Forestluv

I've gone through this myself and it can create really unhealthy inter-personal dynamics and cause distress to the mind-body. I think whether enlightenment can overcome it is a very tricky and nuanced question. Personally, I would focus on personal boundaries. Empaths are known for having poor boundaries and it was the number 1 issue for me - by far. Looking back to when I was immersed in the negative aspects of empathy - the best thing I did was to learn about how to establish healthy personal boundaries.

For me, this sets up a polarity of opposites - which can be useful at times in a practical sense yet has caused me all sorts of confusion as well. I find it helpful to think of it as a coin with heads and tails. Is heads and tails the same thing? Well, yes and no. You can look at each side of the coin as being different. This can have practical value - for example before the start of a football game, they will flip a coin to see which team gets the ball first. Yet, from another perspective, they are the same thing. They are the same coin. They are fully connected to each other. Without heads there is no tails. The next question for me is "what if I stop calling it 'heads' and 'tails'"? What would happen? What would remain? Then, a whole new level of meaning for "God", "Love", and "Oneness" arose.

Ime, words and concepts are helpful in a certain context. For example. . . for many years I was in what some refer to as the "oberver + object" phase. I could reach a place in which it seemed like there was a neutral observer simply observing thoughts and stuff in my environment. When I sat in buddhist groups, many beginner's would get confused by this concept, yet I just understood the teacher because I had direct experience. . . So, a couple years ago I'm watching a Rupert Spira video in which he talks about the "observer + object" stage as a halfway point. I had thought it was the final destination, so I was perplexed. Rupert describes merging observer and object into one as the next stage. He gave an analogy of a movie screen and pixels. I remember not really "getting it". My mind really wanted to figure it out and advance to this stage. It was frustrating at times. I spent a couple days trying to figure it out and at times convinced myself I had figured it out. Yet my direct experience was still being "observer + object". I just had to let the "advanced" stage go for a while. Then I started getting curious about it - but not in a "figure it out kind of way". In a curious way. Like I would go hiking in nature and look around me and the thought would arise "How is this like a movie screen?". It was like the Universe was teasing me. This disappeared for a while and then one day I was out in nature and just had this experience and it was like "that's it". That is what Rupert was talking about. It was just a glimpse, yet it was crystal clear and I started laughing. I realized there are many different ways one could try to explain it. Rupert's is just one way. So here's the thing. . . if I didn't watch that Rupert Spira video, would I still be locked in the "observer + object" stage like I was for 20 years? Did he plant a seed through words and imagery into my mind? I say he did. I think that imagery was a seed. Over-analyzing it was like putting the seed in rotten soil with no water. Yet just being chill with it and curious was like rich soil and water. Then one day that seed sprouted like magic. Now, consider the opposite. . . what if I had that realization without watching Rupert's video? Would I have been aware of the realization? Would I have "caught" it? Or would it have slipped by? Even if I did notice it, would I have dismissed it as being "kind cool, but 'woo woo'"? How many glimpses have I gotten in my life that slipped away? I would say a lot. Overall, I would say words and concepts are valuable in what people often refer to as "pointers", yet it is important for me to not analyze the pointer itself. Rather, to relax the mind and get curious as to what is being pointed to. Let the pointer get planted in my mind like a seed. I think it's good to water it from time to time, yet digging it up to keep checking if it sprouted yet, getting annoyed it hasn't sprouted and adding lots of chemicals on it to make it sprout is counter-productive.

@CreamCat You have made some strong developmental/expansion progress over the last year. Nice work.

This is just what is arising for me. . . There is a difference between the mind trying to explain something in words vs. something trying to explain itself through the mind / words. Consider someone who is color-blind. That person reads about colors, conceptualizes about colors and has many discussions about what colors are like. He tries to explain to himself what colors are with thoughts and words. That will ultimately fail, right? Now imagine this color-blind person receives stem cell therapy and can now see colors. He is amazed. His color-blind friend approaches him and says "Omigosh, you can see colors now??!! What's it like?". The person who can now see colors tries to explain it in words, yet cannot to his color-blind friend. He does his best by saying things "It's sorta like this. . . ". Yet nothing can quite capture it. This will ultimately fail as well. Can you see how the two approaches are totally different? In the first, he had no direct experience of seeing colors and trying to figure out what it is like through words. In the second case, actual colors are trying to explain themselves through words.

