theleelajoker

Well, you want a relationship just for the sake of having a relationship? Or is the desire for a relationship pointing towards sth else? If so, what is it pointing to? Maybe everyone is doing it all the time, even if not fully aware of it? It's about the balance of action, communication, reflection, feeling in a constant flow of experience. It's never one thing but a system. Don't get stuck on the thinking part. If you are, I recommend any practice that put you in touch with your body, your feelings, your right side brain. Activities that calm down the nervous system are helpful, too. Helps me to do more and think less. With more doing, the answers typically follow.

Seems to me that the whole discussion took a different road...but anyway, I can agree to this: On the other hand, I am not so sure about the formula "a lot of sex with hot women = happy life". I know two guys that do that a lot - they both fit the typical "alpha" traits: Money, social status, good looks, muscular frame, strong body language, confidence that borders on arrogance. But: none of them seems to be really balanced and happy in life. One is telling my that he has been depressive for over a decade and he has a close relationship with alcohol. The other one once told me that he is scared that he has mental issues, since he cannot develop feelings for any of his conquests. They both specialized in "getting girls", they optimized their strategy, their "frame", their moves, their body language etc. You can see observe how they play the game, you can learn such behavior through practice. But I do not get the impression of them being happy or in balance or whatever. They put so much time and energy into learning the techniques of attracting women but they are not so much in touch with their feelings and needs. Are those two representative? No idea, those two are the only ones I know who are getting a disproportional large number of hot women and hence my only data points. Yeah, oc sometimes I wished that I would have taken that or this girl home with me, but other times I just did not feel it and then I was quite happy to go home alone. Or I sometimes took them home with me but felt quite empty afterward (my last ONS was like that). Could be just me, but I am OK with fewer girls but the ones I really connect with. And those I really connect with, I don't need to be anyone else than myself. No strategy or no frame is needed. Which leads me again to the beginning: Just be yourself and the rest will come - including confidence and the right girl(s).

There was already some great feedback in the posts before, so I just want to share one little thing in the style of storytelling that you probably can implement easily - breaks. Just a few moments that give me space. Personally, one of the main reason why I did not feel like finishing the video was bc it was "too much informaton too fast". Breaks to give the viewer / listener time to process the content you just presented. Alan Watts does IMO a great job of presenting information. Inspired by him, this is how I like to present ideas and information: Starting with "easy" information that audience is likely to be familiar with (activation) A open question Then a short break for audience to look for their own answer Then the idea or content I want to transfer (new, unfamiliar information on abstract level) Then a concrete example of no 3. that a) relates with audience b) is easy to understand c) ideally creates a vivid picture in people's mind (when using video, now you could show the picture or video content illustrating this example) Again a break for audience to process .... Flowboy made some points re "hooks" that goes in a similar direction. I am typically careful to present ideas ("could be like that") rather than dogmatic statements ("will be like that"), as in my experience it increases the openness of people towards this information I want to introduce. Hope the post it is useful in some way for your further content.

@integral and @mike41 You two are spot on with everything. I will break up tomorrow. It is actually scary HOW spot on you are, both of you, with everything that you said since the first messages. So spot on in describing her behavior and also my perspective, my projections, my denial etc. THANKS A LOT for sharing your point of view. Long story short what happened: Things went well for a few months, we made progress and she got even got into painting again (her way of dealing with her trauma) but then there was a turning point - meeting the family. Since then the whole thing took a sharp turn and it just does not make sense anymore. No progress, no love, n o intimacy, just drama, accusation, fights, etc. What I can say: I grew A LOT during this time, found many shadows and confronted them. Me and her had some great times, too. Hope she finds good therapy.

