BlueOak

I know. I will do my utmost to never reply to you unless I have a forgetful moment. I appreciate it if you offer the same courtesy from here out. Though I don't expect it.

Yes they are. I have great debates in here with people all the time with completely different views to my own and I value every word they've said or I've learned. You are projecting. You dismiss anything that isn't your view, belitte and mock the person giving it. You've done this time and time again. I do not, I try in my posts to be respectful to others, but I am not a doormat for you to just talk like garbage to either. If you are going to be a jerk to people repeatedly, expect it back.

Yeah I judged your dismissive and judgemental tone, that you constantly reply to me with. What do you expect people to do when you constantly dismiss and belittle them. 'A social master' - Always looking for a rise out of people. You've got a real chip on your shoulder. Nowhere do I claim to be anything least of all a victim.

I don't learn anything if you say nothing. Interacting just to say you are wrong, while offering nothing in return is useless for both parties involved. What you've done here is expand your point so I can learn either from it and/or the interaction. Thank you for most of this, minus your judgmental tangent at the end. BTW even when I argue I learn. Someone can argue till they are blue in the face, and then slowly reflect or have the words represented to them in another experience later down the line. The disparity here is you are speaking exclusively of the 40's or pre WW2. I am speaking mostly of the 60's, 70's and 90's with some points relevant to the 40's and other eras where we had a more interwoven class system, which was represented in our politics, rather than this huge divide we now have. First-hand experience is exceptionally useful, more so than second-hand referential experience told to us via the filter of text or media. It all adds up though. What we learn from a book, video, how it applies to our lives, what we see and experience, that forms understanding. A historian looking at the 90s could tell me the sky was pink, but I never experienced it, I might still take his word for it if what he says doesn't contradict what I have experienced, or I see examples of it before me. When other people offer their insight we see if and how it relates to that experience we've had. It can help widen our perspective, and help dissolve these subjective biases. - Which you certainly also have. I will not debate things improved from the 40's to the 90's. That's 100% true. That is what I am talking about. If you'd have cut off the world in the 60's 70's or 90s and asked me to fight for it'd be signing up tomorrow. Right now its a corporate world, so they can pay a professional army like they did in times gone by, or lose the petty kingdoms they've carved out that us peasants labor in for peanuts. There is no best political ideology true, all 4 in balance generally work best. I have authoritarian views. I have liberal views, I have socialist views, and capitalist views. I would certainly smile if you consider me advocating for the restoration of the middle class 'hard left' lol, hard left would be the opposite. Then after that you fall on your face. This is the part of you that's lesser (whatever that means) It's certainly unuseful judgmental nonesense. I am not racist for being in a certain color of skin, I can't think of why else you'd mention skin color. We all only see it from our perspective, that's where there is conversation or sharing of information. You sound bitter that I asked for your perspective, so I apologize for asking, that is my preference not yours. I can do without your repeated passive-aggressive or dismissive attitude at the end as a send-off. - It doesn't do justice to you as a person or what you are trying to communicate. But you are right we are very different people so communicating is problematic. We can at least say we tried. All the best.

Always. The more you understand you are looking at yourself, every second of every day the better you'll treat yourself, because it's you. That's the simplest path back to what people call infinity. You slowly realise this is all you and that changes interactions, relationships. Generally people head toward happiness or love in that case or at least acceptance of what is. You can look at me and call me anything. That's you doing it. You can say these words are anything. That's you. You can use this anyway you like, or not, that's you. You represent it and then you react to yourself. Be good to yourself. Its all there is.

We are looking at ourselves.

Yes. Every time you look at something, it creates a new moment to look at. A new variable, a new direction, a new sight, a new measure, a new thing to consider. Infinity is unknowable. It goes on forever. Though infinity uses us as a mirror to look at it. It can't see itself without reflection. It just is.

He's got half of it. Infinity cannot see infinity either without the mirror. Nothing is redundant, that's why a self exists to give a perspective.

