Setty

@Leo Gura I think using spiral dynamics to determine qualification of a person on any issue is very limitting. It assumes one can not have useful insight into the matter if he or she is lower on the spiral and it gives undeserved qualification for people in higher stages. Just look at many turquoise people around the world. How often happens that they create a cult following in which people are so mesmerized with them that they worhip them and then they get stuck. The fact they were higher on the spiral did not automatically mean they were the right influence on people in lower stages. I think the biggest problem of the green stage at the moment is that most people within it did not integrate lower stages well enough. This makes them demonize lower stages and they have a similar emotional reaction to those stages as those stages have an emotional reaction to the green stage. Also I would like to point out that Peteron openly says that he believes psychedelics create genuine mystical experiance that transcend our material world and if that doesn't help people to raise their conciousness then I don't know what will.

@Leo Gura How can someone who says brains don't exist to be taken seriously? :)) I don't know much about PragerU their channel seems to be very much conservative. And I don't know if Peterson agrees with everythnig they post. I will be on the lookout. And you are right there are better resources than him. But how many of them resonate with so many people that are in stage blue or orange on the spiral? I think he plays an important role regarding their evelation into higher stages. But if you think he isn't really evelating them then I get it why you don't like him but I just don't see it. But I will consider you position further it is true that in the past he said some sketchy things (especially regarding his stance on feminism) that I didn't really pay attention into because I regard him as a conscious being who would never do any harm and we all know how that stance about any authority plays out in real life. It is just so long I took attention in anything he has been doing. I have just lost track.

@Serotoninluv You make good points and I understand that less developed people consider more developed people threatening to their worldviews so they unconsciously lash out. But I think you consider Peterson less devoleped than he really is (I am posting a few videos of him regarding many "green" issuses to make a point). This is the problem I have with spiral dynamics arguments as a whole. It divides people into distinct categories that are hierarchical in nature. This might create a big blind spot for us because if we consider ourselves higher on the spiral we might unfairly dismiss that person on the spot without even considering anything he or she has to say. This model often serves as a convinient way for us to be just closed minded. And I think that is a shame because we might lose a lot of potentially deep wisdom from people lower on the spiral. We have to take a person to be something far more complex than something that we can easily label by a color. This is also why I think this model shouldn't be taught in schools because it will only serve as a way for people to not really think about the arguments of anyone disagreeing with them and just make them dismiss people on the spot. If you took the time to watch these videos please tell me why isn't this person to be taken into account when you are after some insights regarding our society? Is he really so undevelopted and shifts people inevitably into alt-right? I know I selected very specific videos that reflect him in the right light (if obviously not please tell me I might be delusional). And I know you can find a lot of things he said that are not very intellectual but man who didn't say some stupid things throughout their lifes. We were just lucky the camera wasn't recording at the moment.

The biggest problem I have with the debades around Jordan Peterson is how unnegotiable people tend to be arguing againts him. He is just an obstruction that needs to be trampled and ridiculed just as anyone who would even dare to think he could have a point so we can then focus on creating a more just society where everyone is respected as they deserve. Well except for the likes like Jordan Peterson because those people are deluded lunatics that just obstruct our endeavour of great society. What I am trying to say is that Peterson has many flaws and his views might not reflect what really is and should be but if we can't have a civil discussion about these issuses without name calling and belittling peoples opinions and insights how developed are we really? Are we really conscious and loving? Not in my opinion. And you can say I am low on the spiral and if I were to develop myself more I would see why you are right but that is just a petty belittling and it is the eqivalent of saying: "You are just stupid!".

Jordan Peterson is one of the best spiritual leaders the Americas have right now.

@Blake One of the reasons to aim to experience non-duality is to realize the absolute truth which has value in itself. This is an experience that is not permanent and people come back to their normal ego mind. Then they can reevaluate all their own dualities and make themself a more wholesome person in doing so. The problem arises when we aim for permanent nondual experience of the world. This is the problem of seeking enlightenment. We experience a nondual state of being that we classify as better than our normal dual experience. We create a separation between dual and nondual and since nonduality contains all of duality within itself it creates a conflict in our mind that it unresolvable in nature. If you are not fine with dualities you are creating a duality. I think enlightened beings are completely fine with duality because they can clearly see it is part of nonduality. But how they transcend to this kind of consciousness I have no idea.