Question: Do you think it's possible to have a healthy long term relationship when you are - at least approximately - not in the same "stage"? Very often in talks or in conflicts with my gf, I see that she is not able to see or to understand what I am saying, While I believe that this is "normal" to some degree, I feel that it increasingly bothers be that we don't really understand each other. It's not a "I am better than you " but rather a "OK I see where you are right now. I really do like you a lot but I wonder if I am the right person for you right now (and vice versa)" It costs me more and more energy because it automatically puts us in a "teacher - student" or a even a "perpetrator-victim" role setting. For instance, we have a conflict and I say "Ok, I realize I did this and that etc and I am sorry" while she just goes into accusations towards me and refuses to take responsibility for her actions. Sometimes I stay calm, see it for what it is (insecurity, trauma, ego, subconscious protection mechanisms of the psyche). I tell myself that what matters is focusing on me, that she is the way she is (with other great qualities) and as best as I can I refrain from any expectations of how she should behave. Doing my best to accept her just the way she is. But sometimes it really bothers me. I know and I feel she is adding drama where conflict could be avoided easily. And the way we both are, we cannot talk eye to eye because of these roles and patterns. I know people change and I do see a lot of development in her. At the same time, I have been growing as well and the "gap" between stays the same. I also believe that she is bothered by it as well, but in an opposite way. She once said "how do you think it feels when you have the feeling that the other person (=me) is so much more mature than yourself?" One of my thoughts is that maybe in the past, I "needed" these roles for validation and recognition. That's why I (subconsciously) chose back than her but now I wonder about the fit in the today... PS: I know Spiral Dynamics is just a model and not the reality. But I do find value in it as it helps to cluster believes and values I see in people + people knowing SD will get my question without me doing a lot of explanation

Yes, got nothing else to add to that Except maybe that this evening with her and the time since has been very harmonious

@Yimpa Yeah, you have a point there I think we might mean sth similar but the semantics in my definition is tricky. In your example, the path I have in mind is 1. Accept that this is the reality. You are bullied. Don't try to deny or change this experience you are having. Don't label or judge it as bad or good. It's like receiving a message. 2. After acceptance, you can act accordingly. You can confront the bully, get help, distance yourself etc. You do whatever it is that feels right. I don't mean to unconditionally remain with whatever is if it does not feel right. Everything changes, but you can only change what you accept first.

What is your definition of Love?

Thanks for your replies. I thought about it like this: If I love someone or something, I accept the thing/person just the way it is. No intention to change anything. If I do something out of love, I do it simply for the sake of doing it, without any expectations or desired outcome. It's loving the experience, no matter what it is. Assuming that life just "is", nothing but an experience, I really like this quote I read on a blog once: "You can either love everything or you're not really loving at all"

So funny how easy it is to get lost in the divine drama. I once thought I figured it out and then - boom, back again. This time "waking up" was actually quite ironic because (unintentionally) I did not sleep much for a while. I got kind of "high" from that, and then a lot of things clicked. After some sleep I am back to "normal state of consciousness" but some learnings remain...or at least, so I believe now One thing I love about forums is a) all the perspectives I get from other people and b) that I can go back and see what I wrote - my thoughts, feelings etc. So there is no denial, just a real good look at my stories and construction of "reality". @everybody that took time to reply & especially @integral - thanks for the support. Much needed, much appreciated. I'll go play a bit in maya Gonna see my gf tonight and I am really looking forward. No drama, no meta talk, no trauma - just enjoying the moment and the small things like watching her smile, laughing together and cuddling : )

F***, it's all me, isn't it? Can be quite confusing, this "waking up"

I don't think you have any idea how useful. Frankly, it's not only her - I see those patterns you described also in me. It really only clicked with your last post when it came all together. You wrote that I remember things fairly, balanced or positively and that this is the result of a loving childhood. That's only true to a degree. I tend to see the negative often, I don't trust easily and I question "does she love me?" as well. My childhood was anything but loving and the thing about unreliable parents, abandonment, narcissist father etc. - yeah, you can put a check mark there. The degree might be different, but seeing you laying our her likely thought process (which fits all my experiences, observations so well that it is almost magical) I cannot help but be reminded of me and my own thought processes. The double standard thing, the lack of integrity - my father was probably the superman of hypocracy and lies. And being honest to myself in this very moment - f***, I can see parts of that with me, too. OK, self-development, meditation, psycedelics etc helped but the veil of ignorance I cast myself now slowly disappears...I have been blind to many of my patterns the same way she is blind to it. That's why the meta-addiction - rationalizing feelings instead of feeling them. That is likely also why me and my gf found each other - we share these traits to some degree. For me, it becomes pretty obvious that I need to do trauma therapy. The one thing that is true - I do my best to be optimistic, glass half full not half empty! So I feel that me and my gf, despite all the stuff - we do have a connection. I remember once she told me "before we started dating, I made up all kind of bad things about you in my mind to give me a reason not to date you". I found it strange, until a while later I noticed that I did the same. I told her this and she said "you know, that is one reason I like you - I believe that we understand each other without the need to explain much" So maybe we can make it a common healing journey. At least for a while. No idea is that is possible, her trauma seems much deeper than mine. Especially what you mention about the negative memory & the bias is quite difficult. I often noticed how she changed stories with this very bias but I never made the connection you explained. Whatever it will be, I focus on myself and see where it gets us. I need to do some research and find me a therapy...

