Forestluv

One at a novice level: what is the color of sound? Quality koans are post-intellectual. They exhaust the intellectual mind to the point of surrender at which point a post-intellectual insight arises. It’s not thought. It’s also not feeling. Yet closer to a feeling than thoughts. The ones at begginner levels can somewhat be conveyed through thought. Yet I’d say intermediate and higher is full-on post-intellectual. I love watching the old crusty zen monks slap the faces of students that give intellectual answers.

Nope. That answer went through a human filter.

Getting warm. . .

Beginner level. . . Intermediate level: What is the essence of enlightened expression through a tree?

@8Ball I just wanted to say its cool to hear that you are pursuing your natural interest and passion. I'm in the sciences, yet we probably have a lot of overlap intellectually. My mind naturally loves abstract thinking and conceptualization. Even after 15 years of higher education, I only earn an average salary, yet I get three months off a year and get paid to conceptualize for hours every day.

Guys, consider that language breaks down in Turquoise. Turquoise is post verbal, post-intellectual and post-rational. Turquoise is trans-human. It cannot be verbally explained, yet we can sorta point to aspects of it. We have barely scratched the surface of Turquoise and very few people in the world are centered here. Also be mindful that one cannot comprehend two levels higher than where they are centered. So that means very very few people will have any inkling at all regarding the essence of coral. Perhaps psychedelics can temporarily boost someone centered in Turquoise up briefly into coral. Imagine Leo doing a Coral video and just standing there staring at the camera for two hours. You would be like "wtf is going on?". Of course, because you are not in tune with the coral quasi photonmetric immaterial particles emanating from inter-dimensional platforms through multi-frequencies.

It's kind of like that in spirituality. The equivalent of a black belt would be the "turquoise" realm. Just like a black belt BJJ, once a mind-body goes turquoise, the rabbit hole is sooo deep. Maybe someday turquoise belt masters will develop paranormal abilities and compete.

That's a good point. @Tony 845 You can temporarily reach black belt spiritual master levels with 5-meo. It's like transforming into a black belt BJJ for 10 minutes. With your background and desire it seems like it might be a good fit for you. In some Zen traditions they have a progression of stages/levels. The high level monks get a sense of a students development. It can be done for relative conscious levels. There are some high conscious people that can get a feel for people's levels. Egos of course may enter, yet that is part of the spiritual development and teachers would have a feel for that. I'm thinking of UFC fighters and how some are skilled in wrestling, others in BJJ, others in Boxing etc. In our spiritual dojo there could be spiritual masters specialized in energetic fields, reiki, breathing, astral projection, bending reality, self healing, yoga etc. What a cool place that would be to practice and interact with other "wizards". Dr. Strange kind of stuff.

You mentioned you participate in BJJ. I have an analogy with BJJ I like. I'm thinking about spirituality like BJJ. My limited understanding of BJJ is that there are different styles and many different skills to develop: strength, flexibility, intuition, knowledge, balance etc. I would would think there are many different ways to train and one needs to train in many different areas to become a BJJ master. Yet even a BJJ master can develop more or even create new stuff. Similarly, spirituality has many different components and practices. There is breathing, concentration, yoga, contemplation. There are so many realizations and insights. There are awakenings of the mind, the heart. There are empathetic and intuitive modes. There are so many different areas to develop to become a "black belt" spiritual master.