@jamsterX You can also say that the brain tricks you into thinking you are separeted ego and this is the real deal. You can also say that both points of view are correct and it depends on what your definition of the word correct is. Our brain evolved over millions of years through natural selection to have a very specific experience of life. This particular experience is not nesesarly correct it is just the most suitable for survival of the individual. This kind of experience of life was beneficial when we were close to animals and it was all about survival. Now human beings strive to make life something more that just that. If everybody saw that we are all one we would eradicate all evil doings of the ego. But something like that won't happen for a very long time and we are not certainly ready for that now either. But there can be a small minority of people that have this non-dual experience and this kind of people can make this world a little better place and incrementally prepare humanity for the fututure where everybody can make this non-dual experience real for themselves. You are completely free to make anything you want from this non-dual experience. So you might as well create a life that is a worth living.

@Nihal217 It seems that you have experienced a lot of intense states of consciousness in a short time. The problem is that it takes a long time to process and integrate such experiences and if you over do it they might cause you more harm than good. If you are taking psychedelics consider to lay them off for a while. If you have a strong desire to escape this world and to achieve something like enlightenment and you want it as soon as posible for whatever cost it is a sign that your ego is on a rampage. It is a litte different from an ego that wants power, sex, fame or money. It is just that its goal is now more virtuous in its own eyes. I recommend approaching spirituality with a peace of mind. The kind of a mind that doesn't cling to ideas and its need to fulfill its goals whatever it costs so the chance of you going over your head is minimalized. You elevate your conciousness through discipline and a drop of humility and that needs patience and time. If you don't invest into these safety nets you just might crash and burn so watch out. Also to answer your first question these experiences are in my opinion very rare. People get taste of them mostly through psychedelics but soon after they do whatever they can to forget them and act as nothing has happened so they can live their normal lives.

@Nihal217 You should consider building strong theoretical foundation if you want to progress deeper into consciousness work for many reasons. Firstly if you don't you might become a zen devil. Leo has interesting video about that. Secondly many mystical experiences may damage your functionality in everyday world so having some theoretical foundation to help you interpret those is extremely helpful because you don't have to reinvent the wheel. In spirituality there is a danger that you convince yourself that you are more developed than you really are and because of that your way of life might become pathological and you hurt yourself and others in the process. If you build strong theoretical foundation the probability of that happening se lessened. Hope that helps.

@iamnotahumanbeing @Setty Also I should add that the disolution of boundaries happened a few times after that experience without the use of weed. Which was a big problem for me because I didn't know how far it can get and it generated a lot of anxiety within me. I was in fight or flight response those times. I think the biggest obstacle was my inability to handle strong emotional reactions to these kinds of experiences.

@iamnotahumanbeing With weed I had my first, what I would call, sober mystical experience. The rules of my reality radically changed. The boundaries between me and others started to melt and I couldn't control it. There was no me and there was no other. Everything was moving in union. And I realized my life was a lie the whole time. Everything I strived for was a play with no substance and depth. But my identity was still there and I relized I could end everything right there, my whole life, the charade I have been playing on myself the whole time. Or atleast it felt like it. I don't think it is as simple as that to be honest. It felt like I have to go through hell and worse to get to the other side and I wasn't ready for that. I wasn't even planning for this experience it just happened. Then something started to drag me into it without my consent and that is the time I had a big ego backlash. I haven't done anything stupid but I got a lot fragmented afterwards. The next day everything was devoid of meaning. Nothing was important to me. Now it was not important to finnish school, to be a good person, to strive. I was so confused and empty. I didn't know what to do so I just did my routine. I worked hard to get back on track and make sense of what happened to me. And it worked and now I feel better than ever. I think this is the biggest problem with psychedelics. The fact that we are not equipped enough to handle such a strong experience. You get fragmented and you have to put yourself back together. Which can be really useful and beautiful if you can do it.

@Leo Gura @iamnotahumanbeing I have experimented with weed as a tool for some time and maybe the fact that it isn't as direct as other psychedelics is its own advantage. With other stronger psychedelics everything is done for you and you just surrender to the experience. With weed you don't just get blasted away. Thanks to that you can experiment with meditation or self-inquiry and you can observe what works, what it does and how. The fact you have to actually do something before you see any results with it is super usefull because you can than use that knowledge for your everyday meditation. It is quite unique experience and it can get pretty deep too. Some states I had on weed combined with meditation were much stronger than some of my LSD trips. But it is true that I haven't tripped that much (three times) and I don't smoke weed anymore because the side effects were too noticeable and I am trying to finnish school without any hindrances.