Again, thanks. And again, you are soooo spot on. Yes, I am addicted to meta. Thx for pointing this out someone needed to tell me this urgently She is not there yet. She needs to do it in her own time and way. The way I have doing it has been is using a hammer where a hug would have been the right choice. The synergy with the meta, the dopamine hit, the laughing about it --> that is exactly what I have been talking about with my sister today. I just could not see it as clearly as you put it. Crazy synchronicity. The mundane, staying in maya, keeping her relaxed etc. Yeah, I have been doing it partly but my meta addiction + deep talk also came into play. I think that also represents the hot-cold dynamic: Half of us fits her needs very well, half does not. Half is the reason she wants to run away, the other is why she stayed so far. The "helping and selective memory": OMG, I can see it now. Makes 100% sense with what she said and what I experienced Now the very funny thing: ALL the points you make - I see how she again and again told me these points as well. More or less direct, like women often do but sometimes quite direct. I just was not able to listen and to understand. I was stuck in my own program. "Life actually tells you all you need to know, all you got to do is listen" is what I always tell friends. Yeah, great job of me, this listening I had one thought a couple of times and now it comes up again: Maybe she is the right one BECAUSE she is not into Meta and BECAUSE she makes me do and communicate things differently and BECAUSE she is not ready. I don't mean to be unauthentic or adapting to her needs...but to play a bit in maya myself. Go for the mundane. Stop "metaing" all the time. Just enjoy her beauty the way she is. My desire to help stems from my perception that she is suffering and I would like to help reducing it..but I obviously cannot do much. Next week, I start a new job where I actually teach meta-stuff all the time so I think that will reduce my desire to talk about it with her. We all need a break once in a while after all, right? And over time I will see if I feel like having a partner that is more similiar or that the difference is what actually is the right thing. Despite me (unintentionally) pushing her so much she is still with me. Kind of surprising given what I understand now. I think there is one part in her that really wants to wake up and likes that I am giving my best even if I do it "the wrong way" Re your similar experience: I feel with you and I wish you the best. I won't say no more, all the meta things I could say you already know. I honestly don't know what to say. These interactions in the last two days gave me more clarity about me, her and our relationship than I ever could have imagined. I have a deep feeling of gratitude and I hope it transfers through this chat. I don't intend to strain your patience - at the same time, would you like to give your opinion on the provocative behavior? I do it myself and neither with her nor me I could put together the puzzle pieces yet. My guesses so far: Attention seeking? Trying to push people away and see if they still stay? Rebellious act bc of past suppression in childhood?

