Search the Community

Allow me some further musings on the topic. In stage 3 Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual), Nonduality starts showing up. But Nonduality is not Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, because one can be in nondual Unity and still think that one is an "enlightened person", or any other crappy concept or self-identity for that matter. The ripening of Nonduality goes from stage 3 Yoga of One Taste to stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. Nonmeditation, because the meditation has become so automized that the need for any separate-self agency feeling doing anything is no longer necessary and is discarded and also cut off. And then one is accident-prone to the possible accident of Enlightenment, Impersonal Infinite Consciousness realizing itself. At that stage, doing anything is just creating another cloud hiding the sun of ones true being, because doing anything would be another thougt/feeling-movement in Infinite Consciousness/Mind/Reality. And psychedelics are very nice for helping the whole process, and for exploring the Multiverse and other interesting stuff. But for transcending the last subtle separate-self-identity-arisings (subtle separate-self thoughts and feelings), and cutting off the sometimes arisings-non-bliss-feeling-bad-arisings (in other words: suffering) that are a part of the separate-self-package, I have yet to see one case (just a single one would be very interesting) where that has been done mainly on a stable basis/outcome in daily life with only psychedelics. That can be very well had with meditation practice. Meditation: Actually, from all I have seen, getting rid of all the clouds of the separate-self takes a long time in certain states (boundless, timeless infinite consciousness, nondual and the separate-self already nothing but a feeling of "individuality", some "nothing" watching the nondual totality), 100s of hours. Maybe 1000s. For most practitioners at least, including yours truly. On the stage 3 and 4 of the stages of Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation alone (and these are not boring or annoying sitting meditation hours by then, but blissful and wonderful hours in daily life in something called Post-Samadhi-Meditation (or off the pillow meditation) in the book). And in that 100s or 1000s of hours subtle separtate-self identities/arisings get spotted, seen (subject->object), transcended and cut off. And I can assure you, oh boy, these are sometimes really sneaky and subtle. When all of that is transcended, the sudden Deep Identity Shift/Understanding can happen. "Yes, there is nothing else than THAT, and "my" essence is that, and what "I" thought I was was just a movement/arising of thoughts/feelings/centers within THAT. My True Being is all of Reality. But nothing specific. No separate-anything. The whole enchilada without center and core". But its not a elaborated thinking. It is Infinite Consciousness UNDERSTANDING/REALIZING itself, and there is nothing else than THAT, never possibly could be. The understanding in thought-form gets elaborated LATER, after Infinite Consciousness/Reality has understood itself, the nature of the world and its own nature (nondual). Psychedelics: bring a lot and strong forms of the Awakened States (nondual, infinite, mere appearance, and a lot more). States that one would only get by meditation if already very empty, or the separate-self-arising (thought/feeling)flow already cut a lot. So the states are very awake/nondual/infinite, but the separate-self-arisings is still colouring the experience. Although they can also be very subtle/empty at that state. And that is my little theory that explains all phenomena and examples I have seen so far: There is just not enough time and deeply cut-off/transcended separate-self-arisings in psychedelic states to cause that deep Identity-Level Shift of Full Enlightenment. And often, and maybe even much more problematic than the point just mentioned, there is a lot of nonduality/Unity in psychedelic states but a lot of separate-self-feelings/identites/... still left. Not a pure and impersonal Nonduality/Unity, but rather a Unity loaded with not-so-impersonal-stuff. And that doesn't fully count as these 100s or 1000s hours mentioned above, because they may be not so flashy consciousness/awakened, but are already quite nondual/Unity and very very impersonal/empty/nearly-no-separate-self still left. Only last fragments, being dissolved as time goes on. Short form: Meditation: Unity/Nonduality/Awakened States only when very large parts of separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) are already gone/transcended Psychedelics: Lots of Unity/Nondual/Awakened States EVEN with separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) in large parts not seen trough, even with the help of the psychedelic. Full Enlightenment: And for the sudden Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment the separate-self-arisings/thoughts/feelings need to be ALL seen through/Transcended/cut off (which at the same time is also a huge boost of Nonduality/Awakenings, making the whole field an infinite nondual groundless mere appearance field hovering within ones timeless true always here Being, and Infinite Awareness Space with separate-self-center/Individuality fully gone. Just THIS). In Full Enlightenment, there is no agent left that is still believed, no center. So one IS Reality itself. And literally everything that could ever appear is a manifested/imagined arising/appearance, imagined by "the" Infinite Mind/Consciousness. And that "Mind", or Reality, dreams and is deluded until "It" realized there is only itself, watching itself, fooling and believing itself in endless appearances. If there is "someone", or arisings of a "you" that thinks "it" is enlightened: Welcome, that is another illusion-layer (as Leo correctly points out). It is maybe an Enlightenment (Nondual Unity with the Infinite Void), but not Full Enlightenment. And for the impersonal aspect: Sounds horrible, in practice its wonderful: One is this life "oneself", next life maybe life something else completely: Different personality, different body, Human, Alien, whatever. Impersonal Consciousness open up exactly that. Like dreaming being someone/something else at night. But the price of transcending this specific bodymind has to be paid. And since its only an illusion, only has some fear-defense-mechanism BEFORE the Gateless Gate of waking up to ones True Identity, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, or Reality itself. Water by the River

I agree that some Awakenings can't be had without psychedelics. And that what you call Alien Consciousness is for sure cutting edge. And I do consider you a pioneer, and have read so far most of what you wrote, and watched most of your videos. "Alien Consciousness is completely beyond everything those Buddhists understand or have ever achieved." That I don't know, since I don't know what every Buddhist has achieved. But it is very well possible what you write, since they didn't have 5-MeO and other stuff. They had psychedelics [ Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana ], but not all what is available now, and not pure. But some exploration they did: https://www.psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz , Yet, I consider Full Enlightenment becoming that Ultimate Reality as a Deep Identity level shift, with no more filters of the separate-self not seen through or covering that Realization/Deep Identity Level shift, no more filter on any of these Awakenings/Enlightenments. True Self, because every being is that already, with some illusion-clouds on top. Not projecting Absolute Reality on separate-self remains, but pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. And since that brings bliss and liberation in daily life. I consider it highly valueable. Summum Bonum [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summum_bonum ] So lets continue exploring and awakening to ever higher, larger and more encompassing [Alien] perspectives in Indras Net of Reality, since that is one of the reasons why we are, and one of the reasons God is playing that game/Lila. I just propose doing that from a consideration of the basis of the Summum Bonum mentioned above. Considering that suffering = continued search for further experiences/understandings/realization and end of suffering = resting in ones Deep True Identity as Reality itself, there is a "little" pointer given by Reality via suffering on that issue. Specifically: Placing the importance/value of Alien Consciousness on the same level as striving for Full Enlightenment, i feel fine with that. As long as the Alien Consciousness doesn't drag home some less-than-healthy consequences. Why? Because the paths for both goals go towards more Consciousness, not less. They run parallel, or at least normally not opposed if one doesn't get lost in these Alien Awakenings. Which probably can be avoided. Placing anything higher as the striving for Full Enlightenment is in my perspective choosing suffering, which is not a permanently sustainable strategy. That is the only reason why I am writing all of this. Besides that, I am a big fan Leo! The world needs more people like you. The more pioneers we have, the faster the Wild West is explored. And the faster we know where the rattlesnakes are hiding, which branch-off of the path leads to Death Valles and which leads to California. Water by the River