I think it’s cool you are being honest with where you are at. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to convince myself of something I didn’t truly believe and it didn’t work. For me, the direct experience is primary, the concepts are secondary. A couple of things that helped me: without the story of being a finite human, what is there? I had to be careful not to engage in the opposite thought story of “I am not a finite human”. Rather, in the absence of any thought story what is there? This allowed me to go beneath the surface level of thoughts and concepts into the deeper level of body sensations. Also, engaging in flow states was helpful. Being in awe of a beautiful sky, being in the zone playing a sport, being in a flow with a musical instrument in which the instrument is playing itself. In all these states, there is no “me”. No human, no story. It is simply being one with the environment and what is actually happening now.

♥️ ?

@noselfnofun I think that is a very good question and I think it depends on several variables - such as the nature of the substance itself, your physiology, energetics etc. Similar to what you describe, I would say psychedelics temporarily reveal “something” and that something can be difficult to integrate into daily life. I often have an afterglow in which I am fully connected and insights are so clear and obvious. Yet, like a dream it can wear off - I find reflecting and writing down the “dream” to be helpful. Yet there are also aspects of a trip that stick. It’s like once I see something, I can’t unsee it. For example, the first time I experienced “ego death” and “rebirth”. That fundamentally changed my awareness and it has never left me. I may forget time to time, but it’s always right back there. For me, each psychedelic often shows an aspect of truth, awareness, enlightenment, nonduality - whatever one wants to call it. There is often a “lesson” and some type of theme. I would say 5-meo has similarities - yet it is special in a way. It is like a crystal. It is clear and contains everything and nothing. For me, aspects of it do wear off. Afterwards, it’s like I’m my higher Self - yet that sense wears off. Yet there are other aspects that are lasting. For example, 5-meo took me to “Mu” in which I was shown all distinctions dissolve to nothing and then reassemble into distinctions again. This had a profoundly deep impact on me that has lasted. I cannot unsee what I was shown, even if I tried. It was crystal clear and very little effort was needed to “integrate” it. I just wrote out the experience in the 5-meo thread and Leo gave some input that it was one side of a coin, that the other side was still missing, that it was important to get grounded in the side I was shown and how I could integrate/stabilize it. It didn’t take much work. Yet I may have gotten “lucky” and was in the “right place at the right time”. Yet I also think there are many variables at play. Overall, I wouldn’t say that 5-meo is any easier to integrate or has mor abiding effects than other psychedelics. It’s more the nature of the substance. For me, it’s the most lucid and clear. And I agree with what you wrote about psychedelics and how advanced a person is in their practice. I had practiced over 20 years before utilizing psychedelics. I had stable job and life. I was fairly mature and well grounded spirituality. If I had tried to use psychs in my younger years, the impact would have been very different. I think this is one key to understanding psychs - they can have very different impacts depending on the person, their level of development and where they are in life. When I was living in the mountains of Peru, I noticed people refer to Aya as “medicine”. Most people in the towns and villages didn’t see the Aya medicine as being good or bad. Rather, it was beneficial or nonbeneficial depending on a person’s condition.

Very nice, looks like you are digging into deeper levels. This may be helpful, maybe not. . . What arises in me when I read your statement: There was a moment in which awareness was aware of itself, then awareness was aware of the awareness of itself. Then awareness was aware of the awareness that was aware of itself. This kept expanding until it collapsed into nothing.

That is not what everyone here is saying. Your thought story is playing so loud you cannot hear what some are saying. Let the cowbell guy rest for a bit - get curious and listen. I know it may seem like the best prescription to cure your fever, but I don’t think more cowbell is helpful here.