Hello everybody, this is my first post in this forum. I have read many very helpful posts of other people that is why I decided to post my own questions here. Introduction: I have experiences with psychedelics since 2016 and started Vipassana Mediation in 2019. This year I reduced the psychedelics but increased my meditation practice, most of the time to 1h a day (only Vipassana). On the one hand, Vipassana practice helps me a lot to see things clearly (makes sense as it literally means "insight" and "to see things as they are"). But on the other hand, I am becoming super confused about my reality as well. The intention of this post is to hear your opinions and experiences so I can learn and (maybe) reduce my confusion. Mystical experience example - Hero Journey For instance: I know about Campell's hero journey and since a few weeks, I actually experience my reality as if I am in it. I met a wonderful woman, we are strongly connected and my experiences with her fit the description of meeting the queen goddess in Campell's Journey. Moreover, I had moments where I clearly experienced and recognized the feminine power in her but also in other women. To be honest, those were often quite humbling moments (I call them "teaching moments"). These moments happened right after I read ("coincidentally?") about the yin-yang balance and how the feminine tiger keeps the dragon's power in check so that he does not get over-confident. Well that humbling happened to me and fun note on the side: the woman I date always had a "cat-like" personality and I had called her various predatory cat nicknames even before these teaching moments. Moreover, my 4-year old nice always calls me a dragon as we often played with a toy dragon in the past. There are much more little puzzle pieces and small details to the story and they all fit perfectly, but I think you get the meaning of what I try to describe. These above teaching moments were right on time, because I experienced a lot of synchronicities and a lot of situations where I clearly had the feeling of "OK, I created this moment". I feel more and more how my presents actions create my future and also how it changes my past just by shifting perspective. I read about the "messiah complex" and I think I did fall prey to this, taking myself probably too important - thinking that the world evolves only around me. At the same time, those manifestations show me that I do indeed create my reality - but to what extend? Are we all going through a "Hero/Heroine" journey because this is the archetype of human experience - or is it "me writing the script" of this journey because my mind came in touch with this information, this journey idea earlier? And then, the movie idea of being both the actor of my life and "writing the script" as screen writer of my reality - is this only because I have read "Cosmic game: study of the borders of human consciousness" by Stanislav Grov, where he describes this analogy, a few years ago? Again, am I really experiencing "truth" or just a product of my mind that was fed information by which I create and interpret my current reality? More mystical experiences - reality shifts? I can see myself mirrored in the outside world, in the people I meet. For instance, since I do and talk more about vipassana, or literately ANYTHING else I suddenly meet (random) people everywhere that have done or are about to do it as well. At the same time, they are independent beings right? So am I just connecting with people on the same vibration (law of attraction) or am I "creating" these versions of those people? As in "I shift to the parallel reality" in which those people do the this exact thing I am doing? (this idea kind of goes back to the Bashar teaching I have read). I also believe to recognize "different versions" of me and they seem to come along with something like "test" for me. I don't know what it is - but there is something "alive" in peoples eyes when these situations happen. I clearly and definitely see something in people's eyes that is simply "different" and more alive. Since my increased Vipassana practice, I also have the feeling of "reality shifts". For instance, I feel that if I overcome my fears and express my self truthfully, suddenly a "shift" in reality occurs. I was in a job interview and got offered a project in which I had the feeling I am not suited for. I swallowed my ego and expressed truthfully this assessment. Instead of being told "OK then it's not for you" (= my expectation and my fear) I had a strange feeling that something changed - and I got "rewarded" for my honesty with a "Oh well I know that but I still think the job fits and I would like to offer it to you". As if the person (the character?) itself in front of my fundamentally changed through my action. Situations like this happened many times over many years. Might be "just my fears and negative believe system" about myself but there was definitely a strange feeling of a "shift" in my guts + it also happens without negative believes and fears as in the example before. As in simple conversations in which a person suddenly changed tremendously as reaction of my words / actions. What is "real"? Moreover, I remember "waking up" from deep meditation one day and thinking: "All information I have ever received - it's just outside information. What do I actually "know"? Did for instance medieval times really exist? Is there a real "history" or is it all just "background ambience" in my personal experience, created by me, for me? And even then, some things in this reality must be "fixed", right? As in just because I don't believe in gravity, it still will be there tomorrow. And by posting this here - am I posting this to me in some way? Am I creating the person (or the version of the person) answering to this post or did and does the person already exist independently from me? Finally, I have very strange dreams in which I "learn lessons" and wake up feeling as I made a jump in consciousness by living through this dream. Where do we actually "go to" when we dream? I mean, even typing this "awake" right now, I am dreaming now as well, right? Right? As you can see, the amount of questions shows my confusion. I apologize for the length of the post at the same time I think I needed to express it. If anyone can in some way relate - this would be highly appreciated! After what I have read from others so far the answers will probably be "both - you create your reality and you do not create. Your mind looks for an logical, finite answers but there is none. Stop searching for answers and just be" Seems about right - at the same time: If there is anything you can say beyond that - would love to hear your opinion!