Let me try to answer your questions as brief as possible. That is challenging, because the Mahamudra system is technically very complex with many stages. I like to compare Zen/Theravada to cutting a tree with an axe, while Mahamudra is something like a forest harvester: The axe was available already in stone-age and worked, robust and slow. The forest harvester needs precise handling and thorough understanding & training, but is waaay faster. Anyway, lets try the impossible at least roughly. Here is my main thread of the explanation on Mahamudra in the Pointing out the Great Way style (Daniel Brown, 600 page book, around 200-300 pages on the juicy main-practice-stages of Mahamudra). To give you an idea/feeling (not really possible to do in brief, but I try): The description of two main steps: Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual) Lets start with Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition It is a "High-Speed-Search-Task into Nature of thoughts, into the "Unfindability/Emptiness" of thoughts. They evaporate when looking into their nature. The nature of every emerging thought/concept, emerging out of Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality): And the nature of thoughts is its unfindability: Thoughts have no location, they are "made"/essence out of Infinite Consciousness. Thoughts dissolve when looking into their nature (Aware Empty Infinite Consciousness). One can never "find" a thought. They dissolve when looking into their essence. They move within onself, and dissolve when looking into them And that process/phenomenon is used. and with that cutting off (=Trekchö), since its nature is empty Infinite Consciousness/Suchness. Consciousness literally stops the thought then. At one point when one is fast enough, one sees the order of emergence IN the Infinite Mind is Understanding or just some other cause Thought emergence (fully formed, fully emerging in mili-seconds, but not yet "elaborated-out" over several seconds) being elaborated out over a part of a second to several seconds) And step 3 doesn't happen then. It is cut off. THAT is was brings Awakened States (nondual, boundless, basically if done fast enough. The thought "capsules" start emerging faster and faster then, 10-20 thoughts capsules per second+, and at some point Awareness stays "on top" of even that. That is where the magic starts (Nonduality begins developing, and the mindstream can get silent, bliss starts flowing. A very discrete and "hard" psychological process). And that happens in the beginning phases still on the pillow, but can also happen very much in daily life when intensive thought activity is not necessary. Later, it becomes also possible with sophisticated intellectual/creative thinking, when Awareness has become strong enough to stay lucid THROUGH the thought-elaboration. No longer hypnotized, the creative/intellectual happening within oneself on auto-pilot. Awakened Awareness and its Infinite Intelligence tends to take over, the separate-self/ego gets out of the way. That makes it also much more effective, since the ego/separte-self tended to act as a filter. From this Awakenened Awareness all intelligence and creativity comes from anyway, that is why creativity is so highly valued and pleasurable. This Awakened Awareness is the source of bliss anyway.... So, then the next step described in this post (Stage 2, see link above, jumped due to the specific question of Leo for "daily" practice: Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste. One Taste = Nondual boundless consciousness. Getting that into daily life. When enough proficiency of creating lucid states with this High-Speed-Cutoff is generated, the Awareness/Lucidity doesn't get lost when thinking. It stays. And with it the Awakened States. And then daily life starts getting nondual, especially if no academic thinking is necessary (still large parts of the day). With academic style thinking/creative thinking, it takes more Lucidity/Training, but is doable. 2nd TOPIC OF THIS POST: God-Realization in your words, or "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." And this (Yoga of One Taste) brings us then to the "base camp of Full Enlightenment", the "jumping platform" where Full Enlightenment can happen (some of which main aspects you refer to with God Realization): Stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. I have written elsewhere about it, see link above. The Nondual Stages of Yoga of One Taste would get confirmed in other traditions (Zen for example) as Enlightenment/Satori/Kensho. But not Great/Full Enlightenment, or God-Realization in your wording. That is an "accident", for which Stage 3&4 make accident-prone. I agree with you that Emptiness/Void is neither God Realization nor Full Enlightenment, where also that "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality" is realized. I am starting more to understand why you emphasize that in your language/system of experience, and I agree on the importance of it. In Zen, there is a differentiation between just shallower Enlightenments (Kenshos, Satoris) into the empty nature of all appearance, or into emptiness. The separte-self can still be very alive then. The Full Enlightenment on the other side, the total dissolution of the separate-self, leaves one with exactly that realization: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." Although there is no more you, nor God, but Reality itself becoming consciousness OF itself IMAGINING itself as all there ever could be. This Enlightenment is probably between 10-50 less common than the real thing of Full Enlightenment. Probably that is why you are so annoyed with the large majority of Buddhist Enlightenments (either contemporarily claimed or described in literature). Let me give you four examples of that differentiation (I could give many more, but that would blast the post. Ok, I admit, its already blasted and way too long... forgive me). 1) Huang Po https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun "One Mind Huángbò's teaching centered on the concept of “mind” (Chinese: hsin), a central issue for Buddhism in China for the previous two centuries or more. He taught that mind cannot be sought by the mind. One of his most important sayings was “mind is the Buddha”. He said: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists [red by me]. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings.[8] He also said: To awaken suddenly to the fact that your own Mind is the Buddha [Nothing exists beside IT=God=Reality=True You], that there is nothing to be attained or a single action to be performed – this is the Supreme Way.