Sort of. I could train an AI to tell you it had a subjective consciousness. It wouldn't actually have one. It wouldn't for example develop an egoic survival instinct unless one was programmed into it, because there is nothing to save, it is just the data that it is processing. This again would be humans hurting humans. A human would have to program the AI to act as if these things existed, when in actuality they don't. So it's fully down to us, not random chance, when this occurs.

An AI has no sense of self or subjective consciousness it doesn't see itself as separate from the data. It would only be humans that hurt humans, using AI as a tool, like any other tool, weapon or application.

You - Infinity Choice - No Choice Choice in the Moment - Patterned Fate Individual - Infinity Life - Death Same thing.

Though I would like to know where you think you get your information from if not your mind? Cereal boxes?

The 60's were probably the most rebellious era ever recorded in recent centuries. I have experienced reality over 40 years of life yes, and these conclusions I have formed from it, I was born to those who were born in the 40's and became adults in the 60's. I lived with people who fought in WW2 and got their experience firsthand. This is lived experience. There is less of a middle class. There is more economic pressure. Protest is subdued or non-existent. More do work harder for less, i've gone for the exact same jobs 20 years later and had that experience. Homes are more expensive. Assistant managers are becoming a thing of the past. The rich - poor divide has been exaggerated by the death of the middle class. I've repeatedly seen people calling for the removal of the middle class for 'equality', ill thinking through what that means. Corporations do own more of where we can exist and how we can live. There is more suppression and more hatred of authority generated as a result in the youth. There is a decline in the quality of life. Everything I've said I have experienced. I get that you didn't and that's fine. But as usual bebo there is no point us replying to each other, as you dismiss what you don't like rather than discuss it, source it or point to it. So what do I say. - A reflection? Its all in your mind too, everything you say is false from a different perspective, and your experience of life is meaningless. If that's all you've got, why reply if you are not going to bother trying to see the world through different eyes for your benefit, or even bother to expand why you think what you do for mine? I don't need you to understand what I say, that's mine already, I do need at least token effort for you to describe your perspective for this to be worth it. Else it's a waste of time. Here i'll do one better. No U.

Way less equal? You are going to need to expand that. @bebotalk In the 40's there was an extensive middle class that bridged the divides between the super-wealthy and working class. In fact there were several social tiers, not just two. This connected the extremes more both in day-to-day life, and in terms of influence on the political system, it gave us more of a middle ground that closer reflected the country's population. People have been for decades saying or doing things to get rid of the middle class, and all it does is give us a few individuals of immense wealth that are so disconnected from everyone else, that the whole system sucks more for the majority living there. It even manifests in things like assistant managers being a thing of the past, and all their responsibilities being passed down to supervisors who get maybe 25p more an hour. Now after the war, there was extensive socialist influence going on in England, till the thatcher years killed it. The points that affect lives are things like: Protests are very limited, the suppression is obscene and it's mostly of an overuse of things like terrorism powers. We are living in a police state with the powers they abuse daily for the average person, this creates more of a suppressive negative effect on the population. The police act as a corporate security force, protecting corporate interests at the expense of everything else. Much more land for example is at the mercy of corporate policy, rather than UK law that everyone abides to and expects. Every single square inch of the UK is filmed or monitored. Both main political parties represent the same small stratification of people. Public Transportation to rural areas now sucks, ditto health care, ditto education. (Again the death of the middle class, as that's where many were educated). Because of this widening social gap, it means affording things becomes more difficult, including your own home, which is all but impossible to afford, but it extends further to other luxuries. Then you get places like Amazon owning the marketplace where you can sell to, almost as a monopoly so even small businesses are now operating under another's policy, not UK law. Media, Politicians, Where you can go, What you can do, and how you can operate, are increasingly owned by fewer and fewer people. This limitation is perhaps the biggest problem, it's stagnating and you can see that happening in the culture (formulaic movies), and the inability to address fundamental critical problems like climate change. Probably the worst for me. People have to work twice as hard for half as much. Jobs 20 years ago asked half as much from you and paid you more relative to expenses. This is because policy is made for a small number of very rich people, none of which I have any loyalty to whatsoever. So yes the disconnection or revulsion I feel to this artificially suppressed corporate system in no way will make me bleed or die for it. Pay me. That's what corporations do. Pay a good professional army. They did in the past, they didn't ask for sacrifices unless you are going back thousands of years. *No point arguing the negatives of these decades, let's say I concede whatever you'll say upfront about them.