@Simple Success Now that I think about it, there are a few big themes of our conflicts: 1. She not telling me the whole truth about sth.: I am disappointed bc if she can't be honest with me with small things, how can I trust her? Probably some ego projecting here as I am disappointed she still does not feel save enough to tell me the truth about how she feels. She probably does it because she was used to fulfill parent's expectations and has difficulty to express her desires 2. Provocative behavior: To be honest, those things are intertwined because I realize in hindsight that I (subconsciously) provoke her too. It's always a back and forth. Difficult to see where the dynamic started and by whom. But sooner or later it's too much for one of us and we hurt each other 3. She gets defensive, is closed to views other than her own, deflects responsibility: After reading what @integralwrote - that's on me. Will work on my communication Re the stages She - greenish. She has a strong sense for equality, community. Status is not very important to her. She does not think systemic and is not familiar with ideas such as non-duality. Thinks rather in terms of judgement than in terms of integration. Sometimes falls back very quick into red (also makes more sense for me after @integral post - she feels threatened) Me - yellowish: Systemic thinking, non-dual thinking and action, integration, shadow work are major themes for me right now. The conversations I have in this forum indicate to me that there is a long way to go until I can act in a way consistent to the next level.

@integral: I am very grateful for your replies. To be honest, I am in a kind of "positive shock" because you hit the nail right on the head. This is really something for to work on and to improve my communication. You have no idea how valuable this is feels for me right now. THANKS A LOT! yes, I often made this "masculine - logic - thinking - ideas" mistake in our talks. Now I realize how blind I have been. I remember one time when I was really able to transfer important messages to her. She even said so ("now I was able to listen much better to what you were saying"). It was a time when I was able to make her feel good. In case it helps anyone reading this, I was giving her a spontaneous caring, non-sexual massage while talking. Probably the physical attention and intimacy was crucial (she is also a big fan of cuddling). OMG, I have never seen it like that. I can see it so clearly now, also for my belief systems and the way I justify my emotions with rational frameworks. I think now I also better understand the "drop all concepts" talks. Concepts are just a blanket created by the mind, but the way we feel is what really matters. Now as you say it...so many experiences I can see in a totally different light. Again, how could I not see it before? Yes, I "knew" that after reading a book once. And forgot it. Not easy to rewire my own patterns. Great that you remind me. Ok, this part is crazy. In our last conflict, she was accusing me "of always being so negative". I did not really get it and interpreted it as "OK, she bothered by her own shadow part and just projecting it onto me". Now I see how this was already the beginning of the "breaking up process", or at least is the defense mechanism because of the very thing you said: I challenged her + I did in a bad way that triggered her -->Reaction: f*** this guy, he's so negative, I gotta get out of here. On the other hand, might it be a good sign that she told me that directly? It felt like venting, and I observed that she kind of "needs that". Afterwards she clearly feels better and we are typically more harmonious again. Right on target. She does not like to talk about it much. What I know from her or reading between the lines is: Father seemed to be a narcissist, or at least some narcissistic tendencies. Very impulsive behavior so that the kids had to watch out every moment to not do anything wrong Mother seemed to be in a victim role, "sacrificing" herself for the family. Was never happy with how my gf behaved or what she did - she could never do it right to her Parents did not like each other but stayed together anyways. Father busy with his own trauma, could not be a responsible parent, not reliable at all. Mother never confronted father but coped with passive-aggressive behavior. This fits all very well with what you said. She always had to be on edge and defend herself. Puh...I definitely have to process this. I would like to ask a few more questions, I do have the feeling that your replies will be helpful again: She is also very provocative. Testing the limit of how far she can go. Quite cute when it's playful, but she very often crosses the line and goes beyond what she knows is considered as respectful by me. What you make of that? What is your advice how to handle it? Let's assume it is not too late and the breaking up process is not irreversible yet. So my best approach is to communicate non-violent, not putting pressure or expectations on her, not challenging her, focusing on positive emotions, physical intimacy (psychedelics are not an option for her unfortunately). Anything else that you see as helpful to reduce the "threat" I potentially pose to her? Positive / negative emotions: So the idea is that if she feels good around me and not threatened, then she has a safe space and can open up to the negative emotions from her trauma? I see how a lot of the actions I can do in our relationship is just being a decent human being. I see where I failed (a lot!) but also when I managed to be a caring partner, giving her the time, safety and space she needs. I know that no one can say, especially on a forum with little info - but I wonder if there is a chance this might still work long term? Or am I getting too much into helper syndrome trying to make this work?