I think you are giving too much weight to the intellect. I see being as one integrated system, including the intellect. Yet if I had to separate the modes of being, I would give roughly equal weight to each mode - empathetic, emotional, intuitive, intellectual etc. However, I think most personality constructs identify most strongly with the intellectual mode, followed by the emotional mode. I would say thoughts and feelings are integrated. When the intellect and emotional modes are at odds, mind-conflict tensions and neurosis can arise. It seems like your intellect wants to be in charge and wants to run the show. Nothing wrong with that, yet it doesn't need to be that way. There have been studies showing how the intellect can influence the body. For example, thinking of positive experiences in stressful environments can reduce stress hormone levels. Yet there are limits. if a body is being burned alive in a fire, thinking it isn't real won't do much imo. As I've said many times, I think beingness is an integration of many modes of being - including the thinking intellect. So I would say most beings are in ignorance of the dream realization due to dynamics within the intellectual (thinking), emotional (feeling), empathetic modes etc. Becoming aware of the delusions of the intellect is the first level. In consciousness work, nearly every human body first has awakenings within the intellectual system because this is the system most identified with. Many will stop here. Once the intellect is transcended, the next level of exploration is generally within the emotional modes of being, which in part includes experiences. Imo, this is much more advanced. Most mind-bodies will want to stay immersed exploring the intellectual mode, which is of no surprise since they identify most strongly with the intellectual mode. I'd estimate only about 2% of conscious seekers that have mostly transcended the intellectual mode have also transcended the emotion/heart mode. A good example would be Ken Wilber. As a minor point of clarity: rather than saying I am at a high level - I think it would be more accurate to say that the self construct in my mind body has dissolved to a great degree. I'd estimate about 70% or so. The personality still re-appears and there are delusions - especially when interacting with other personalities. Self dissolution can be both beneficial and problematic when trying to relate to other beings without immersion in the self. As you said, sometimes I see someone immersed in a common personality dynamic and I have to think back and remember what that was like. So at the personal level, I think you are right. There are times when there is a disconnect - I am viewing things at a trans-personal level, while they are at a personal level. For example, I often express observations that are completely impersonal that people take personally. For example, I may express an observation of an insecurity dynamic occurring in someone. This would be no different than expressing an observation that an ant is crawling on their arm. Yet often humans will take the insecurity observation personally and get all defensive. I have to think back when I used to do that. These days, that only happens in my mind-body about once a month. I don't believe every physical or mental illness or disorder is due to past traumas. Yet I do think past traumas are one variable that contributes to many mental/physical disorders. This gets into some complex integration of the timeline, the Now, the individual mind-body and the collective mind-body. I don't think one can separate each of those components. Can something arise independent of one of those features? Perhaps, yet that gets into some deep metaphyscial realms that go beyond the intellect. Here, I think we need to be careful with a phrase like "no apparent reason". Quite often something arises. To the human, it may seem like "no apparent reason", yet that might just mean we are not aware of underlying mechanics that give rise to that appearance. Again, I'm saying trauma is one variable in an integrated system. There can be many variables. For some conditions certain variables are huge risk factors, for other conditions each variable is a minor risk factor. For example, a mutant allele for the Huntington gene will lead to a neurological disease. That is the only variable. If a mind-body has this mutant allele, there is a 100% chance they will have the disease. There has never been an exception. In contrast, we know of about 40 variables that contribute Schizophrenia. Each variable only slightly increases the chance of schizophrenia by about 1-10%. Some mental conditions involve few variables, others are complex. Disorders like OCD, ADD, anxiety disorder, PTSD are complex and have many variables. I agree here. There are physical conditions in which awareness doesn't help - at least not at our current understanding. For example, someone who has suffered a spinal cord injury and becomes paralyzed. Medical stem cell treatment can restore some function. Yet, awareness and meditation has no effect in curing paralysis - maybe in the 100-200 years it will. Other conditions, like neuroses and chronic headaches can be often be cured through awareness, meditation and self healing visualizations. Yet it's not either / or. Consider something like PTSD - I think this is a case where a combination of medical and awareness treatment is beneficial. Awareness of underlying psychological dynamics can release. Yet as I mentioned, PTSD is also a brain injury. The genetic architecture in the brain is restructured. At this point, it doesn't look like awareness can reverse the physical alterations. I think it has potential to do so, yet this is some VERY high level awareness in which awareness is entering the brain and physically altering the chemical properties of specific target DNA sequences. This is a higher level than Deepak Chopra. I've caught glimpses of this potential, yet I'd say we are at least 100 years away from this level of awareness therapy.

The problem arises when a self constrains enlightenment on the personal level. If your desire is to stay on the personal level, then do personal development work. Save your self years of futile searching. Enlightenment work involves transcending the personality. It includes the personality AND more. It is much more expansive. The entire personality construct is within it. Trying to limit it to the personality will cause confusion and frustration in the mind-body. It is like thinking the ocean is a personality and saying "Michael Phelps is an ocean", "Is that swimmer over there an ocean?", "How can I become an ocean?". This mindset will keep a person in limbo seeking mode forever. The key is that a self has to surrender that it will not become an ocean no matter how hard it tries. Nothing can oceanize a person. The personality is swimming within the ocean. Yet so are all the fish, seaweed, algae, bacteria etc. It's all within the ocean. Everything. Yet the mind will resist this because it is obsessed with becoming oceanized.