@ardacigin I was curious about how your direct experience with 5-meo is integrated into your view. How have your personal experiences under the influence of 5-meo shaped your view? It’s as if you are describing the essence of scuba diving - I’m asking how your own personal experience scuba diving is integrated into that view. That is a key component. What you write about genetics and epigenetics is somewhat true in a general sense, yet there is an underlying inaccuracy regarding the actual mechanistic model of genetics and epigenetics at the molecular and cellular level. This map is really important when designing a larger, more holistic map. At this point, there are statements in your view that are not aligned with the actual mechanics of genetics and epigenetics. You say mindfulness changes the physical mind and DNA in fundamental ways yet don’t seem to have an understanding of the physical nature of DNA and how it is inter-connected to epigenetic mechanisms. For example, if someone inherits an allele with a particular missense mutation in the hemoglobin gene, the phenotype of anemia will arise. Epigenetics won’t change that. Epigenetic modifications will not change the altered primary structure of the protein product - hence it’s secondary and tertiary structure will be still be altered and it will be nonfunctional. Modifying DNA methylation patterns and nucleosome structure will have no influence on that. You can spend a lifetime in mindfulness and trying to alter DNA structure through epigenetic modifications and it would be a complete waste of time. In other contexts, epigenetic changes are play an integral role. For example, after traumatic events and abuse DNA methylation patterns are altered throughout the genome - which can alter gene expression in the brain. These alterations are helpful to cope with the acute event in the moment, yet the epigenetic alterations can persist for years - even decades. These changes can cause phenotypes at the organismal level - such as susceptibility to anxiety. For example, a gene involved in the repression of cortisol is epigenetically altered such that basal cortisol levels rise in the person - this can persist for years. Cortisol is a key stress hormone and increased levels can contribute to the physiological sensations of anxiety. Here, your view is applicable. If we can figure out a way to reprogram the epigenetic DNA methylation pattern back to normal for key genes, the physiology will be improved. Biochemists are currently working on how to do this, yet it is extremely challenging for many reasons. What you propose is an alternate method to reset to epigenetic methylation pattern - perhaps through mindfulness training. This is an area I think has a lot of promise and I am currently experimenting on myself. Multigenetic traits become far more complex and is an interplay between inherited allelic sequences, environmental input and epigenetic modifications. Yet your view is not recognizing the underlying mechanism of how epigenetics is working. In my view, this leads to a distorted view you are proposing that is only somewhat accurate. It is over-generalized inaccurately. In particular, because it is not making the distinction between variations in allelic sequences and the mechanics of epigenetic modifications. Imo, that relationship is key to clearing up the underlying inaccuracies in your view. I’m not saying it is fundamentally bad or wrong. I think you are onto something powerful, yet just need some tweaking. Leo is making a point that is true in a certain context and you are making a point that is true in a certain context. Yet you are not seeing this because you are not making an important distinction between genetics and epigenetics, which I will explain in laymans terms below. I would be happy to go into more detail if you would like to build a more accurate thesis. Epigenetic modifications are a key feature of DNA structure and gene expression, yet it does not alter the sequence of DNA. That is the ”epi” part of epigenetics. That is really important when creating bigger picture models. For example, your “starting point” concept is only partially true. It’s true in the sense that one could consider their allelic make-up as a “starting point” and epigenetics can influence that “starting point”. However, epigenetics is not altering the underlying code, it is influencing how that code is expressed. This is a really important distinction to understand the role epigenetics plays and how we can use this model to rewire the brain. I think epigenetics can be a powerful model in rewiring the brain and I hope it can be combined with practices such as Reiki. Yet one needs to be knowledgeable and skilled with the underlying mechanics to use it wisely and effectively. I’m impressed with your big picture thinking and the way your are integrating multiple fields together. When creating holistic views, I think it’s important to recognize gaps and holes. In this case, I think you point to some insights, yet there are gaps in direct experience and the underlying mechanics of genetics. Imo, adding this in would create a deeper, more accurate holistic view.