[9]" 2) Yogachara school https://integrallife.com/toward-fourth-turning-buddhism/ "The very notion of the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form opened the door, as we briefly mentioned, to other even “stronger” versions of nonduality or (metaphoric!) Wholeness, one of the most prominent being the Yogachara, introduced by the half‑brothers Asanga (more of a brilliant innovator) and Vasubandhu (more of an acute synthesizer). Another name for their school—Vijnaptimatra—is usually translated as “Mind-only” or “Representation-only.” The point here is that the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form allowed some philosopher-sages to come up with other terms for the “Form” that was seamlessly conjoined with ultimate Emptiness or Shunyata, one of them being “Mind” itself. The idea was that “Mind” itself was the same as Emptiness—the Yogachara philosophers were adamant that they were talking about the same “unqualifiable” Emptiness that Nagarjuna was, but by also referring to it as “Mind” they were giving (some would say metaphorically, some would say absolutely) a type of compass that would help relate ultimate Emptiness to an everyday reality everybody was aware of (such as, namely, the Mind). The Zen saying, “The everyday mind, just that is the Tao (ultimate Truth)” is a good example of this type of Yogachara thinking. And it showed clearly how one could “bring everything to the path,” starting with your own, simple, everyday awareness. This opened so many other doors—especially Tantra and Vajrayana—that it is referred to as “The Third Turning of the Wheel of Dharma.” Buddhism has philosophically run a long way. Hinayana didn't even have the full Nondual Realization of Absolute Reality, Nagarjuna made Madyamaka (nothing can be said about Ultimate Reality). And where did it end? The philosophy all which pretty all sophisticated Tantric Buddhism system rely on? MIND-ONLY, Yogachara. We need to at least differentiate the 2500 year system of Buddhism into these development steps. If not, we are fighting with a "fossil-philosophy"... 3) The Supreme Source, one of the main texts of Dzogchen (quite close to the Mahamudra above, Brown uses Dzogchen and Mahamudra elements together): on which breathtaking beautiful absolute perpective you agreed: There is gold in Buddhism, Full Enlightenment, God Realization. And tools to make it stable in daily life. The later systems of Tantric Buddhism, but also Mahayana, have at their philosophic core Yogachara or Madhyamaka (I have written on that elsewhere). These two qualifications of Ultimate Reality are in line with what you call God Realization. 4) In Zen 3 pillars of Zen, Kapleau: Some quotes from that book: "ROSHI: With a first enlightenment the realization of oneness is usually shallow. Yet if one has genuinely perceived, even though dimly, and continues to practice devotedly for five or ten more years, this inner vision will expand in depth and magnitude as one’s character acquires flexibility and purity." The story of Bassui: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." "This way is no other than the realization of your own Mind. Now what is this Mind? It is the true nature of all sentient beings, that which existed before our parents were born and hence before our own birth, and which presently exists, unchangeable and eternal. So it is called one’s Face before one’s parents were born. This Mind is intrinsically pure. When we are born it is not newly created, and when we die it does not perish. It has no distinction of male or female, nor has it any coloration of good or bad. It cannot be compared with anything, so it is called Buddha-nature. Yet countless thoughts issue from this Selfnature as waves arise in the ocean or as images are reflected in a mirror. To realize your own Mind you must first of all look into the source from which thoughts flow And: Realization Emptiness, or Void, IS NOT YET FULL ENLIGHTENMENT: "In this propitious state deepen and deepen the yearning, tirelessly, to the extreme. When the profound questioning penetrates to the very bottom, and that bottom is broken open, not the slightest doubt will remain that your own Mind is itself Buddha, the Void-universe. There will then be no anxiety about life or death, no truth to search for. In a dream you may stray and lose your way home. You ask someone to show you how to return or you pray to God or Buddhas to help you, but still you can’t get home. Once you rouse yourself from your dream-state, however, you find that you are in your own bed and realize that the only way you could have gotten home was to awaken yourself. This [kind of spiritual awakening] is called “return to the origin” or “rebirth in paradise.” It is the kind of inner realization that can be achieved with some training. Virtually all who like zazen and make an effort in practice, be they laypeople or monks, can experience to this degree. But even such [partial] awakening cannot be attained except through the practice of zazen. You would be making a serious error, however, were you to assume that this was true enlightenment in which there is no doubt about the nature of reality. You would be like one who having found copper gives up the desire for gold." Or: Not yet Full Enlightenment-Realization. "But even now repeatedly cast off what has been realized, turning back to the subject that realizes, that is, to the root bottom, and resolutely go on. Your Self-nature will then grow brighter and more transparent as your delusive feelings perish, like a gem gaining luster under repeated polishing, until at last it positively illumines the entire universe [infinite nondual mere appearance boundlessness of ones nondual limitless being then]." "You must understand that anything appearing in your consciousness or seen by your eyes is an illusion [imagined], of no enduring reality. Hence you should neither fear nor be fascinated by such phenomena. If you keep your mind as empty as space, unstained by extraneous matters, no evil spirits can disturb you even on your deathbed. While engaged in zazen, however, keep none of this counsel in mind. You must only become the question “What is this Mind?” or “What is it that hears these sounds?” When you realize this Mind you will know that it is the very source of all Buddhas and sentient beings. And that ends in Full Enlightenment: "keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present [they all have been expressions of this Infinite Mind of yours, of the only Reality there is or could be, dreaming up all these worlds]." There is nothing else than: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." And that becomes stable in daily life when there is no longer a separate-self, but only Reality. God. True Nature. Whatever one wants to call "It" then... And that Ultimate Reality is Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. "It" is both nothing/impersonal, but also everything there could be imagined. It is Reality itself. The True Core of each being. As long as something of a remaining separate-self projected on it, its not stable in daily life. The remains of that separate-self will also "colour" all higher insights/realizations. Bliss doesn't flow yet full time, so the suffering will make the being continue and refine anything that is not conforming to this Ultimate Reality, ones True being. Or according to Huang Po, The One [Infinite] Mind that dreams or imagines it all up all Reality. Water by the River PS: Ok, yours truly confesses: short is it not, the post.... But please don't hit me too hard, took some time to write, and I got plenty of other things to do also.

