A proposal for the "Enlightenment" discussions

[theleelajoker]

In the past, I have heard and seen so much definitions, discussions, dilutions, delusions and other BS surrounding this term "Enlightenment" and "Awakening" especially here in this forum.  Enlightenment is this, sainthood is this, awakening is that etc etc.

So when I saw the definition "7 factors of Enlightenment"  given by Siddhartha Gautama I was wondering: Why not use this as a basis for having a discussion about this enlightenement state/process as objectively as possible? According to all sources I know, there seems to be pretty valid consensus that Buddha knew what he was taking about (correct me if you know credible evidence that the Buddha was full of shit)

So when you talk about definitions of being awake and enlightened etc, either a) make transparent that you created your own "elightmentment defintion" or b) let's refer to these 7 factors.

And talking about being "enlightented" or "fully awake" or other similiar claims:  So if you can truthfully confirm to be at least very close to all these factors, we can have a serious discussion.

Disclaimer: 

Of course, this approach is not perfect. E.g. the translations and interpretations vary due to the nature of Pali language of that time and the nature of language itself. For instance, when I read about the meaning of the 7 factors on different languages, the connotations, the meanings change a bit. That's the reason why I did not put a link or list of the 7 factors here - better to do your own research with the source and language of your choice.

Still, even when not perfect, this approach is IMO better then anything else I have seen so far. Happy to hear feedback on how to improve this appraoch. 

Edited June 17 by theleelajoker

[Keryo Koffa]

joy = tranquility = equanimity, mindfulness = concentration = investigation of phenomena = effort

Sounds like Relaxation and Discernment to me, so like the ajna chakra and some crown openings maybe.

But then you can abstract into Awareness or define countless mediums, 114 chakras or infinite sanskrit practices.

[Carl-Richard]

No 🙂

[theleelajoker]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

No 🙂

To what?

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

To what?

You can't feed traditional religion to a New Age cat 🐱

Edited June 17 by Carl-Richard

[Keryo Koffa]

Dude, this is like, so last 'yuga 💀

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

You can't feed religion to a New Age cat 🐱

Heh? I have no idea where "religion" is coming from now

Cambridge dictionary: Religion =  the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

As far as I see it, I proposed a defintion for a word/concept based on the (assumed) statements of another person

Edited June 17 by theleelajoker

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Heh? I have no idea where "religion" is coming from now

Cambridge dictionary: Religion =  the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

As far as I see it, I proposed a defintion for a word/concept based on the (assumed) statements of another person

Buddhism is a religion.

[theleelajoker]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Buddhism is a religion.

Dude, are you trolling me or stuck in your own BS?

Show me where I used the word "buddhism" in my OP. You can pick elements and parts of ideas and ignore the rest.

It's like saying "I don't eat vegetables because I am not a vegetarian" lol

 

Edited June 17 by theleelajoker

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Dude, are you trolling me or stuck in your own BS?

Show me where I used the word "buddhism" in my OP.

"Let's use one way to define Enlightenment based on the words of the main religious figure of a world religion on a forum where people mix and match knowledge from all places to inform their view on a topic".

Edited June 17 by Carl-Richard

[theleelajoker]

24 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

"Let's use one way to define Enlightenment based on the words of the main religious figure of a world religion on a forum where people mix and match knowledge from all places to inform their view on a topic".

What did you smoke my friend? 

1. You project "religion"  and "buddhism" on a post where I talked about the definition of a concept / word
2. According to the sources I know, "religion" was the last thing Buddha wanted. Rather emphasis on personal experience. IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU PROJECTING THEIR OWN BS ON THINGS THAT PREVENTS TRUE OPENNESS AND LEARNING
3. ITS YOU MAKING A RELIGIOUS ISSUE of this post I never said anything related to that
4. ITS YOU MAKING A POINT of "mixing and matching knowledge" and indicating that I try to prevent that. DID YOU FUCKING READ THE PASSAGE WHERE I SAID "Happy to hear feedback on how to improve this approach"?
5. I am not a Buddhist and I don't try to convert anyone 
6. I could go on but you are so stuck in your fear of whatever that you are so closed-up it's worthless to discuss any further.

In German there is a saying "the stick in your arse never becomes a backbone". No idea why I have this conversation with you and think of this saying, must be pure coincidence.. 

 

Edited June 17 by theleelajoker

[zurew]

Having different definitions for terms wouldnt necessarily be an issue (if one can desribe what he/she means by the term) - the real issue is when one equivocates (using the same term in two or more different senses).

[Carl-Richard]

@theleelajoker

Holy you need some religion brutha.

I just think trying to make people to speak the same language, especially when that requires reading into a particular religion, on a forum where people are generally pluralistic in their use of language (or aspiring to be) and don't read particularly into one religion, is a bit futile.

Edited June 17 by Carl-Richard

[theleelajoker]

Let me know when you found that stick 

[James123]

3 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

In the past, I have heard and seen so much definitions, discussions, dilutions, delusions and other BS surrounding this term "Enlightenment" and "Awakening" especially here in this forum.  Enlightenment is this, sainthood is this, awakening is that etc etc.

So when I saw the definition "7 factors of Enlightenment"  given by Siddhartha Gautama I was wondering: Why not use this as a basis for having a discussion about this enlightenement state/process as objectively as possible? According to all sources I know, there seems to be pretty valid consensus that Buddha knew what he was taking about (correct me if you know credible evidence that the Buddha was full of shit)

So when you talk about definitions of being awake and enlightened etc, either a) make transparent that you created your own "elightmentment defintion" or b) let's refer to these 7 factors.

And talking about being "enlightented" or "fully awake" or other similiar claims:  So if you can truthfully confirm to be at least very close to all these factors, we can have a serious discussion.

Disclaimer: 

Of course, this approach is not perfect. E.g. the translations and interpretations vary due to the nature of Pali language of that time and the nature of language itself. For instance, when I read about the meaning of the 7 factors on different languages, the connotations, the meanings change a bit. That's the reason why I did not put a link or list of the 7 factors here - better to do your own research with the source and language of your choice.

Still, even when not perfect, this approach is IMO better then anything else I have seen so far. Happy to hear feedback on how to improve this appraoch. 

Any knowledge, experience, feeling, God etc... is not it.

Forget everything, whatever left it is.

 

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Let me know when you found that stick 

It's like going to the dating section and saying "guys, we need to get down to brass tacks and define what is meant by 'game', 'romance' and 'love': here is this one 7-factor model by this one pickup artist that I want us all to adopt and follow slavishly. It's the best approach obviously, but any feedback on the limitations with this approach?"

Edited June 18 by Carl-Richard

[theleelajoker]

I see you're still looking