@DrewNows I can put up boundaries in certain contexts. For example, I tend to over-share and it often comes back to bite me. I can set up boundaries that I will only share at the same personal level as the other person. I’ve read boundaries is the major issue for most empaths Yet stuff I’ve been experiencing lately is more like magic, paranormal, telepathy sort of stuff. I’d imagine most empaths are introverted.

@DrewNows Yea it’s hard to explain. It’s as if emotions have sound and you are the only one that can hear it. Imagine sitting in a restaurant and sound is emanating out of your body and noone seems to notice it and you have to pretend everything is normal. It can be hard to do. There are other forms I’ve experienced too.

@DrewNows I know spoken out loud. That’s what I’m saying. This is as obvious as if it was spoken out loud, if I stood up and danced on the table, grabbed her hand, or spilled a bottle of perfume. The more intense it got, the louder it got. It was like my emotions and those in the room were on a loud speaker and everyone is acting like nothing is going on. Yet I was dialed in on her and everyone else was tuned out. It can be bizarre. Yet people think I’m crazy, so I don’t talk much about it. There is a collective conscious aspect to it. This might not be what most people call empath, I don’t know. When I was younger it manifested differently.

It was “vocalized”. That’s the thing. It’s just as obvious as if I said it vocally. I’ve only been able to communicate on this channel with one other person in my life. I was totally into it, yet it was too much for her. We didn’t even need to speak with each other. Anxiety doesn’t always arise. Often, I’m cool with it. I’ve been able to “read” people at times. My gf is a reiki master that it supposed to be in tune with all sorts of energies. It was bizarre she wasn’t picking up on this.

For me, it’s like a form of hyper-connection. It’s like all the feelings / thoughts / beingness is floating around for everyone to see. And I can see them too. Intimately. Like I read their diary. It can have different vibes - it can be unbelievably intimate and loving. Yet it can also turn scary. And thoughts can enter and make the anxiety worse - and all those thoughts are floating around for everyone to see. There is no place to hide. I was with my gf in a restaurant last night and started to slip into that space. I could feel her, yet she wasn’t on the same channel. Yet it’s so obvious, how can she not be aware of it? It feels naked - for all to see. I had some thoughts like “what if I wanted to slap her? Would she know?” Then a flood of anxiety. It was sooo obvious - as if I said it. It was out in the open, swirling around. Yet she kept talking as if nothing was going on. I was high anxiety and just tried to act normal in case she didn’t know. It felt like I pulled my pants down and started urinating on the table and noone in the restaurant noticed. It goes both ways, their feelings ate totally transparent as well and they have no idea. I’ve only met one person in my life that was in tune with this. Many others have caught a brief glimpse, yet can’t stay on for more than a second or two.

That’s a reason why I love clear crystal so much.

