kbone

@inFlow That kind of response usually only comes from a peep who has transcended, at the very least, the brunt of the mind's agenda to control and/or pit itself against itself (i.e., sabotage). Does that ring about right?

@Bjorn K Holmstrom In some ways, I concur. Idealism is a perspective, or maybe just a way of talking about things of this nature. In communication, words are like arrows; once shared, they’re liable to hit anything, hehe. They often only make real sense to the mind trying to express what Truth is like, taking us back to the Taoist maxim, “The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao” and other such expressions. The actual Truth is prior to mind’s rendition (i.e., perspective) of IT. This acknowledgement gives insight into The Flower Sermon. Maybe this touches on the ‘skepticism to the claim of idealism’ you mentioned. I'm curious to hear what you think. Once Truth/God/Awareness/’whatever you wanna call it’ has been realized, the mind is seen for what it is, and it has been settled it into its ‘secondary role’, there’s greater space for gnossis and wisdom to emerge as a flow. Mind’s fear of its own corruptive capacities for ignorance subsides causing less and less trouble (i.e., paradoxes, existential confusion, suffering, etc). When fully conscious, Truth consistently informs the mind of its own limitations as a bifurcator, useful for distinguishing/comparing/coordinating things, ideas, etc “in the world”. It can be a wonderful tool in that regard. The mind gets into trouble with its musings and imaginings when it accepts (as truth) that it can have agency beyond its own limited capacities, at which point it becomes a terrible master.

Yes, rationality and logic (both born of the mind) can lock one in. Typically, the only way it doesn't get lost and doesn't lose its clarity is when it is informed of its tool-like capacity, absolving it of its leadership role. After all, "mind makes for a wonderful tool, but it is a terrible master". In how I'd express it via mind, Truth is only ever SELF-evident and, as such, there is no objective reality, as Consciousness is simply Awareness' movement. While it's often a 'good idea' to just ignore peeps lost in their mirage, drinking up the sand of self, on occasion it might be just fine to throw a monkey wrench into the machinations of mind to see what happens. Similar to children, the willingness to 'try' will be met with something of a struggle, and the 'learning' is often the outcome of that trial-and-error. All good. One day, who knows, maybe the Great Letting Go simply happens, and one sees where many of the senseless struggles and all of the suffering came from. FREE, at last. Everyone is already home; most just don't GNO. It's a mindfield out there, hehe.

Why make such assumptions about another's supposed attachments? And then to claim to not be able to make sense of a post when it was obvious...

@ExploringReality Why make such assumptions about what an appearing other is not seeing after restating the same logic of what was presented in the prior post, especially after dropping the gadfly allusion?

@ExploringReality Always seemed that using words like connected, united, etc gave the mind freedom to unconsciously assume all sorts of nonsensical stuff like it/I can "do the 're-connecting' or 're-uniting' with SOURCE/INFINITE/AWARENESS/etc", when it itself is just a mirage of separateness that needs to be seen through and understood for what it is. Mirages "don't DO anything" but appear and disappear, yet people go out and drink sand over and over and over ad nauseum, and then wonder why they suffer and/or still 'feel' thirsty. It's Greek tragio-comedy to the Nth degree: purddy sad and purddy gadflydamned funny.

@Hojo Turn it around. DNA is within God/Infinite, as is every other perceived thingy. Whatever is perceived is impermanent. A wake up call is when it is noticed that the mind is a perceived movement, and cannot be present prior to itself. The mind doth protest.

Right, identification is a mind construct. If what the mind is looking for is THAT, which is actually prior to the movement of mind, then it is closer than close, and it is the dominance of the mind at work in the feeling that you're 'not close to THAT/THIS'. Mind you (hehe), it's OK to interact with/via the mind; indeed, one must to play along in the world. It's just that it has ideas about separation from THAT/THIS which, if believed, are at the core of suffering and all the shenanigans of the search. Even the belief of already gnossising THAT/THIS is still mind play, which is why Realization is a necessary gateless gate to pass through. The real fireworks of the mind play is when someone gets a woo woo experience (misconstrued as 'waking up'), and the mind takes credit for it, identifying itself as enlightened. Lots of silly stuff plays out. It usually takes a heavy dose of authenticity and self-honesty to work out the kinks, hehe. Simply THIS, with every thing appearing.