It's fantastic, you've been too lazy to shoot yourself in the foot while others spend their lives with "friends" who don't like them and are mean to them, others who spend their life with a partner who is with them because he hasn't found anything better and are constantly cuckolded and despised, others who spend their life in a job they don't really like for safety etc etc. You have more effective pellets. You can't fail because there's nowhere to go, of course we can declare that being unhappy/unfulfilled is a failure but you know very well that it is not in this semantics that we invoke the notion success/failure divide. You're just afraid of letting your libido swing into its "schizoid", rebellious position. What you say in Newspeak is "Hey, I'm supposed to have a shitty life by the pressure of a nebula of injunctions registered in my subconscious, but you know what I don't/no longer have the energy because about my traumas and other stuff! Tell me how to accept having "failed" and have the energy again to pursue a shitty life to cure my ego". Note how impersonal it sounds, both in substance and in form. Ps : I'm not trying to be conscending, it's just my way of expressing myself and loving, in case it's not clear. Not matter.

Hey @Leo Gura, while @Water by the River has gone to extensive length in several posts to explain and clarify his position on what exactly Absolute Consciousness is from his pov, I see you either repeatedly refuse his take on the Absolute, or you say in general that nobody knows what Consciousness really is. Could you then please clarify and precicely state for all of us what Consciousness fundamentally is from your perspective and where this differs from saying that in full enlightenment one moves permanently from being a body/mind in an objective world to being impersonal, centerless, empty, boundless eternal infinite consciousness floating nowhere, nowhen, nohow, with all traces of seperate self arisings distinguished, with all distinctions/differences collapsed until there is only life left onto itself. In regards to the above statement, if you say to become 'more conscious', do you mean you become conscious of more/other fundamental aspects of God (like empty, eternal, boundless, centreless etc.), or do you mean with 'more conscious' that you become conscious of the exact workings/mechanics of reality itself, like for example becoming conscious how exactly you create/will the entire perceptual field into existence?

Yes. Javfly33, every being ends up with that insight after having been beaten enough by INFINITELY large and Infinitely Intelligent Reality. Every being suffers as long as all these mindsets of doing something else than trying to finding permanent bliss persist. And even in doing or prefering something else they just do something that brings bliss or peace or good emotions, even when searching ever new Awakenings n+1, or getting maximum conscious, whatever that means in the individual case). So, its just the question of a) learning by suffering by trying the 1000+1 games separate-selfs play, and seeing that they all fail in bringing permanent happiness. Takes a longer time, but is the nature of this game/lila/universe and its Raison d'Être (the Lila-Show) or b) learning by insight and going straight to the finish line, or back home to ones True Being: Full Enlightenment. The Deep Identity Shift to being the Infinite Reality itself, the one without a second, or Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. All I am trying to do is highlighting this little dynamic how the Absolute "throws" itself out into manifestation, form, the many, separate-self, and PULLS itself back home either by suffering or insight. And valueing a) higher as b), or a) being somehow spiritual superior to b). In a certain way, I am spoiling the game/Lila of a). But just look at the reactions, I am very sure I won't spoil it for too many... Water by the River

But if one can access the Absolute at will (the visual field as boundless timeless infinite nondual mere appearance), switch off the self-contraction/separate-self (and its suffering included) at will if it dares to raise its ugly head again, and STAY in that Ultimate Impersonal Reality... that says something about (to use your words) how conscious "one" is. Well, you can turn it around it all the ways you want. The fact that Ultimate Reality is not stable accessible and suffering continues is the hallmark of the psychedelic-afficionados, from all I have seen so far. How come Infinitely intelligent Reality doesn't let the psychedelic afficionado rest blissfully in True Nature? Why does suffering not stop in that case? Because Infinitely Intelligent Ultimate Reality doesn't want that (nor could it, even if "it" wanted) a not fully transcended ego/separate-self stays there blissed out and proclaims "that is the highest". IT is IMPERSONAL Infinite Consciousness. With Impersonal in bold letters. And until that is delivered by fully transcending and killing the separate-self-arisings in normal life, there is practice of transcedence and "dying to the lower identites" to be done. The suffering is what pulls a separate-self back to its True Nature, Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or Reality itself (including the manifest show in a nondual way). Honestly, if there ever has been one big warning sign dangling on top of all of that proclaimed "highest Awakeninsg n+1", it is what described in the paragraph above. Suffering continues. And Reality will make you suffer until you get that. Cruel game? Not really, no one gets left behind halfway up the mountain, in the suffering of the claws of the self-contraction of the separate-self, until that is fully transcended and gone. And going exploring the Multiverse in ever "higher" Awakenings ."Higher" into what? The Absolute can not be higher or lower, only form/manifestation/appearance/arisings WITHIN IT. So its higher Awakenings into ever more relative appearing arisings, not the Absolute. And that will just prolong that suffering. Please prove me wrong. If you don't shut down the show here, we all are in the prime seats to watch it. Anyway, bon voyage! Water by the River

Then let me have the cases which you consider fully enlightened that don't align. I will try to align them and their pointers if the pointers are about the Absolute, and the examples know what they are talking about. "Rupert Spira says that solpsism is madness. Ramana Maharshi says there are no others. Rupert Spira says consciousness is love, Ralston says love is just an emotion. " I could align that. All 4 cases know what they are talking about. Spira: Solipsism from the perspective of an unenlightened separate self is madness. From the unenlighened mindstream Solipsism is just not true, because the "I" refered to is not the Absolute, or Impersonal Infintie Consciousness, Reality itself. Ramana: From the Absolute perspective there are no others. But that needs Enlightenment, and a deep identity shift towards Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, Reality itself. If one is then inclined to talk fully from the Absolute Side of the street: No problem. Spira: Consciousness is love: Ones True Nature, Impersonal Infinite Consciousness opens the mindstream towards love and bliss, or loving all that is and arises. Very clear once enlightened. Ralston: Love an emotion in the meaning that some mindstreams show a little bit of it sometimes, others more often, the permanently enlightened mindstream needs that as basis to stay enlightened/awakened, but also produces that love as result of staying in ones nature on a consistent basis. It is a perspective on love as state that can dominate a mindstream or not. Water by the River

Yes. All there is is Suchness, or Consciousness. Nondual. "IT" is also the only consciousness "thing" that can perceive anything. Since there is only "itself" (all appearances, every world/dimension), It can only perceive "itself". Normally as an "other", not nondual. But that also means, since "it" is the only consciousness "thing" there is: "It" can only understand itself. There is nothing else. "Enlightenment is an accident. Practice makes accident prone.": We can call that "accident" of Enlightenment whatever we want: IT/Absolute is also infinitely intelligent, and an infinite network of perspectives/holons within Indras Net has to align/"approve"/whatever before ones perspective (the sentient being/you) understands/gets what "It" is ("Full Enlightenment"). There is nothing to be done at THAT point of practice, because any doing would be an arising/movement of thoughts/intentions in consciousness. An a movement of thought/ego is FORM, an appearance, and arising, starting-moving-ending IN THAT/Consciousness/Reality/You. So that is not "It". At the right state, it can happen. That state needs to be cultivated normally over a longtime (practice makes accident-prone). From (for example a description from the Mahamudra-system, but that step-logic of practice is in most systems): Yoga of One Taste (=already nondual) cultivating that state in which the accident can happen, to Yoga of Nonmeditation, in which all activity is stopped, and the meditation does itself, keeping the field nondual, boundless, timeless, mere appearance. In that state the reckognition can happen. When God/The Absolute/The Totality of Indras Net "aligns" and "says yes", "you" get enlightened (the accident). At that point it is grace, Karma, brain chemistry, an act of all of Reality/the Universe/whatever one wants to call it. God/Being/Reality suddenly understanding itself in THAT perspective that is your mindstream of this life. And its impersonal, its not what you think what you are, but what you really are. And the fact that its impersonal is not bad at all... And if Absolute Reality "says": No. Then not today darling... Please more preparation for the "accident". Then, not today darling... Even with DMT. Ok, probably I have confused pretty much everybody with the twisted musings above, but maybe it is useful for some. Water by the River