Yes, I understand. This view/experience is tapping into nonduality. Yet its not the full monty. This view/experience is melting into the natural world and becoming the ISness of the natural world. Yet it is also making distinctions and includes separateness. To truly go beyond all paradigms and falsehoods, one word is too many. What is being viewed/experienced above is a profound and beautiful aspect of nonduality. Ime, it is much easier to enter nondual states in nature. Nature is a very powerful teacher of nonduality and ISness.

The below comments are general impersonal comments about the idea presented above. The below comments are not directed at the OP. The misunderstanding is due to an idea of enlightenment on the personal level. In this idea, there is an association between enlightenment and the personality. The question above challenges that association and allows the opportunity to transcend a level, if the self can let go of it's attachment to its idea of enlightenment. The trap here is to try and answer the question on the same personal level it was asked. Yet to answer the question, we must venture to higher levels. . . Enlightenment is not at the level of the person. It even goes beyond trans-personal and trans-human. At the trans-personal level the question "If Osho was Enlightned why did he end up addicted to drugs?" is the same as asking "If Alan Watts was enlightened, why did Osho end up addicted to drugs?". What I did here was to break the association of enlightenment as being on the personal level. At the trans-personal level, the two questions are equal. However, the psychological self will have a very difficult time surrendering to this because the self wants to keep the idea of enlightenment at the personal level - because at this level it is something the self believes it can attain. For those of you with direct experience at the trans-personal level, let's venture up another level. . . Some human minds have become aware of the trans-personal, yet are still attached to humanism. That is, enlightenment is not attained by the illusory self, yet it is attained by the human mind-body. This is deceptively sneaky. At the trans-human level the question ""If Osho was Enlightned why did he end up addicted to drugs?" is the same as asking ""If Osho was Enlightened why did the 1989 San Andreas earthquake occur?". What I did here was to break the association of enlightenment as being on the human level. At the trans-human level, the two questions are equal. However, the human mind-body will have a very difficult time surrendering to this because the human mind-body wants to keep the idea of enlightenment at the human level (the psychological self also sneaks in to contribute to this dynamic). One more. . . let's break the idea that enlightenment is something that occurs within the timeline. . . Here, the question "If Osho was Enlightned why did he end up addicted to drugs?" is the same as the question"If Osho was Enlightened, why did my cell phone battery just die?". What I did here was break the association of enlightenment with the person, human and the timeline.

The below comments are not direct at the OP. They are just general comments about the concept presented. . . This is a good point, yet be careful with opposites. When a realization that one extreme is false, the mind loves to adopt the opposite as true. This can be a big trap. For example, a mind may avoid awareness of deception and pretend like it doesn't exist. After deception is revealed, the mind may adopt the opposite view that everything is deception. This isn't quite true either. The claim "everything is X" nullifies the statement. Saying everything is deception is the same thing as saying nothing is deception. Because, saying everything is deception removes the contrast with nondeception. Consider the statement "Everything is Blue". That nullifies the statement and is the same as saying "Nothing is Blue". If everything is Blue, there is nothing to contrast the Blue color with. There is no reference point, nothing to compare Blueness with. Alan Watts spoke often about opposites and inter-dependency. For example, he would say yin is necessary for yang and vice-versa. Without yang, everything becomes yin and there is no longer anything to contrast yin with. If everything is yin, then nothing is yin. There is nothing to contrast yin with.

In the context of how you are using the term "detachment", I think you make a great observation and it would indeed be a trap. I think there could be a distinction made between two different forms of detachment: Pure detachment: simple awareness of whatever arises. Thoughts and feelings may arise, yet there is no attachment and identification with the thoughts/feelings. There is no judgement or criticism of the thoughts. Thoughts are merely impulses in the brain, similar to how the sound of bird chirps are merely impulses that occur in the brain. Attached detachment: once the awareness described above, it is very tempting for the psychological self to take ownership of it. The self now identifies as being the observer watching the thoughts. This can be a safe haven for the self to hide out undetected. Yet once this identification as being the observer has taken place, I would no longer call it detached awareness. There is now attachment/identification to the awareness. And this is absolutely a trap. One I was in for many years and I've seen it in others. A mind can build an elaborate identity about being the observer.