I do like your balanced approach and the wisdom you provide for others to attempt (hopefully) to rise above the level of (the) conflict.

@Ajay0 https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/india-china/334-thin-ice-himalayas-handling-india-china-border-dispute https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/india-pakistan-india-pakistan-kashmir/pulling-india-and-pakistan-back-brink Case(s) in point...

That's purddy dang good.

Okey dokey. But do not think for a second that India's ₹1.5 lakh crore sent to Russia and India's formal neutral stance toward the war are not contributing to that war. Yes, I understand that India 'needs' the oil and gas for its billion+ population and wants to maintain a reputable military, but do not claim that India is simply above it all. It's very shortsighted. "There is no guarantee that you or the other westerners ANYONE here will be alive the next moment." "it would obviously be hypocritical on their part to advise the rest of the world" - Yes, hypocrisy is a weird one, and often comes back to bite one in the ass. Irony is funny that way. But, it is also possible that people can learn from past mistakes, remain somewhat balanced, and be in a position to potentially share words of wisdom, at least in theory.

That's fair. Having lived in various parts of Asia for over two decades, I agree that most Europeans and Americans have a hard time understanding the mindsets and cultures of what's at play. Without interacting with others with different mindsets and world views, it is very hard to put oneself into their shoes... much less walk a mile in them. The rest of it is fair to say also. It is the ongoing convo that world democracies should be involved in, more honest about, and more transparent with. If we look back and truly see the outcomes and events of last 50-100 years, what can we change about our present states of mind that will bring about a greater potential... I try not to oversimplify, nor get too 'lost in the weeds' of every detail. There's always a sense of futility to it, but forward we must go.

@Ajay0 It might be best to approach these convos with a less defensive and/or more balanced perspectives. After all, it's pretty easy to point out the bloodshed, injustice, and utter failures that have happened on every continent and in every country, India included. It's great that India is rising and taking a more active role on the world stage, but it also needs its citizens to hold its leaders more accountable. I am not saying you are wrong in every way per se, but as a general overall critique of your posts, you seem to be quite biased and quick to deflect. There are many reasons India is rising, and with more power comes more responsibility. Case in point, if India wants to start a war with Pakistan, put ALL the blame it can muster on that one country and its people, push the region to an ongoing state of brinkmanship (with military forces indoctrinated with the hope of destroying each other, and billions and billions of rupees being spent on military rather than providing water, education, social support, etc, welp, India and its people will have to take responsibility for that strategy.

@Ajay0 You can introduce all the anecdotal evidence to support any argument you want. I've seen those nets in use throughout SE Asia since time immemorial. Plus, if finding fishing nets in southern India is indicative of some 'extensive trade relations' that could counter the ideological and cultural differences of the two civilizations, I'd be impressed. Most of India and China's relationship and 'alignment' is based on the expeditious and mutual need for partners in trade, and that's fine and dandy.... it's basically strategic competition. But, you cannot deny that their mutual relations are mostly periodic, at best.

Most of the 'peace' between India and China can be attributed to that relatively very VERY MASSIVE mountainous region that separates them. This is larger macro version of the 'disputes' you might see from one simpler valley culture to another throughout history. There's a degree of 'peace' between the two countries for now, sure, but it has its potentials when it comes to water and ideology. On that latter note, there is a rather massive difference between the two regions on opposite sides of the Himalayas, which has always been kind of a cool set of comparisons and contrasts to tinker with. An interesting case in point might be the Tibetan culture that has been slowly decimated on one side, while thriving in communities/regions on the other. Furthermore, such 'peace' is not for the smaller cultures that have attempted to coexist with the larger more monolithic enterprises of the Han Chinese or the now-flexing right-wing Hindus. Many of them have either collapsed or are struggling to maintain themselves. Most of this is identity-based stuff mixed with empire/war that has been going on for millennia, and not necessarily of speerchal search stuff that is expressed here on this board... that generally gravitates toward WHY people feel the need to subjugate and/or fight perceived otherness. Indian leadership has the potential to emerge as a balanced, leading force in the region. I hope they can rise to the occasion, but there are many stumbling blocks on the path now. One of those stumbling blocks could include whether or not to support and/or align with Putin/Russia via oil&gas and military kit sales and/or cooperation. The world will be watching, regardless of however much its own citizens have come to believe in and support the measures for national security.