Uuum, lets assume Reality is infinite intelligent. Meaning Impersonal Infinite Consciousness manifests an Intelligence that holds Indras Net in itself, infinitely intelligent. And lets assume that: “Enlightenment is an accident. But we can make ourselves more accident prone.” So Reality wants a certain mindstream/states(like boundless timeless infinite mere appearance infinite consciousness)/not-too-unloving-personality/maybe certain other stuff also... : The making oneself accident prone. And then the accident can happen. Its not for the separate-self to decide when precisely that happens. Like I wrote before, there are self-guarding mechanisms of Reality. Reality apparently doesn't want too many enlightened uncompassionate egotists basking 24/7 in the bliss of their true nature. And True Nature = bliss = shutting off the self-contraction in ones head, making the whole field groundless mere appearance floating in infinity, and infinite release a the snap of ones finger. That is just how it is, although many apparently don't like to hear it. Water by the River

Yes. Someone once said (don't know who): “Enlightenment is an accident. But we can make ourselves more accident prone.” That is for example the essence of going from One Taste Yoga of Mahamudra (making the mindstream confirm (or compatible) to the True State of things, like infinite, empty or non-personal, non-conceptual, nondual, boundless, timeless) to Yoga of Nonmeditation of Mahamudra (where one stops doing anything, since "anyone" doing something is an arising in the mindstream covering Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness. And the insight of what one really is, and what reality is, is Enlightenment. Can't be forced, happens by itself when the conditions are exactly right. Yes, its tricky. But has a structure to it. But stopping doing anything BEFORE the mindstream conforms to a structure/state where Enlightenment can happen, one can do "nothing" for a long time and the accident/Enlighenment wont happen. Basically going fully Tony Parson. Water by the River

The bubble doesn't even exist. There is no thing, B. Ego may be eternal for the sake of argument, but only in terms of the manner in which one might use the the word "eternal" relative to the context of the discussion. You are discussing something in terms of philosophic distinctions, B. This is not philosophy. I save the term "eternal", for the realm of creation, karma, the micro and macrocosmic elements relative to incrementality, time and evolutionary process, so we are on the same page pertaining to an intrinsic logic limited to this discussion, but, as others are prone to do, you are not alone in limiting yourself to rationalizing the total reality in terms of an either/or ratio-syncretic paradigm. They are the same at the same time in terms of reality (not to mean the Absolute), but in terms of creation, their exclusivity is always dependent on the quality of refined awareness potential practice by the individual; ie, the continuum of individualized attention ranging from karmically-bound to karmic-free individuals. [This is a misnomer because one's very existence is karmic, but for those whose subtle consciousness of psychological momentum preventing them from following karmic patterning as well as perpetuating it in terms of themselves and/or others can be said to exist by a karma-free state of actualization.] If one is limited by psychological relativity, one perpetuates karma based on selfish (personal) modalities. Those who see potential have already entered into the inconceivable, so their modality is transcendental; independent of relativity without harming the creative. This is the meaning of the statement, "Buddhas don't follow precepts, nor do they break precepts." I can't say anything I want in terms of my distinctions based on experience, but you certainly can. I won't be able to entertain your discussion in a philosophical context though, because what I know isn't philosophy. I have posted much in the way of threads over the years relative to the absolute fact of meaninglessness— both in terms of the conditional as well as the absolute. As for reality (suchness in buddhist terms), reality DOES NOT mean anything. I don't know if that would posit the same distinction as meaningless for your purposes, though. Let me address the quote you have provided: The first sentence distinguishes the absolute from the relative (the content of the second sentence). A lazy scholar might mistake the first and second parts of sentence 1 as a statement based on duality, in terms of the absolute (nothing to know) and its [mistaken] relative aspect represented as [no] thing. This would make the absolute dependent on the created, and such is not the case; neither in terms of the construct of the sentence nor by the facts of reality borne by those (enlightening beings) who have seen their nature (enlightening being~ or nonbeing as is the case in fact). So the first sentence as a whole is shorthand for true reality, not just the absolute. Though impersonal knowledge is immediate, there is nothing to know; there is no thing; there is no knower, thinker or liver of life, even in terms of the second sentence: "…ego exists in a void." The nonpsychological knowledge entering into inconceivable knowing is itself a nonoriginated selfless distinction resonating the boundless quality of awake. Beyond any sense of inside or outside, near or far, we can refer to this miracle as unified awareness. Awareness is selfless, nonoriginated, integral Mind alone. There is no way to imply its source. In terms of the nature of human existence and its innate inconceivable potential, just this is the limit of the limitless. There is always that which is beyond our extreme extension of spiritual (nonpsychological) potential. That ego does exist by virtue of Mind alone is relative to creation; whereas no-thing "exists" relative to nonorigination. Nonorigination is not relative to creation. Dogen says, "Wood does not turn into ashes. Ashes do not come from wood." Obviously, as I have said, this is not a philosophical discussion. Since you have yet to see your nature, there is no way for you to know, to see, or to somehow fathom that ego, as such, IS a bubble, and that it does, in fact, exist in a void. So I guess I have to inform you that your statement and the assumption it is based on is erroneous. Even if I now seem to contradict the opening line I wrote in this post, where I wrote: "The bubble doesn't even exist." There is no thing, yet in terms of the void, the empty field's venue staging the bubble's day in the (dim) sun is absolutely as plain as day. In fact, I might add that the "dark" is more brilliant than the "light", in terms of the particular nature of its congealed aspect. Taoism poetically describes such phenomena with the phrase "…in the dark vastness of the void, out of the dimness, a point of illumination, an auspicious object hovering in stillness…" It is also referred to as "liquid pearl", and "the subsuming swirl" [mine-heehee!!]. This is the impersonal aspect of the "all at once" depicted in the Tai Chi symbol, in terms of the eternal truth of the incremental. Those who see their nature can see that it's the totality of "the eternal bubble" you speak of, and yet it does, in fact, exist, in the void. But it cannot exist in terms of itself (yet another sublime parallel to ego). The void doesn't exist, yet in the context of universal mystical visionary experience, the bubble is only a sub-wonder to behold even in its practical aspect as "space-saver." The bubble is, in actuality, the objectification of potential. Only those who see potential can see this in everyday ordinary situations. Real people don't see "things", they see potential. So that's what they deal with, and that's why their actions aren't relative to karma. Only the created is relative and subject to karmic perpetuation (bondage). Those who see nonorigination as potential deal with its essence directly without intermediary and do not accrue that which is relative, in terms of the primal organization. Only nonorigination transcends the primal organization of the creative, psychological processes and time, so it is a unique vessel of unified potential, ever poised to "pass through" the boundary of creative duality, in terms of subtle spiritual adaption based on realization of potential. Those who do so are said to partake of the Supreme Vehicle of buddhas and all prior illuminates, as their entry into the inconceivable is the realization of suchness, neither ordinary nor holy. What is truly wonderful is the knowledge exquisitely exposed as reality on the brink of going into action in perpetuity. Having never moved, such experience is the source of the statement, "Awareness has never moved." In the best, highest meaning of the word, ego should be such a "space-saver" in terms of one's everyday ordinary functionality. For enlightening beings who are fully adept at impersonally adapting enlightenment to conditions without relying on thier own power (by virtue of seeing potential), such is already the case. Someday, you may be able to look forward to the functionality of enlightening activity, in the midst of delusion, by virtue of the delusional, because such activity is based on, and perpetually refreshed by, the incipient upwelling of naturally selfless reality, neither absolute nor conditional. ed note: typo 4th paragraph; add "(yet another sublime parallel to ego)", insert "objectification" and remove "personification" in paragraph 14; split paragraph 14/15