@PetarKa Why are you worrying about your free will? If the free will is an illuson your worrying will do nothing to change it. If there is free will then you don't need to be worrying. It is completely unnesesary for you to suffer this conundrum. The trip could help you tremendously or it could harm you. The question is how would you deal with a bad trip afterwards? Where would you go for help if it made things worse? What would be your refuge? Maybe answer that question first. I never had a bad trip (only uncomfortable ones) but I experienced many negative effect of psychedelics after the fact. And I think the worst thing about it was that I had to keep it a secret. I had to suffer in silence. There was no one I could talk to about it and share the pain with. After a while I found a therapist that specializes in psychedelics and it helped me tremendously. Just the fact I could tell someone what I was going through helped me.

@Manjushri Maybe a therapist that specializes in psychedelics would help. You can open up to them about your experiences and they help you translate them into your everyday life. Also why do you call family norms unconsious? If you are lost in the psychedelic experience love and caring from your family and friends is the thing that can ground you to earth. Are you sure it isn't just your spiritual ego that thinks it knows better than it actually does? Maybe the simple and "unconscious" everyday life is the thing you need right now. You know, find beauty in the little and unimportant things and forget about the realm of psychedelic experience fow a while.

JP threads have always so much action and excitement in them. I am fan of his work because he raises great points regarding your individual responsibility in your own life. And this point is critical and it is the reason he is so popular on the internet. He teaches people to stop feeling like a victim of life and instead take responsibility for it. This insight is something that is so important to understand and is hugely missing in the general knowledge of people. Most people here think people like him because of his views on traditional gender roles and tradition in general but I believe that it not the case. People here also like to project A LOT how he thinks and how his supporters think and are not really interested in understanding his views. You just demonize him. Do I see it wrong? I see it this way because when I talk about things he does right people just tell me I am cherrypicking a I should see my own bias. Yes I might be biased and I could do a better job adressing that but if you think you aren't biased on this matter you are just deluding yourself.

@Solace I belive human is a creature that strives for something constantly. That is basically human history in a nutshell. If you get rid of that you get rid of a human spirit as well. It is a great insight to see that the world is already perfect as it is but we can't forget that the pefection includes our striving for better too. We don't need to strive to be in a state where all striving is stopped. Unless it is the part of existence you want to explore of course.

@Joseph Maynor Yeah it is very easy trap to fall into. You get the glimpse of the absolute but your mind immediately makes up something out of it and you start to believe your conception of it is the real deal.

@Ingit Wel it is a unique experience. And most of the time the experience doesn't involve world crushing elements. That happens mostly if you aim for it or if you take too big of a dose. If you are going to do it do it focus on safety. Luckily psychedelics are safe for your psychical healthso you don't have to worry about that. But read some articles about it. To make sure you mental health is safe do them in a good and friendly enviroment with a trip sitter you trust. And read some trip reports so you know what to expect. There is a lot of them on this forum. If you are interested in the spiritual aspect of it then combine those substances with self inquiry or meditation. Leo made a great guide on self inquiry in the link below. If you do these exercises while tripping it is very likely you get the mystical experience everyone here is talking about.

Your mind works in a way that is the most beneficial for your survival. That means it creates a lot of persistent illusions in your life that you live in your whole life and you call that a reality but it is not reality it is very limited form of it. Psychedelics offer you the ability to change theprogramming of the mind and see reality under different point of view. The mistake people that haven't tried psychedelics make is that they think that this different point of view is just some minor thing. Some anecdote you can tell your friends and that's that. But it can be life changing. Actually it is technically impossible to tell how much world crushing it can be. Think something along the lines of combination between Neo taking the red pill in Matrix and Truman from Truman show realizing his whole life was just a charade. And you are right they can be very bad for your psychological health because you can see too many things you are not prepared to face. And if you are not careful you will create a lot of delusions about what you saw.

