What is experience?

[UnbornTao]

19 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Haha yeah, but then we wouldn't have had so much fun playing around with these amazing and fundamental ideas. I feel most alive when I'm in such a conversation and deep contemplation. It's really a pleasure! So thank you again.

Yep, thanks!

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When had "being" entered the conversation? What is that? How does it relate to experience? 

You brought up the perception called “oneself,” and how it isn’t found anywhere. I made a distinction between the self as an activity and what one is, existentially. Do we experience ourselves?

But that was a side point.

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How does activity affect what "I actually am"?

It doesn't. That part relates to the self we take ourselves to be - a result of activity, such as identification, history, programming, education, and so on. It’s in this domain that we recognize ourselves in the conventional sense.

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Isn't that a noise an owl makes? I don't know what that word signifies actually. It seems that it supposes a world where there are "beings" - when you think you are a "self" you imagine other "selves" too.

I told you, presumably an ape like creature on a floating rock out in space. What did you not like about that answer?

The question is meant to be contemplated rather than answered. It’s not an enlightenment question. It's a good start to grasp the entity who is asking - because, again, regardless of belief or hearsay, nearly everyone experiences themselves as someone.

Anyway - experience! Let's leave the self alone for the moment.

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Of course there are accepted intersubjective ideas we all agree on and understand quickly and easily, that's not the point. We are not talking about being pragmatic here, we are trying to dissect phenomenon, and to see how "reality" is being constructed on the go, and how the brain takes that construction to be "real".

I would give you that pencil in the physical realm, but what actually would occur there phenomenologically speaking would be ineffable.

Think of them as two realities happening simultaneously: The physical occurrence of materials and biological creatures, and what those creatures perceive within their brain simulated experiences and the seamless way in which the brain is labeling all the objects and persons within that simulation. Can you see that in the physical there was an actual object, but inside the mind it's an experience shadow with an idea of a "pencil" attached to it?

From a phenomenological perspective there is no "pencil", just experience: colors, sensations of touching, sounds, idea labels, "self" concept, "other" concept - these are the building blocks of experience. 

 

Hey, you're trying to be more ambitious than I am here. The original question was “What is experience?” Out of that, we encounter, basically, thoughts about something and lived experience - dictated, perhaps, by our degree of participation in the encounter. The goal is to clarify that difference, and then more powerfully ask what experience is - especially what direct experience is.

Perhaps a better way to approach this topic is to ask: What in one's experience isn't conceptual? 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@UnbornTao

So my question for you is what is the difference between experience and direct experience? 

Edited June 5 by Anton Rogachevski

[UnbornTao]

45 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@UnbornTao

So my question for you is what is the difference between experience and direct experience? 

"Experience" is what we conventionally regard as coming after perception, though we typically make no distinction between the two - 'I perceive this pencil, therefore I’m experiencing it.' Direct experience, however, would be the apprehension of being prior to perception - getting to the being of the object, whatever that may be. The former is a process, a function of interpretation and meaning-making; the latter, a function of consciousness - an encounter with the thing-itself.

Edited June 5 by UnbornTao

[Anton Rogachevski]

@UnbornTao

Are you directly conscious of that process you are describing, or is that an idea about that process?

[UnbornTao]

58 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@UnbornTao

Are you directly conscious of that process you are describing, or is that an idea about that process?

Of experience? It's an idea. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@UnbornTao

 

18 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

grasp the entity who is asking

One may not, as there's nothing to grasp there. 

 

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I think we've pretty much beaten the poor horse to death. Are you satisfied with the dept of contemplation? Were you aiming at something in particular? Do you think there's more to be found here? 

 

On that note I must recommend for you to read my comprehensive and detailed Non-Duality guide with no bullshit and very detailed explanations. It's quite a read, but I promise it will be worth it. I've recently revised and refreshed it with new insights and made it even more clear and epistemically humble and accurate. I think that it will help shed more light on this very ethereal nuanced subject that also involves experience as it's main substance. I would be very honored to hear your opinion about it.

Cheers

Edited June 6 by Anton Rogachevski

[theleelajoker]

19 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

"Experience" is what we conventionally regard as coming after perception, though we typically make no distinction between the two - 'I perceive this pencil, therefore I’m experiencing it.' Direct experience, however, would be the apprehension of being prior to perception - getting to the being of the object, whatever that may be. The former is a process, a function of interpretation and meaning-making; the latter, a function of consciousness - an encounter with the thing-itself.

In a discourse by Goenka, he refers to Buddhas model of experience respectively functioning of the mind. 

Maybe useful here. I copy paste a chatGPT summary: 

1. Viññāṇa – Consciousness

This is just awareness – knowing that something is happening.

Example: You hear a sound. You’re simply aware that hearing is happening.

2. Saññā – Perception

This part recognizes or labels what you are aware of.

Example: You hear the sound and recognize it as "a dog barking."

3. Vedanā – Sensation

This is the feeling that arises in the body — pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.

Example: The dog’s bark might cause a tension in your chest (an unpleasant sensation).

4. Saṅkhāra – Reaction

This is your automatic mental reaction to the sensation — craving or aversion.

Example: You don’t like the barking (aversion), and your mind reacts with irritation.

How It All Works Together:

• You become aware (viññāṇa)
• You recognize the experience (saññā)
• A bodily sensation arises (vedanā)
• You react to it — wanting or resisting (saṅkhāra)

Edited June 6 by theleelajoker

[UnbornTao]

@theleelajoker Thanks for your input! 

Now, what would you say experience is? We can look into that.