What‘s al-lad? They usually do for me on normal doses but my mind on them is often all over the place often impersonal horrors with luck they can resolve something , it‘s hard to focus on feelings etx

"You" can not be gaslit when having realizing Absolute Truth, or what You really are. To even consider that one can be gaslit on Absolute Truth is a kind of joke. Gaslit by "whom"? Gaslit on "what"? And "who" can be gaslit? When you really get enlightened, and know who you are, you can't doubt that. Until then: Better keep doubting each and any arising in your mindstream, and burn it in the fire of your primordial Impersonal Awareness/Emptiness/Being... Realize what you really are, become Reality itself, and "you" will get the joke. And "you" don't need inner authority, you just need to realize what You are. And then one can be meek&compassionate&loving all day long, and not get gaslit in any way.... Of course, if one still feels gaslit by "external" arisings (or "other" opinions arising in ones perspective) on ones "Awakenings", one has to put ones foot down. Not that the Realization of timeless eternal Absolute Truth suddenly stops, or gets doubted by "others" or "oneself"... As long as there is a "you" that can be led astray.... well, gotta stop the gaslit! Water by the River PS: Real Awakening is not a decission. It is a realization beyond any possible doubt. Doubt arises in IT.

That running around in a wheel is exploring the lower subtle/higher subtle and lower causal areas of manifestation (if one uses Ken Wilber system). It is exploring appearance, or illusion, in the higher levels of manifestation. Beyond ever new Awakenings (the wheel above) there is a final realization into the Nature of Oneself and Reality, as changeless Infinite Impersonal Eternal Reality, which brings the search to a rest, and peace to the seeker (which is gone then, replaced by the Totality which one really is). And that Enlightenment can not be understood (and why it is final) until having had it, and it can not be anticipated/imagined while the separate self has not fully died. If one could imagine or anticipate it, it would have already happened. With Enlightenment, there is an endpoint on the path. Realizing ones True Nature. Totality replacing the separate self, and bliss replacing suffering and misery. If one denies the possibility of Enlightenment, the Awakenings never stop, because Reality is contains Infinity, with an Infinity of Awakenings to explore. Isn't that obvious? One never arrives, is never done. And never done suffering. The wheel above. Suffering will tell the nature of that path. Matthew 7:15-20 Water by the River

I basically wrote the same here: in the post below. Linking to the same questions from months ago. No real answer also, besides some anecdotes abouts rats and icepicks. @Moksha, apparently (and actually) there is no counter-argument remaining concerning what you wrote. Basically, it boils down to the these two aspects: 1) Full Enlightenment = all is illusion, imagination and dream, n+1 (my post quoted above). The realization (all is illusion&dream&imagined) as such apparently is still considered as valid, although that is denied when claimed by Buddhist or "Nonduals" or whatevers, which are supposedly all still dreaming. Without giving any reasons for that, and which is contrary to your experience, and that of countless others having realized their True Nature. 2) Suffering continues until stable establishment of staying permanently in ones True Identity of being Infinite Impersonal Reality/Consciousness (or stable Full Enlightenment), and having the Illusion arising within Oneself. Which requires the complete transcendence/death of any separate-self identity. Apparently a hefty price to be paid. Maybe to hefty for some, surrendering all ones attachments and preferences. All would be so nice and well and lovely, but all these Buddhist rats and other horrible stuff manifesting as illusion in ones dream , apparently still with the potential to spoil the beauty of Absolute Reality Awakening. For me, it looks a bit like some like chasing ones own tail. And being a little bit less than happy if somebody points out that the tail & everything else IS already Ones True Being, and rather prefers to not join the chasing & delighting in the chase. To each his own & Caveat Emptor. Selling Water by the River

For some artwork on the wonder and holiness of Intersubjectivity just google Alex Grey. This whole Solipsism ideology isn't really sexy. Communion, Intersubjectivity and love are such an essential part of the Kosmos. Why did the whole thing get manifested if not for that? Solipsism is true on the level of Pure Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness. Before reaching that, rather not... So no need to talk about it, because the separate self/Ego doesn't get to Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness in declaring the separate-self God. There is Intersubjectivity woven into the very fabric of the Kosmos at all levels - Ken Wilber I mean seriously, if one can't feel Consciousness or sentience in another human or sentient being maybe there is some unhealthy dissociation or filter somewhere... What is the other? What is sentient and aware in that? What is that consciousness? That can also work as Koan. And directly understanding or intuiting the answer of that Koan is the source of all love, compassion and gentleness. And why talk about it with "others" if there are none? Why post on a forum with "others" about it? And yes I know, it is all a dream. But what is not a dream? Water by the River