My first experience was the same. Did not do it for a long time afterwards. One time I was high on weed and kind of intuitively did it and I realized "oh, actually not bad" Now I only do it with very few women and only when I feel like it. For me its important to get a vibe first: How does she smell in general (especially the neck area)? How does she taste when kissing? Does she seem like a girl that takes care of herself and her hygiene? If yes, I get a ´first impression of her taste by kissing the area around her pussy, eg the inside of her thighs and around her underwear (IMO great way to approach the moment of taking her underwear off btw ). If she "passes all tests", I do it. If not, then not. When I do it then I learned that I really enjoy it Gotta be careful with her cycle though the taste and smell varies a lot within the month

@integral I don't know why, I was just doing some work and then this quote from you came to my mind. And I could not stop thinking about it. Do you mean "survive" in this context in a way of ego protection? The reason I am asking is that when I thought about your quote, there is one situation that immediately came to my mind: She recently came back from a meditation retreat (her first one). I already did a few of them and we talked about her experiences. At one point I told her that those retreats and the meditation practice afterwards are a big reason why I have the world views and belief systems I have. I said "after you had your first retreat, you maybe understand better why I believe what I believe. For example, I believe sometimes it is just necessary to go through a certain kind of (emotional) pain because pain is not a bad thing per se" In this moment, her whole mood changed. All the easiness, calmness and balance from the retreat went away in one instant. There was an energy as if you blow air into the embers of a fire. She looked at me with fiery eyes, her tone became sharp and she said "But if there is something that makes me feel bad, I will not tolerate it! I spare you the details of the following discussion about "pain" and "suffering" and how I see the difference. All I want to say is that this very scene came into my mind at the same time I thought about your quote. The scene came so clear, so sharp and I did not think about it for weeks before. I feel like this moment might be symbolic for how strong her ego and its will to survive still is. And how big her resistance to pain. And it makes me sad right now because I feel like these attitudes might be the very things that will doom us as a couple

Seems like a valid strategy. I guess my loneliness-feeling will pass like everything else. Anicca. At the same time, I realize I have enough on my plate letting go of things and focus on the love part. At first, they quotes did not resonate that much. It took me a few days and some recent experiences. Now I can see much better why you like them. Beautiful. All of them. This one stuck the most.