@BlueOak Well, to be clear, I wasn't saying the border itself is the 'reason' people fight, but that the process and subsequent use of religious and identity (us vs them) to promote more psychological division was. As for trying to nail down the specifics of why certain cultures and/or regions tend toward violence or cooperation, it's a complicated one. Having spent years teaching international language, intercultural communication, and cultural dimensions as a study, I do have a decent sense for the nuances at play. The comparisons of contexts do not typically line up in very linear ways, to be sure. Just to get a sense of it, I typically refer folks to Hofstede's cultural dimensions as it is usually one that people can grasp more immediately. Then you have to look at education, historical context, outside influences, individual agencies acting within the given power structure, social 'level of consciousness', geographic size, and all the rest. Even beginning to have a closer look at the size, enormity, regional differences, social stratification, massive diversity, etc within India almost immediately begins to boggle the mind. As I have spent a majority of my own time in the north, and mostly in the Himalayas (mountain folks are quite different than the plains folks), I do not have a strong feel for the mind of Southern Indians, whom I have found myself living amongst here where I am now (mostly software professionals living abroad). From what they have told me of changes in India in the last decade or so alone, it is almost as if the India that I experienced in the 1990s and early 2000s no longer 'really' exists. Anyway, back to the main point, but with this latest aspect as an example of the upheavals at play. I'm not condoning them or giving them credence in their own right, but just acknowledging potential nuances. In India, there has always been a flavor for diversity, perhaps due to centuries and centuries of a culture founded upon the pantheon of Hindu gods (much like Ancient Greeks would have experienced) along with waves and centuries of Muslim, Buddhist, Jain, Christian, etc thought and influence. The area now known as Pakistan would have been quite similar in that regard prior to 1948. The area is home to Indus Valley civilization, the Gupta Empire, Merghar, Kashmir Shaivism, Gandharan Buddhist culture, etc, so it's quite easy to see that. I saw the the relics everywhere, some even defaced, whether it be centuries ago by a wave of humanity prevailing at the time, or since the Partition with the advent of a predominantly Islamic form of government. But, the fact remains that monotheistic religions have a very different flavor or social cohesion, regardless of how different the sects may be within the branches of that religion. For example, the codes of law written 'typically' carry more weight and there is a stronger adherence to core principles that 'bind identity'. In a way, the Hindutva arm of the BJP sees a potential for implementing and establishing a similar exclusive mentality under the banner of a 'Hindu nation', which seeks to promote and enshrine the leadership based on that identity (which is historically at odds with and has been subjugated by a Muslim leadership in the past for hundreds of years). Way too many details to go into here, and with many shades of grey. I'm not going to go on and on, but it is a fascinating region and time in history for the people of the region. Unfortunately, many of the points you and others here have alluded to in your posts are playing out as the complex, almost quagmire-like phase the region is in due to the forces at play in modern governance (see global far-right movements, market share mentalities of religions, military industrial complex, collapsing educational systems, the use of AI and the impacts it will have on labor markets, etc). We do live in interesting times. Very very interesting, indeed.

@TheGod She may be using such terms to distinguish some flavors of how/why people search, but without acknowledging that any honest 'path' is about transcending AND including, much like the 10th Oxherding dealio. As such, once her rendition of such a "Masculine Path" is realized, impermanent appearances can be embraced, played with, experienced fully, enjoyed, etc without all the baggage born of ignorance that gives rise to suffering. That, I guess, is what she means by "Feminine Path". Could be wrong... After all, what are such 'illusions' when seen for what they are...

@eliasvelez He was a VERY cool, dude. He exhibited a rare humbleness. His physical presence will be missed, but the spirit of his expression in the world will live on.