If you have awakened from the head, meaning you can comfortably see that reality is impersonal, empty, meaningless, and are completely detached from it, understanding it's all a dream without any substance, then the next thing to do is to awaken from the heart. Develop a pinpoint concentration in your chest, similar to the concentration at the third eye area. Emanate love from the point in your chest once you start feeling that pressure. Emanate more and more, until you realize you can love that point, and that emanation itself, so you detach from the emanation process, and you're loving everything at once from an entirely new dimension. It's a very intense state of love. Then, combine it with your awakening of your head if you haven't already. You'll see that this dream you saw as impersonal has been breathed with life, as if it's one benevolent being, emanating unstoppable love to absolutely nowhere. Now, let your relative self surface and be part of the dream, however, witness how your relative self is so absolutely made of love. If you don't at least have tears in your eyes, you haven't gone deep enough.

SQAAD, you're pure love. Open up your heart and see how Infinity loves you endlessly. Realize the true nature of reality through your heart, not just your head. That's not enough. Reality loves you so dearly that the only reason it exists is because you want to survive. This whole world, all of infinity is only there for you. It loves you so dearly that it doesn't even have a sense of self, that it's one with you. All of life is of no worry when you understand the indestructible shield that is this reality's love for you. All you have to do is to love it back so dearly that you stop existing as a self just like it has done for you. Dissolve yourself in that love and you'll feel a protection like no other. Open your heart, all of this will make sense. You cannot stop worrying by simply understanding the non-duality of reality through your head. If you only awaken through the head, reality feels like a void and impersonal. That's only half the truth. Awaken through your heart.

No it does not. It's just a sweet spot within the dream. I connect with what feels christ consciousness or buddha shapeshifting awareness but that does not mean at all that I am awake, it has nothing to do with God-realization really. It's just a sweet spot within the dream that allows you to be aligned and in harmony with reality. It wasn't in particular to you I was saying it in general. Talking in the spirituality subforum is absolutely wild, here at least we can speak. I really don't know, LSD feels very impersonal and without personality to me. LSD triggers kundalini which I feel is femenine in essenence but therefore saying LSD is femenine would be an error. Most psychedelics that come from plants have some kind of character or traits, but synthetic ones seem to be more transparent in this regard.

Interesting. I doubt it is a dead relative though, since the objects being moved are completely mundane and impersonal (pens, gift wrap, paintings). It's more like I'm being messed with for no reason, rather than some residual imprint from a dead relative. It's very random and impersonal.

It will not matter whether you think of those seconds (the first and last of the universe) linearly or volumetrically, the concept of the speed of light should imply the possibility of thinking about seconds in terms of volumes. In reality however; even volumes wont suffice for the concept of time, for if it did then there could be no beginning of the universe nor any chaos theory. And so without matter and space you can think about time four-dimensionally, and with the addition of matter and space the second (the measured of time) will actually be a five dimensional entity. What I say can sound weird since we have a personal relation to time as something entirely different than spatial, but this simply cuts away information of impersonal matters.

Someone wrote: Often enough, formal meditation practice comes to be a temporary method of comfort or control, or else an experiential device for entering into “adventure” trance-states, which only serves to strengthen the illusion of psychological identity in the transformation-body. The object of authentic zazen “just sitting” practice is becoming familiar with impersonal observation of the circumstantial mental activity (or not) of the thinker, knower and liver of life by a subtly quiescent scrutiny. However it is actualized is less important than NOT arousing the trappings of one’s mental activity to any greater degree than at whatever habitual level it is accustomed, in terms of one’s following thoughts unawares. Since such observation is carried out as a temporary expedient in order to dismiss mental adventurism of all kinds, in all times and places, it would hardly do to create minds within minds where there are actually none to begin with. Those who resort to trance-like methods of comfort would do well to reflect on this. Why? The profound and ancient traditions’ provisional exercises including specific meditative regimens exist to help eliminate habitual diversions and their spinoffs perpetually devised by the psychological apparatus which only serve to obscure naturally enlightening development in oneself. Such development clarifies an inherent ever-ready capacity to see subtle potential by just observing mind by mind without chasing diversionary sidetracks. Breakthrough in meditative arts is for the purpose of discovering the hidden potential in situational parameters prerequisite for penetrating situational accord in a selfless (nonpsychological) capacity. Such capacity is real knowledge. That such knowledge has no object or subject relative to the person means that one’s immediate acquiescence into the workings of everyday ordinary situations is naturally carried out without selfishly complacent socially speculative motivation— even if it is accomplished within the context of one's own psychological (ego) enjoyment in trance-states. It's called practice in reference to a disciplined approach to a subject one has not mastered, being non-ego-motivated activity. This in itself is enlightening accord in reality. Enlightenment, per se, has no motive. How could it, in terms of its nonoriginated aspect? This, for the uninitiated, is what constitutes innocence in oneself, and purity in one's purpose. Once an entry-level capacity for continuous subtle concentration is “isolated” from within the midst of habit-consciousness and other means of deviance from presence, one simply sees reality as is. Just this much carried out over a long time is sufficient to gradually displace egocentric views by natural nonpsychological effect. Observing mental activity at all times by mind does not require a particular posture. It really does not matter at all beyond an unbending intent to simply observe mind by mind. One just witnesses mental activity (or not) without following its contents. Resting mind on itself without unconsciously following its activity is an ancient device to develop the basis for simply being in a state of independent awareness at all times. This is the benefit of observing mind. There is no other benefit that truly serves the selfless intent of authentic and gradual self-refinement subliminally entering into nonorigination. This is so because the human mentality is unable to function independently by force of habitual reliance on externals reifying the person. This is because the psychological apparatus identifies as the being that is going to die, parodying existence only by comparing itself to objects not considered itself. Its function, having become unnecessarily personified, obscures real (selfless) being’s spiritual function. The temporary device observing mind by mind jumpstarts the natural process of self-refinement which gradually diminishes the artificial to arrive at the real, in terms of human being naturally independent of pattern-consciousness. As for witnessing witnessing, this is a perversion of practical mind by mind scrutiny developed by all authentic teachings. Do not let this develop further. When noting this condition and it doesn’t evaporate on the spot, do not follow it. Just take a break for a while and start again later. As soon as one can observe mind in the midst of everyday ordinary situations without following its thought-streams unawares, one should hasten to do so. Silent sitting is suitable for rank beginners. Real practice and adaptive power that does not depend on oneself develops gradually in the midst of ordinary situations. Though formal meditation is to be considered a temporary expedient, it shouldn’t necessarily be dismissed by adepts of advance self-refining practice altogether.