Yes LSD is enough to give you some insights but it just doesn't give it to you you have to work for it. It is a tool. Try to do self-inquiry when you trip that does the trick for me. If you are not sure how to do it properly try to read Leo's practical guide to enlightenment. Do the exercises when tripping and see how it goes. Higher doses also tend to be more insightful but it is important to focus on safety first when dealing with this substances. The insights with a higher dose could be owerwhelming and at that point you won't get it out of your body.

@Serotoninluv Well he is skeptical of postmodernism because he is thinks the made up structures by humans are useful and if you tear them down you might make a big mess. Here is showing his traditionalism. He thinks that people made a very complex understanding of the universe throuout the years that somewhat works and if you dismantle it too quickly the chance you will make a better system is close to zero. I think his problem is that he fears too much of what would happen if you just get rid of it all at once. He doesn't understand he would find the absolute in that. But who knows that without the prior experience with psychedelics? As for the LGBTQ. He doesn't think it is wrong to be homosexual. He thinks the traditional family works well because the child needs to have a role model of the feminine and masculine at the same time and if you are a homosexual couple you have it harder to teach it to the child. So they have a big responsibility and because it is a new problem no one really knows how to deal with that. As for the pronounce controversy he doesn't like to fact that it should be ilegal for him not to choose to call someone by their prefered pronoun. And as the new made up genders go I think he doesn't like them because again it forces other people to change your speech to suit them.

I would suggest that people on this forum should consider stopping categorizing people with colors of spiral dynamics. It doesn't help you to understand the positions they hold and it just allows you to dismiss them without any consideration of their arguments. People resonate with him because he offers solutions that work for them. Maybe you would want people to learn different values that resonate with you. Well you are free to embody those values but it isn't up to you to decide what other people should want. Now let's go through some Peteron's core positions and I would really like to know why do you think they are outdated or wrong. In everyone's life there is a lot of suffering. You think that it is bad and tragic but you are more than competent to deal with it. You won't find meaning in life if you only seek happiness. Life is about taking responsibility in your life and finding meaning in that. Don't identify yourself as a victim. If you see yourself as a victim you will become bitter and you will hurt people around you. Take responsibility for your life and make the best of it no matter how unjust it is. Emphaty can hurt people's development. If you take responsibility from their life they might never navigate life by themself. When taking action you have to think not only about your present self but you have to think about you in a day, week, year and so on. You therefore have to sacrifice some of the present for the future. Happiness now might not be the most important thing. You have to treat yourself and others as someone valuable. A being with tremendous potential that can be realized. No one ever got away with anything. If you warp reality for your benefit it will eventually snap back and it will not be good for you. You have to have faith in your potential. Even if there is no evidence that your endeavour will accomplish anything it is important to have faith in it. The way you develop yourself is by facing your fears. You put yourself in difficult situations that aren't overwhelming with some reasonable chance to succes and as you get use to it you will increase the challenge.

It can be pretty intense. I used to take it while I was meditating. I mainly focused on body awareness and breath. It gave me a lot of insights about my body and emotions. Now I stopped using it because I could not translate it to my sober state and it created a lot of frustration within me. I also had a mystical experience while using it. Hard to describe but I comunicated with some kind of being that was not of this world. This conversation was leading to destruction of my existence and created a lot of bad trips and confusion for me so now I am hesitant to investigate this matter further. I know you can ask how do I know it wasn't just a delusion and of course I can never be sure but it was the best conversation I ever had with anyone and I have never experienced so much clarity and connection from a conversation with a different human being before. I felt so much love and understanding from it it can not be described with words.

I am also having a problem with thinking in too much english. Now I have a habit that when I hear something interesting in english I immediately try to articulate it in my own language so it would have the same impact it had in english. Thanks to that now when I have a conversation and I think up something in english I can pretty comfortably translate it into my own language without much of a hindrance.

I noticed something similar in my speech too. But I wouldn't say it was because I was losing my ability to speak but I was more conscious of what I was saying and I demanded more from myself to speak better. If you are too concious of what you are saying it will hinder your ability to speak spontaneously. So I would recommend focusing on speaking spontaneously than speaking properly. There is an exersice you can do that will make you confortable to speak spontaneously and Leo suggested something similar in this video. Basically you will define words as accurately as you can without really thinking about it. And you can use any kind of words it doesn't need to be something complicated. I have been doing this for a while and now I am more comfortable to speak without being worried I woudn't be able to get the point across.