What I mean is dishonesty in form of self deception, not a straightforward lie. Not a "yes" when people clearly and consciously know that the answer is "no". But rather a "subconscious lying". People speak "their truth" but they are still lying. So often, this is happening: People tell me things and my intuition tells me that "sth is off". What they are saying contradicts what I know about this person and situation. And/or they are fumbling sth with their hands, they shift position, their voice becomes strange, eyes move away etc. EVERYTHING but their words tell me that they are uncomfortable with what they are saying, and it simply screams "lie" into my face. I can clearly see that what people are saying and what people are feeling are not aligned. My response is threefold: Mostly, I just let it go. Some form of self-deception is probably healthy and it's their life, not mine. Sometimes, I respond with a hint or a comment. This is the case if I believe that I observe a self-deception that might be very harmful for this person in the long run. Depends on the person, context and our relationship. I am doing this less and less - people tend to hate the messenger and not the message Other times, hearing some kind of lies triggers me so much that I feel the need to respond and to confront. This is the case when I am personally involved in the lie. For instance, people change a story about how I behaved or what I have said etc. with "bad intent". Eg they gaslight or they make me look worse while making them look better. They lie subconsciously but they nevertheless do it. The reason is typically 1) to preserve their self image or 2) to avoid consequences that might arise when telling the truth and the result . When I really confront it, then I typically experience a process of " denial first stage - denial second stage - a little but of truth - a little bit more truth - and finally a "OK now there is the truth" My problem now is the following: The more I meditate, the more I work on myself, the more honest I am to myself - the more lies I (believe to) recognize and the stronger becomes my urge to call out people's bullshit. I see it with my friends, family, partner. Staying calm does not feel right for me in case no 3 but it gets really exhausting to again and again fight for the truth. Moreover, I feel like distancing myself from people that do lie a lot. But where to go? Who is left then? I have the feeling that only a very small amount of people make a real effort to be honest. Facing the truth is painful, at least at the beginning of this process. There are very few people that I know that have a "healthy amount" of self deception. Also,with such lies, I feel like there are two parts in people: Part 1, I call it the "surface part", feels attacked and hates me for calling out their bullshit. But there is also Part 2, I the "finally part". This part is super happy that finally someone lifts the veil of self-deception. This part says: "Finally, actions and feelings are aligned! No more tension, no more fake bullshit, finally I am free! And you see, once you did let go, it was not so bad at all?!" Right now, I feel torn between actions. Calling out those lies frees myself and also the "finally part" of others of so much tension. But if I do it too often, people will hate me at some point. Finding new friends that have a similar level of honesty has proven difficult. If I don't do it or even if I pick my situations carefully, I create tension in me. I feel like saying sth but I don't and it simply does not feel right to stay silent. And finally, especially in case no 3, I feel very much disrespected about the lies. But can I really be mad at people for these self-deceptions? I mean, we all do it, me including it is just a matter of how much and with which intent we do it. When can we be held responsible, and when not? Can you be mad at people for these lies or gaslighting or should I take the high-road and just let them be? And maybe lying is just part of being human? "There is no truth without a lie" and so on. I am really struggling with these questions right now. Opinions are welcome, curious to hear how you see this topic and how you handle those situations...

Ok...reading through the replies I get the feeling of "Oh yeah I got stuck in my own s***. I can see it more clearly now". Time to get back on the horse and do my best. Funny how easy it is to get lost but also interesting how fast those issues dissolve after spelling them out and "only" a few posts from other people with perspective. Thanks.

@gettoefl yes that thought crossed my mind as well. Question is how to handle if their best is gas-lighting, double binds etc? What to do with narcissist, power-driven behavior? How to handle friends, family and partners that act like that? Yes, I can take the buddha approach, preach compassion etc. But reality is that I am not Buddha. Doing this is possible for me sometimes but not all the time. I see the patterns but my ability to stay calm is less strong than my understanding of what is going on. Eventually I do get triggered and if it gets too much I feel like distancing myself from these people

@Salvijus: Yeah, same same with everything - observe, act mindful and don't react. Gotta pick up my vipassana practice again @DefinitelyNotARobot: Well, this is taking it to another level : D I do believe in the cosmic game idea. They are certainly playing a role They are in a way definitely a mirror of me and my actions So you mean that I am actually deceiving myself constantly to be a human and my experience points me towards giving up this false belief? Or at least realizing and accepting it? This thought gives me actually a new completely new perspective, thanks for that What I take from it that it is actually just part of reality. Much more, self-deception is a necessary condition of it. So why resist what makes this game possible at all? Rather, integrate and welcome it. Or am I missing your point? What is left then is the social game aspect of it...thinking out loud: self-deception and lies are OK as long as it does not feel malicious towards me. If it does, it is best to observe and avoid ego response while at the same time take considerate action to distance myself from it

Wow, that is quite an analysis. Appreciate it. Unfortunately, I know that what you described is a realistic scenario. I once have been in a toxic relationship and this seems like a 2.0 version of it. I learned a lot since then and she is by far not as immature as my ex. She's in therapy, she actively works on her patterns and I know she does give an effort. At the same time, I see the limitations of change. It's like a growing plant - no matter how much water, sun and care you give it simply takes time and there is no way to accelerate things. In your experience / opinion - what is it that attracts her to me? I think it is more difficult for me to see as I am emotionally involved. I would guess she is looking for positivity/lightness that might be underrepresented in her, looking in me for stability and identification she cannot give herself. And speculating a bit more - maybe she is subconsciously looking for a relationship that will not work because it confirms her belief system ("I am not worthy of love") The last point would then be valid for me as well - only that I started to realize it a bit more than she does at this point of time...