I hadn't thought of it like that before. For me, I think that sensitivity would make a situation more intense. If there is an intense social situation, empathic channels make it more intense and I would turn off and disconnect. I suppose empathic can be described in different ways. I saw the first guy in the video and was like "that aint it" - not what I experience anyway. In my experience, it is definitely tied to social dynamics and social anxiety - yet a certain type of anxiety. It's not the type of anxiety of "I'm not good enough", "what do people think of me?", "what if I say the wrong thing?". etc. That's totally different. It's anxiety in a very different direction. Like feeling people really personally. Like experiencing them and a type of knowing them. The boundary between "them and me" breaks down, so it can seem like they are also feeling me. Like they are jumping inside of me. It can be extremely intimate with complete strangers. It really feels like they are feeling it too and that can be part of the anxiety. Sometimes, I am unable to turn it down or manage it and that can also cause a lot of anxiety. For example, I was walking in a crowded outdoor fair one time with a friend. Artwork, food, performances - that kind of stuff. Then, I started connecting with people through eyes. I just felt them. In an instant. I would look at someone and know their angst. The next person, worry. The next anger. The next insecurity. All sorts of mixtures. Hundreds of people around me, everywhere I looked. Hundreds of packets of energy/feeling getting thrown into me. As if hundreds of people were trying to grab me. That caused a lot of anxiety. Also, when there was eye contact, it was like they knew. They knew what I was doing - because the empathic channel goes both ways - at least in "my" experience. This elevated the intensity of the anxiety and I told my friend I had to leave. Now. We went to a cafe and we got a corner table. I spent 10min. in the restroom until I could come back out and see any other human. One thing I learned that helps with the anxiety is that the other person doesn't know, unless they are sensitive/empath and on the same "frequencey". I've learned to fake it and just act normal and the other person doesn't know what I'm experiencing - even though it really feels totally obvious and it seems like they have to be experiencing what I am. Like the other person can "read my mind" (or read my feelings). This can create an enormous amount of stress. One way I've reduced the anxiety is by thinking "she doesn't know. Just act normal". And the other person just keeps on chatting like nothing is happening. Perhaps they subconsciously pick up a vibe they reflect on later, yet in the moment they seem clueless. I've only met one person who was completely on the same channel as me. She had been developing empathic abilities for many years. It was eerie. There is also a weird dynamic with narcissists. For me, female narcissists. It's really unhealthy. I've read it's a common dynamic that immature empaths find themselves in. Also, I see a lot of people use the term "sensitive". It's not sensitive in the traditional sense of "he is really sensitive and his feelings get hurt easily" or "she is really sensitive to criticism". It's a very different sensitivity. It's more like being very sensitive to a certain frequency of sound.

Haha. Yes.

The best I can contextualize is: Nothing. Then a "something" appears. There is awareness of that something. Yet prior to that first something, there was nothing to be aware of. Awareness and something arose together. It feels weird to me to say there was "awareness" prior to the first something. It really seemed like awareness appeared with the first something. To me, attention would come after the first something. How can there be attention to a first something? There is nothing else to pay attention to. With the appearance of the second "something", there is awareness of both. I suppose now one could say there is attention - toward the first something or the second something that is present. It still feels weird to say that tho, because there was no "observer" present - that came in much later. As well, there was no "chooser" deciding to pay attention to the first something or the second something.

If those thoughts are troubling, why not let the thoughts go and just be thoughtless?

Perhaps you are missing the bliss, the magic. Perhaps you have an idea what the bliss and magic "should" be like and are therefore missing what is right under your nose. You would need to let go of that thought story about what bliss and magic "should" be like. When one transcends the self, a whole new world arises. Beyond anything one can imagine.

I've experienced 5-meo several times and I'm a bit perplexed by this statement. Could you please relate your direct experience with 5-meo to this contextualization? Your statements about genetics seem vague to me. It doesn't seem like you are making the distinction between inherited gene sequences / alleleic variations and epigenetic modifications. Your statement could be partially true in a certain context - yet it seems like you are conflating two very distinct genetic concepts - which leads to misinterpretation. If possible, could you clarify your view regarding the distinctions I mentioned above? Without making the distinction, it's like one person saying "the light doesn't work because the lightbulb is burned out" and the other person saying "well, just flip the light switch on". With the distinction between lightbulb and light switch, the statement makes no sense. What good is flipping on the lightswitch if the bulb is burned out?

If we assume the existence of a "you", then of course. That is part of playing the human character. A blank movie is boring to me. There is so much left to explore in the relative world and the human world. It's magic. Sometimes I like to role play. Sometimes it's fun to get immersed into a character and be that character, as if the character is actually real. Other times it's fun to just observe the character. Other times, having no character. Variety is the spice of life.

For sure. I'm currently exploring this area. I would add that there is also a lot more other stuff possible when you dissolve self and other. A whole new world opens up. If a mind-body is not immersed in self and other, what's it going to do? It's going to be aware of new somethings now. And those somethings that arise are magic. It's another world to explore. Regarding rewiring the brain, I think we are still at the very early stages. Very few people are aware that this is even possible, let alone doing the practice and development work.