@kieranperez LSD amplifies energetic and emotional systems. It can turn the intellectual system to mud. This can be highly destababizing for some individuals. For anyone with a history of anxiety, depression, PTSD or bipolar, I would be very cautious and highly recommend starting with low doses. I would not take more than 50ug the first time. In this case, 210ug is plenty to get an initial experience and increase the dosage on subsequent trips if desired. It is much better to be underwhelmed than overwhelmed. As well, people's sensitivity differ. For some, 50ug would be fairly potent. For most, it is enough to have a mild nondual experience that would be very unique. 50ug is one of my favorite dosages to spend time in nature. Also, I would recommend being extra careful about setting. I would avoid settings with people and a lot of stimuli. And avoid settings with any type of negative vibe. Empathy sensitivity can skyrocket, so a mildly disturbing part of a song one never noticed can be incredibly disturbing. A trivial micro-aggression in a movie may seem like violent. It works the opposite as well, a subtle beauty in nature can become so beautiful it brings a person to tears. An interaction with a dog may feel like the most loving moment ever.

@Peo Nonduality is post-intellectual / post-rational so it is very hard to communicate through rational discussion. People on this forum are spending waaay too much time in intellectual zones. There are other modes of being that are much juicier. Explaining nonduality through the intellect is like eating a cardboard picture of chocolate. Go straight to the source. Go straight to the direct experience of eating chocolate. Direct experience is much more powerful and direct. Nearly everyone has had glimpses of nonduality. Guide them into reflecting on the own direct experience. For example: 1. Imagine a time in your life you were awestruck by something magnificent. For me, this was seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time and stepping in St. Peters Bascillus in the Vatican. It was so magnificent is was overwhelming. I was speechless. I stood there for a few moments and dissolved. There were no thoughts and no "me". I was still aware, yet there was just magnificence, just beauty. Oneness. After a few moments my self kicked back in and I started thinking things like "This is so amazing!!!! I totally need to get a picture of this and post in on Facebook. I wish that couple would get out of the way - they are blocking my view". Notice the difference between the nondual glimpse and the conditioned dualistic state. These are very short glimpses and most people may not reflect on them. Yet nearly everyone has had an experience like this and you can encourage them to reflect on it. 2. Love. Many people have had moments in which they experienced deep love. Perhaps with a child, a pet or a lover. The person "melts" and loses sense of themself. There is no "me" and "you" there is just the presence of love. This is generally a very brief glimpse and the person "snaps out of it". Then they start thinking dualistically again. Stuff like "I love you", "This feels so good" or insecure thoughts like "What if she leaves me?". Again, notice the contrast between the nondual experience and the dualistic conditioning. 3. Flow States. a.k.a "being in the zone". Most people who have participated in sports or can play a musical instrument has had glimpses into flow states - the zone. For example, a football player completely in the Now. All thoughts dissolve. All sense of "me" dissolve. There is just happenings in the moment. Similarly, a musician playing the trumpet that loses sense of themself and environment. It's as if the person is one with the instrument. As if the trumpet is playing itself. Again, these are brief glimpses. The athlete will snap out of it and think dualistically again. Stuff like "He fouled me!!". The musician might start thinking dualistically with stuff like "dang, I just missed that note". Nearly everyone can relate to one or more of the above. Not only that, it is also a HUGE turn on and gets people's interest. The above examples are the juice of life. Everyone wants to experience more of it. Now imagine telling someone that rather than being in the zone for 2 seconds once a month, you can be in the zone state 20min everyday. Who wouldn't want that? After explaining the above, I ask people "What percentage of your day do you spend in the above states of consciousness?". For most people these are small glimpses - perhaps 0.01% of their life. So brief they may not even be consciously aware of it. I've explained the above and people have responded "Yes! I've experienced that! I didn't know it was a real thing. I didn't know it had a name. How do I experience more of it?". Now I tell people two things. . . Imagine increasing your time of the above nondual states from 0.01% of your life to 1% of your life. That is a 100X increase. Everyone says sign me up. Next I say "I only gave you three flavors of nondual states. There are dozens more that are equally wonderful". This increases their interest and and desire.

