed: 

• In meditation, I felt (twice) a deep vibration inside me. My body starts to twich when I let go, some energy flowing. It feels that I am simply a vessel for this energy. I can simply decide to let the energy flow or not (=resistance, tension in body)
• Re the illusion, OK I have seen people right in front of me being just colorful fractals. No substance. They were talking fractals.  If I had looked into a mirrow at this time, I probaly would have seen the same with me. Different emotions had different colours.  So where's the "human"? 
• I become aware how others are just reflections and appearences. Certain energetic patterns that come across my life based on my own inner patterns. I am in state X, I have emotions Y, I think of Z, and XYZ happens soon afterwards
• I become aware that there are no real boundaries. "People" I see for the first time know and say things about me they can't know based on physical 3-D laws. I realize it all being a big process, I am always communicating with one "consciousness" that is simply covered by human appearences. It's like talking to my own subconscious non-stop

Especially the last point was scary for me. It was like "everybody knows everything about me, no secrets". But it also makes me incredibly free because there is no point in hiding anything

Edited July 14 by theleelajoker

[aurum]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is there nothing physical going on in your meditation? Do you not get more and more relaxed as your meditation deepens? Do you not feel your muscles becoming more loose and your body becoming lighter?

Relaxation, yes.

That was one of things that hooked me in my early 20s on meditation. After my first month of consistent meditation, I had such an intense experience of relaxation that it rolled into essentially total bliss. I felt like I had taken MDMA. The afterglow lasted for about a week.

Years later, I did a 10-day Vispassana retreat where I also had some interesting bliss experiences. I also unlocked some sort of energetic buzzing at the base of the right side of my neck. Afterwards, the buzzing in this spot would often reactivate when I did energy work, or sometimes just spontaneously. At one point when I was being very consistent with my practice, it would reactivate daily. I could essentially turn it on and off at will.

Also around this time, I would occassionally wake up in the middle of the night to my spine spasming, almost like I was having a non-sexual orgasm. It was not as pleasant though.

So yes, I've experienced relaxation, buzzing, tingling, etc. But I would not use terms like "unwinding", "shooting out the top of my head" or anything like this.

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm just trying to judge how far you are from Enlightenment. But anyways.

I would just caution against judging awakening from any physical feats or interesting energetic experiences.

Physical feats are more dream-content and may be misleading.

What's essential is understanding of reality.

You could cut my leg off and my understanding of reality would not change at all, even though my physical health and vitality would be diminished. 

[Carl-Richard]

35 minutes ago, aurum said:

Relaxation, yes.

That was one of things that hooked me in my early 20s on meditation. After my first month of consistent meditation, I had such an intense experience of relaxation that it rolled into essentially total bliss. I felt like I had taken MDMA. The afterglow lasted for about a week.

Years later, I did a 10-day Vispassana retreat where I also had some interesting bliss experiences. I also unlocked some sort of energetic buzzing at the base of the right side of my neck. Afterwards, the buzzing in this spot would often reactivate when I did energy work, or sometimes just spontaneously. At one point when I was being very consistent with my practice, it would reactivate daily. I could essentially turn it on and off at will.

Also around this time, I would occassionally wake up in the middle of the night to my spine spasming, almost like I was having a non-sexual orgasm. It was not as pleasant though.

So yes, I've experienced relaxation, buzzing, tingling, etc. But I would not use terms like "unwinding", "shooting out the top of my head" or anything like this.

Ok so you agree that there is a progression from tension to relaxation (unwinding of energy) in the body and that this occurs in different parts of the body. You just don't feel it around your head area or that there is energy moving towards it.

Do you experience the "transmutation" I described with sexual energy (it increasing mental clarity when not released)?

 

35 minutes ago, aurum said:

I would just caution against judging awakening from any physical feats or interesting energetic experiences.

That was not what I was doing, but I agree it's mostly a futile exercise to judge awakening through questioning.

Edited July 14 by Carl-Richard

[aurum]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Ok so you agree that there is a progression from tension to relaxation (unwinding of energy) in the body and that this occurs in different parts of the body. You just don't feel it around your head area or that there is energy moving towards it.