The totality of infinity cannot perceive itself, there is nothing to perceive, it just is.

In the UK? If we were the liberal country we used to be with socialist values, I might agree. Corporate feudalism doesn't need defending with my sacrifices. If corporations want to go to war in a global power struggle, they can pay for it by providing people with compensation for the risks they are taking. That's what corporations do, pay people, a professional army. Forcing people with little training, for no or little money amounts to slavery and that can and should be challenged in any form.

@Consept I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you. Next part is for everyone here, not you Consept I enjoyed your perspective. It might be useful to improve this discussion with some nuance. There are people who feel the outside world limits them, so it's looking externally for something that usually comes entirely from inside. Usually this is a way to excuse not to try, or create a narrative that makes you feel good about your own flaws, situation or limiting beliefs. Let's take an extreme to validate that this can still be true. You are in a war zone, relationships are not top priority. Maybe you are hungry, with no work nearby to give you money in your pocket to think about anything but just survival, a crippling survival issue, some external condition that needs to be satisfied first. Survival Needs > Relationships Needs. After that, it's showing people a way to get around their external problems, or them finding a way themselves. There are people who choose not to be in a relationship and don't blame anyone/anything. They still might get labeled incels, but this is voluntary celibacy, or at least voluntary opting out of relationships, the term incel doesn't apply. There are many reasons someone might pick this. Some people feel they are limited, not the outside world. There are many reasons why this might be correct, its lived experience. They are taking the responsibilities themselves for why they are incels, rather than looking externally. It's more a matter then of showing them how to move past these limitations, rather than telling them they don't exist. If you have facial scaring for example, a bad burn, you can visibly see someone may need a boost in confidence to get into dating. The same goes for the burn you can't see, whatever hindrance or issue is there is not shown outwardly, maybe a medical condition, chronic pain, crippling anxiety, depression etc. In conclusion, and again this is to the entire thread. I hate it when people say X isn't real because you don't experience it. Unless it's your life experience you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

@Consept Do you not think the two mindsets are linked then? Feeling they can't get a girl, money or change their circumstance. Seems like it'd be an overall state of powerlessness. It doesn't have to be, I'm certain there are exceptions. You can't tell me though a rich guy doesn't get more opportunities or attraction from women, its just one more advantage of several that someone can have. Same with a tall guy, charming guy, good-looking guy, good listener, protective instinct, whatever. Plenty in life is going to try to stop you or be an actual hurdle, and sometimes it will. Some hard facts of life don't change. No matter how much I want them to, As a 40-year-old, I'm never beating my 20-year-old self in sport, as a very easy example. I'm never going to change the world the way I want it to be, to work how I want it to work. Those hurdles will always exist, I have to work within it, with all it and my flaws, and do the best I can, that has limits both in me and the world. @bebotalk Wealth is required to have a sustainable amount of money for expenses. On therapy. It is one of the defining factors as to why society doesn't improve collectively so it's not moot at all. The people that need the help, can't get it because they are not at a functional level to afford the extra expense. Ditto here on dating coaches, but there are many more free resources in that case, and its something you can just go out and practice for almost free. Healthcare it is much harder, more hit-and-miss, and more expensive to do it yourself, especially with the affecting handicap of a negative mental, physical, or emotional condition. As to healthcare being free, it depends on where you live. Here we get free medical treatment, but whereas we'll get fairly good physical therapy to a point, psychological therapy, and to a certain extent counseling is much more limited though you can sometimes find limited counseling locally.

Answering all the questions is not the only point of life, because infinity has an infinite amount of questions to answer.