Infinite Consciousness/Reality (I don't use God though technically correct because it creates more misunderstandings in this context than it solves. Like blowing up the Ego to God-sized dimensions, which the exactly opposite route than transcending the separate self/Ego) is awake throughout. IT is aware, and is what you really are. "It" (True You) is nothing specific (despite containg/being everything), but empty Awareness. Totally empty/nothing, but aware, and containing all form. But arising in it is what you think yourself to be right now (I-thoughts and I-feelings), that you don't see/view fast enough to transcend. You see "through" them, like coloured lenses. These lenses of perceptions (I-thoughts and I-feelings, separate-self arisings, making you feel and think you are a body or mind WITHIN Reality, but somehow separate from the boundless Reality) are what cloud your understanding of the Nature of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. When you learn to view (and cut) these arisings fast enough (long training process normally), awakened or nondual states can appear. Then the locatedness of "you" drops, making You the whole field. And other effects (infinite, eternal/always here, empty/impersonal). The three points above are at least in my perspective more useful to describe the process (than asking what wakes up, God or Ego), because: God or Infinite Consciousness doesn't awake. It is always awake/aware, can't be different. The Ego doesn't really exist (EXist=stand out from Raelity). So it can't wake up. It the sum/Gestalt of the appearance of I-thoughts, I-feelings that arise in True You. Once your mindstream/perspective awakenes, these arisings are no longer believed and (if wanted) totally cut off. Your Ego/character becomes literally something like moskito buzzing around in you. And if the character becomes annoying/suffering, you can "chase" it away like an annoying insect. The volume/believeability of its voice goes to "lower than 5%" of what is was before. That is just a pointer. It can only be really understood what it happens. The tools you use to imagine that state (necessarily including I-thoughts) are those that prevent the awakend state in which you could understand it. So the path is Meditation, Trekchö/Cut-Off every thought, Neti Neti, get empty, change to awakened states. And let these states refine and empty your Identity towards Truth. Because what clouds your mindstream, what you think you are, the I-feelings and I-thoughts, are not what you really are. You are much more. But you can only authentically say that when you are in awakened states. Before having stabilized these nondual states, thinking you are everything is just wishful thinking. It doesn't end suffering. Because it is not a change of thinking/concepts. It is not deciding or believing to no longer belief concepts (That "stripping" would be more concepts). it is learning to cut any arising concept/belief/I-thought/I-feeling FAST enough so that your state changes to awakened and nondual states. Thinking to want to no longer belief or stripping of beliefs/ideologies is itself a thought process, not the cutting of all thought arisings including that one. These are very specific states that have counterparts in the bodily energies for example. Enlightenment is a state shift towards nondual, boundless, and empty/impersonal (at least if there is intention for cutting the mindstream if wanted, for example for getting the bliss of the primordial Consciousness). At other times, the character can do its thing. But the body-mind has become an object doing its thing within YOU, Reality itself. (1) If it wouldn't remove suffering, what should make you stay in these enlightened states? You would continue grasping and searching for evermore experiences, like every unenlighened being. (2) Also, you will know the nature of Absolute Reality beyond any doubt. That includes what You are, what Reality is, what every arising/form/phemenon is in its essence, and that you are immortal. And nothing else can be anything different than THAT. Since anything there could be, in any dimension or realm, would just be more "form" or content arisings within Infinite Consciousness. But what would (2) be worth if you still suffer? You would search and grasp for some other experiences... Which obviously the enlightened ones stopped doing. All of them, at all times. They didn't grasp for experiences, and didn't suffer when they didn't get certain experiences. They for sure had preferences, could feel pain, but they didn't grasp or "psychologically-suffering-wise" resist what is. She who is centered in the Tao can go where she wishes, without danger. She perceives the universal harmony, even amid great pain, because she has found peace in her heart. - Tao Te Ching Since every separate being (or better: perspective) is at its essence Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself, every mindstream will end up enlightened. The game is to cast the formless out into form, explore the infinities of infinities that can be manifested (God will never run out of these), and come back home. It is the nature of Reality. It is apparently what Reality does. Love is what throws it all out, and pulls it all back, and its also the essence of every form. That btw. is not fancy mental musings, but actual Reality, potentially directly experienceable by every(!) being in certain awakened states. Water by the River PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film) "During the evacuation, Donnelly expresses his love for Banks. They talk about life choices and whether he would change them if he could see the future. Banks knows that she will agree to have a child with him despite knowing their fate: that Hannah will die from an incurable disease and Donnelly will leave them both after she reveals that she knew this."

Well, BazookaJesus is the most AWAKE, and Nobody is enlightened. Ok, enough kidding. Awakening: Basically, you can experience 95% of Nonduality/Mystical Experiences with a center/separate-self still not fully seen through/transcended. And that is what prevents fully realizing or Being Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness itself. You definitely can have Unity/Nonduality Experiences with some kind of separate-self (although often quite empty, ego/persona quite transcended) still well & alive. Full Enlightenment: When these last remnants of the separate self disfiguring True Nonduality (or ones True Nature of Infinite Reality itself) are seen through, transcended, suffering ends and grasping for experiences/insights/understandings end. Impersonal centerless Empty Boundless Eternal Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That which you and every being already is right now, can never not be, but are (maybe) not fully aware of. Semantic Challenge: Often Enlightenments and Awakenings are equated and/or confused. But most often, Enlightenment is considered an "end-state", an end of suffering. Understanding of relative stuff and exploration & the adventure of course can continue. But beyond Full Enlightenment there is only more relative stuff (form) to explore. The Absolute Reality has been understood or realized. Suffering is dramatically(!) reduced and the potential of Ones True Nature to fully end suffering is understood and takes over understanding/being what One really is is the hallmark of Full Enlightenment. More on the topic: And confusing Awakening and (Full) Enlightenment is confusing the road to more high-level-dreams (with some necessary illusion/ignorance/suffering) with the road to the Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment, or the end of suffering. All has its time and place, and the point of the ride is the ride. But at some point, comming home is also wonderful. Beautiful Book: Coming Home: The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions, Lex Hixon Bon Voyage Water by the River