[UnbornTao]

@Anton Rogachevski It’s been a fruitful interchange. Yes, the goal was simply to open up a bit and contemplate experience. Is there more to be found? Yes, the truth - maybe a breakthrough, or an insight into what experience is. But as we can see, that’s not readily available. It's a matter of personal effort. 

I skimmed your article. It looks like it took a lot of work, and it’s a smart analysis. It seems to point toward a more “bare” experience of the present moment, which is probably a move in a positive direction. But of course, reading and logical understanding are only the first step.

Edited June 6 by UnbornTao

[Anton Rogachevski]

@UnbornTao

How do you define "truth", what do you expect it to look like? What do you think a breakthrough is?  Is a detailed description of experience satisfactory for you? In what way would you like to "know" experience? 

Yep it really was a deep contemplation!

The text is meant to be a guided live contemplation and a direct observation of experience as one reads it.  

Thank you for the feedback dear friend,

Cheers

Edited June 7 by Anton Rogachevski

[UnbornTao]

10 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@UnbornTao

How do you define "truth", what do you expect it to look like? What do you think a breakthrough is?  Is a detailed description of experience satisfactory for you? In what way would you like to "know" experience? 

Truth as what is. Like Archimedes and his "eureka" moment - not a conclusion but a personal consciousness of the truth.

10 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Yep it really was a deep contemplation!

The text is meant to be a guided live contemplation and a direct observation of experience as one reads it.  

Thank you for the feedback dear friend,

Cheers

Thank you.

[theleelajoker]

23 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

@theleelajoker Thanks for your input! 

Now, what would you say experience is? We can look into that.

Still a great question that I have a hard time to answer. I'll try, but not very convinced myself. 

• Experience is the realization (awareness) that something is happening, some change in a field holding information
• For us humans, it's happening either through the senses OR through "the mind" (I can hear a sound, or I can "feel" things in my body even if I don't think and don't touch, simply directing attention inside)

[UnbornTao]

30 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Still a great question that I have a hard time to answer. I'll try, but not very convinced myself. 

• Experience is the realization (awareness) that something is happening, some change in a field holding information
• For us humans, it's happening either through the senses OR through "the mind" (I can hear a sound, or I can "feel" things in my body even if I don't think and don't touch, simply directing attention inside)

Don't worry, on this thread it's about the questioning itself. Thanks for your answers! 

Edited June 7 by UnbornTao

[Someone here]

It's beyond me how is this question still unanswered for you . Experience is literally all that there is .it's another word for everything. Then you ask well and what the fuck is that ?

And how the fuck do you expect anyone to know ? It doesn't get more direct than direct.  Nobody knows what everything/Experience is but evryone are directly Experiencing experience/everything all the time and nothing else .

[theleelajoker]

30 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It's beyond me how is this question still unanswered for you . Experience is literally all that there is .it's another word for everything. Then you ask well and what the fuck is that ?

And how the fuck do you expect anyone to know ? It doesn't get more direct than direct.  Nobody knows what everything/Experience is but evryone are directly Experiencing experience/everything all the time and nothing else .

I think different people can have different perspetives

I think exchanging views and asking questions can be fruitful and /or entertaining

 

[Someone here]

@theleelajoker I talked to him .go back few pages and read my interaction with him.

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

It's beyond me how is this question still unanswered for you . Experience is literally all that there is .it's another word for everything. Then you ask well and what the fuck is that ?

And how the fuck do you expect anyone to know ? It doesn't get more direct than direct.  Nobody knows what everything/Experience is but evryone are directly Experiencing experience/everything all the time and nothing else .

Did you make a breakthrough?

Did you have a new experience - see something you hadn't seen before?

Are you personally and undeniably conscious of the nature of experience?

It might be that what you call direct is, in fact, indirect. No answer or conclusion will do it - hence the recurring mu koan joke. What do you expect an answer to give you? 

[Someone here]

@UnbornTao 1-take anything .your hand ..that window ..the moon..the cats ..literally anything. 

2-i call all these things "THIS ".

3-" THIS " is just "THIS". What it is is as it is. Exactly as it appears. Nothing is hidden.a cat is a cat. A dog is a dog .a sun is a sun. An electron is an electron . Experience is Experience.  This is the most basic logical law EVER. It's called law of identity. Which simply says a thing is itself . 

If you can't get this or if you gonna argue or Poke holes in this then even God shiva can't help you .

[UnbornTao]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

@UnbornTao 1-take anything .your hand ..that window ..the moon..the cats ..literally anything. 

2-i call all these things "THIS ".

3-" THIS " is just "THIS". What it is is as it is. Exactly as it appears. Nothing is hidden.a cat is a cat. A dog is a dog .a sun is a sun. An electron is an electron . Experience is Experience.  This is the most basic logical law EVER. It's called law of identity. Which simply says a thing is itself . 

If you can't get this or if you gonna argue or Poke holes in this then even God shiva can't help you .

What are those things before you knew them as such - beyond their relationship to you? What are they prior to logic - even prior to your perception of them? Perhaps there were no "things" there to begin with, and what you're calling this may be nothing but an activity. How could you even begin to approach that, coming from the taken-for-granted world we live in?

Edited June 7 by UnbornTao

[Someone here]

@UnbornTao what you are asking has nothing to do with what I said . There is no such thing as perception or logic which are more fundamental than being/this . I was pointing 👉 to direct being which is not a process that happens through perception or time .you can't have logic or perception or time without being. But you can have being without these things (like in deep sleep).