I'd say that's accurate.

Any energetic experiences do not appear to have any sort of directionality. And relaxation feels more mental / emotional than physical. I once had a bliss experience during a Strong Determination Sitting, where I was in pretty significant physical pain.

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you experience the "transmutation" I described with sexual energy (it increasing mental clarity when not released)?

No.

The only thing releasing sexual energy does is affect my sex drive. If I'm releasing a lot, then my sex drive goes down. If I retain, then usually my sex drive feels a lot more "primed".

Nothing else really changes.

It's analogous to eating a meal. If I just ate a meal, I'm probably not going to be hungry for a little while. But that's about the extent it affects me. There's not much of a noticable spillover effect to other areas of my life.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

I'd say that's accurate.

Any energetic experiences do not appear to have any sort of directionality. And relaxation feels more mental / emotional than physical. I once had a bliss experience during a Strong Determination Sitting, where I was in pretty significant physical pain.

No.

The only thing releasing sexual energy does is affect my sex drive. If I'm releasing a lot, then my sex drive goes down. If I retain, then usually my sex drive feels a lot more "primed".

Nothing else really changes.

It's analogous to eating a meal. If I just ate a meal, I'm probably not going to be hungry for a little while. But that's about the extent it affects me. There's not much of a noticable spillover effect to other areas of my life.

Interesting. I guess it underscores the fact that realizing formlessness does not necessarily depend on anything happening in form, such as knowledge or sensitivity of energy phenomena.

[Carl-Richard]

Let me clarify for the thread in general that this energy I'm referring to is not something exotic and "other" that you have to discover like some hidden dimension or realm. It's identical to your body. It's just that it requires approaching it with your attention like a microscope, to try to see the very smallest and finest details. Like there are microorganisms in your body, there are micro-movements and micro-physiological events in your body that you can become aware of. Your awareness of these phenomena is what the energy is. Really everything in your body, even the most gross and obvious movements, like lifting your arm, is this energy. I'm just talking about the subtler and finer detail movements.

[aurum]

53 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Interesting. I guess it underscores the fact that realizing formlessness does not necessarily depend on anything happening in form, such as knowledge or sensitivity of energy phenomena.

Yes that sounds right.

If you have some extra sensitivity, that's interesting. Maybe it's even useful.

 But are you conscious of what it is you're sensitive to? What is energy, ontologically?

Animals are sensitive to all sorts of phenomena humans are not sensitive to. But they are not conscious.

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, aurum said:

But are you conscious of what it is you're sensitive to? What is energy, ontologically?

Animals are sensitive to all sorts of phenomena humans are not sensitive to. But they are not conscious.

Using the word "ontologically" makes it seem like a deep thing, but it's really just me. What I see, what I feel, what I sense, is just me. It is made out of me. We call it "consciousness" when we want to contrast it to some notions of materialism. But we don't need to call it much.

Going beyond the ontological ground, operationalizing it, that is what I've done here.

[aurum]

22 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Using the word "ontologically" makes it seem like a deep thing, but it's really just me. What I see, what I feel, what I sense, is just me. It is made out of me. 

Yes, but also what are you? What is "me" made out of?

The ontology question is absolutely deep and extremely serious. Realization of the ontological nature of reality should leave a person shell-shocked, if they haven't realized that already.

22 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

We call it "consciousness" when we want to contrast it to some notions of materialism. But we don't need to call it much.

It's not just contrast to materialism.

Consciousness is a great word. It describes it very well.

22 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Going beyond the ontological ground, operationalizing it, that is what I've done here.

That's only meaningful if someone has understood the ontological ground first. Which almost no one has.

Most spiritual people are playing energy-games and doing little to no actual ontology.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

Yes, but also what are you? What is "me" made out of?

The ontology question is absolutely deep and extremely serious. Realization of the ontological nature of reality should leave a person shell-shocked, if they haven't realized that already.

It's not just contrast to materialism.

Consciousness is a great word. It describes it very well.

That's only meaningful if someone has understood the ontological ground first. Which almost no one has.

Most spiritual people are playing energy-games and doing little to no actual ontology.

Here here.