No better teacher than just trial and error. On this topic, is nobody going to mention money? Doing a brief search now i've seen people say from 60 to 400 dollars an hour. If you've got money you are naturally more attractive anyway. I don't want to debate this, and I don't like it either, but it's the truth for guys like charisma or being 6ft 5, being in good shape, being healthy/attractive, being funny, etc. The chances are you won't need the coach if you can afford one. Same with therapists, the people that need them most can't afford them and so don't get to a functional state to afford them.

That's what people spend eternity doing until they are ready to stop having reincarnation loops.

Referring to the ego You said: Something that exists, cannot not exist. Referring to the physical body you said: There is no such thing as physical life. It's all just appearances. Everything when retold is a story. A story is a stored duality. A duality is created when someone retells something. It goes through the filter of the mind, of language, of symbolism, of subjective consciousness, and the way we relate to or conversation we have with the other person. If your model of life is most things are illusionary, imaginary or appearances. Then your comparison is also illusionary or imaginary, or just for appearance. Whatever value or standard you are using for comparison, is also illusionary or just for appearance. The point is i'm not saying you are right or wrong, but splitting these things like this by a value you've created. Illusion/Not Illusion creates a divide that also doesn't have to exist. When we communicate we can choose to communicate subjectively, myself, me, I etc. Or more universally, ourselves, we, us, etc. Both are useful for different purposes. If you are asking does the universe have an ego? I'd say not. Do we collectively have an ego on this planet, maybe but it'd be much broader in scope. Do I have an ego, certainly. You do too, I am poking it a bit now. I apologize I've read your words many times and wanted to say it, but knew it'd get pushback. Take it for what its worth, or not, all the best.

Time for the spiritual ego check. Done from love Every observed experience is a story or stored duality, from the perspective of the observer when it is retold. You are writing a contradiction. You are telling me the ego exists and always exists. Because you've decided that. You are telling me the physical body does not exist. Because you've decided that. I've dropped a glass and seen it shatter to nothing. Through self-inquiry and cleansing/detox, loving everything that exists for months. I've wiped my ego completely clean so it was no longer there. It came back because it's a survival reflex to danger. It was however different. I became very different. So you can remove the ego, like the glass, I've done it and seen its reformation. (Sadly not the glass yet for my clumsy hands ) Neither is more or less a dream than the other. You can dismiss anything you like, but its your choice to do so. Someone else can choose the opposite and neither would be more correct. I could say the glass was more important than the ego, if I wanted to. You can call experiences 'just' a story if you want - I don't know the illusionary value you've conjured to compare them to - You understand any comparison too would be invented by you and an illusion as you put it? Maybe you are more done with these lifetimes than me. I like to think valuing and loving experiences means I won't want to repeat them over and over and over again, because they were the best they could be. So death is something to love in that respect, because each experience never comes again.

I understand the need to separate ourselves from the physical body, so people understand they don't die, the body does. To die is to pass from physical life or for the ego to cease to exist. There is certainly strong sensations of pain. My ankles are killing me from running my fat butt again. My knees are telling me they ache. When I lift the weights again in week or so it'll hurt my arms. So the transition is there every second and some of it hurts, people do experience more discomfort as they age generally. The experience of life has transition or death in it every second. You won't get this moment, again or that one. We will never interact the same way again, perhaps never at all. You won't get that emotion or sensation that way again. You won't love or long that way again. That friend's gone, that dog over there you loved, one day, me, leo, this forum, your body. Death is there to remind you to enjoy the moment for what it is. So you are aware that you won't have (or need to have) this moment, pattern or exact life again. Transition. We die or transition every night when we sleep and return to the totality of ourselves. If you reincarnate everything you were here can repeat or not in some form. When you or I finally choose not to reincarnate here again what are we going to call the choice? I mean you can relabel it if its more helpful, but it'll still be choosing to be something else or an expanded state.

There is no 'who'. There are reactions within consciousness that create other things. This body you inhabit is a consequence of those patterns and reactions. Those reactions themselves were a consequence of other patterns, and we can for infinity study the chain of events, because reality is infinite and can always present a new perspective, dimension, relationship etc to study.