In general, please avoid clickbait titles and twisted themes of death, torture, suicide etc.

@Bluebird I took 200mg last Thursday and this Tuesday. No tolerance at all. I’m going to try 200mg every third day. Hopefully it will be sustainable. I’ll take 10 enhanced days per month. My experience today was similiar to last Thursday. It was great for engagement into solo activities. Yet interacting with others felt like a chore and I really wanted to return to my own world.

I was in a similiar situation with my high school sweetheart. After we left for two different colleges, I became insecure and jealous. I didn’t like her looking at and hugging other guys. I would suggest she was cheating on me. I was totally off the mark and felt bad about it for years. I really loved her and felt awful about treating her like that. It was just because of my insecurity of losing her. For years I regretted it and wanted to be back with her. Several years later, I contacted her and asked to meet with her. She was married at this time and I wasn’t looking to get back together or for her to tell me it was ok and I’m a good person. I wanted to make ammends to her and apoligize to clean up my past and free myself from the regret and chains. We met at a cafe and our vibe was very different. She changed and I may have too. That magical chemistry we had wasn’t there. We had a pleasant conversation and then I felt free and moved on. I think one of the keys was that I was grounded when I went to meet her. I wasn’t needy or desperate for her approval or forgiveness. I wasn’t secretly hoping we might get back together. I was working hard on personal development and wanted to make amends for a harm I caused to someone I had loved. We are still in contact, 25 years later. Last year she got divorced. We went out for lunch and I was supportive to her as a friend. Its funny how life works out sometimes.

@KP_Spirituality27 There is so much variety in relationships. Every relationship dynamic is unique. There can be amazing insights, intimacy, personal and spiritual growth. Experiencing deep intimacy and oneness with another through love, laughter, joy and sadness is some of the most magnificent aspects of life. As well, there can be distractions, manipulations, dishonesty, selfishness, control issues that are really unhealthy. And all sorts of combinations of above. It sounds like you are grounded and not needy/desperate. I think this is key in being patient and selective for good chemistry.

1. There are different usages of the term "conscious". At the absolute level, there is no separation, so there is no "you" and no separate "thing" that will come to "you". It is all One giant thing. 2. Time exists as a human construct. Does time exist from the perspective of a tree? Of a rock? Humans just made it up. So the timeline exists as a human construct. And it sure does come in handy. 3. See #2 4. Infinity is everything. There is no thing separate from everything. Go ahead and try to think of something outside of everything. You can't do it. 5. Because the human mind-body is a limited filter through which things arise. As soon as one says "me" or "human" or whatever, you are using relative context. In a relative context, the human mind-body is limited. It's essentially asking "Why isn't limited unlimited"? The higher levels of consciousness involve becoming comfortable with such paradoxes.

This technique is powerful in that it allows what is to simply arise. Yet, be aware of whatever arises. I would be careful about getting immersed within an enlightenment story. That may provide motivation to practice and develop, yet it can also be a major distraction. It's a balance. If a mind gets too immersed in an enlightenment story, it can end up seeking anywhere its whole life. You are always zero steps from enlightenment, yet because of the mind's idea of enlightenment as some "thing" or "happening" or "event", it won't wake up the most obvious thing ever. What is the best route to anywhere?

This was a theme in the series Westworld. I thought they did a really good job with twists.

Strong doses of cannabis edibles can give a quasi-psychedelic experience. In particular, discomfort and anxiety of losing touch with reality. I've found there is a letting go and surrender aspect on edibles. I did an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru that was amazing. Based on the Ayahuasca and San Pedro retreats down there, I would put in effort to researching to find a reputable retreat that is the real deal. There are lots of half-ass, shabby retreats. Yet, also some very high quality ones. In addition to the actual psychedelic ceremonies, I would recommend getting a feel for the community. My retreat was within a small community in the mountains of Peru. This community was at a very high conscious level. I'd say Turquoise-centered on the SD scale. This was much higher than my conscious level at the time and they helped pull me up. The ceremonies were powerful, yet the time outside the ceremonies were equally powerful, in a different way. Interacting with participants and community members. This is where a lot of integration happened for me. Aya retreats can be intense, yet very profound. The majority of participants say it was the most profound experience of their life (including me). San Pedro would be less intense, yet can also be very profound.