The problem is that the region lived as an integrated whole for thousands of years until the partition in '48. Sure, there have always been attitudinal differences, but they were worked out as communities, again, have done for thousands of years. The division along geographical lines were mangled and of course that was turned into an all out 'reason' to hate and be bitter towards one another. Now, there's religious fervor and strong tools for psychological manipulation on populations still struggling with varying degrees of basic survival and upward mobility. We have a far-right BJP, heavily influenced by the Hindutva, firmly in power in India, and a Pakistan bordered by a war-ravaged and failed state of Afghanistan and an Iran with a religio-political leadership that seems bent of antagonism of anyone they can. Then, there is the one border crossing with China, who is now all but given up on its 'investment' in Pakistan due to the current turmoil. That said, they likely won't pass on creating difficulties with India as they still have border disputes to contend with there, as well. None of this, really, has a lot to do with the people of those countries, some of which ate the coolest, most down-to-earth and most memorable I've ever met (that goes for India and Pakistan, as well). The type of Islam that prevails in Pakistan has nothing to do with Wahhabism. I think you would know that. Other than in areas closer to the border with Afghanistan up near and north of Pashtun/Khyber/Peshawar and in the Balochistan (also bordering Iran), 80% of the people I met were mostly quite moderate, and were not all that impressed by such deeply fundamental sects like Wahhabism, even considering them 'foreign' to them. While the corruption at the top of political life allows for extremist elements and ideological thinking/activity, there will always be a need for a public enemy that can be used to rally support and blind the masses. Most of this recent blow up is based on scoring political points and may/likely pushes the region to more ongoing brinkmanship that a MASSIVE majority of people on both sides will suffer from. Meanwhile, the corruption, human rights abuses, and blame run free... perhaps will small incremental changes toward 'better'. India is the most powerful country in that sub-continental region, but they tend to squander the power in expressions of mite, rather than lead by example. That's likely because in recent decades, India has started to come into their own, yet have not quite found their footing as leaders. That is, I do think that Indian leaders could be a better force for the 'good' than what they have shown the world thus far. It's complex stuff, to be sure. Having spent 5-6 years in South Asia, that's my 2 rupees on the situation. Jai Ram and Insh'Allah it works out. I love that region of the world, and wouldn't mind even retiring there someday. It will always have a place in my heart.

@Davino Thanks for taking the time. I don't know that many of the posters here and I see you pop up quite a bit as a moderator, so I was wondering your take. You've explained it well. Would you say that the POV presented is one based on Realization, or a conclusion based on evidence, perhaps from even mind blowing experiences. I'm not being picky or proddy, just curious. In your latter post, I rez with most of what you say, but might just express it in a similar-but-different way. For example, I might express it without ideas of reuniting anything. That is, ALL appears in/as the movement within NOTHING/Stillness, and the mind, the bifurcator, is part of that movement. NOTHING is unexplainable. Everything is a mystery. Coolio.

@zazen Aces. Thanks a lot for helping verify that it's not verified, hehe. Yeah, once these hyper-iased counter-narratives start to roll, it's hard to keep up. I'm with the kid, and yes, it's nice to see someone that young taking a balanced view. And Bihar is renown for being one of the poorer per capita states (if not THE poorest) in India, so it's great to see a sharp young'un from there not taking too much of the bait. Thanks again, good sir.

@zazen If you have time today, could you find if there's actual validity to the Kirana Hills nuclear leak? -TIA

@Davino Having read in your signature "In this steady life GOD is available; via 5-MeO-DMT", would you say that "GOD is available" prior to taking 5-MeO-DMT and THEN experiencing its causal effects on the mind's perceptions? I'm curious about your distinction between Truth (eternal/timeless, infinite/acausal, etc) and experiencer/experience (time bound, dependent on mind).

@PolyPeter With respect to Truth, how would you go about facilitating/explaining/teaching/promoting being prone to... futility to 'another mind'? Real question, I'm curious. I've found that every mind goes through the night and gets the wake up call in a different way, sometimes radically different. And then, once the awakening has happened (IF it has indeed happened), all kinds of strange and odd things are exhibited as 'their mind' comes to terms with what ACTUALLY being awake is. This is often the case with folks who rely on psychedelic experiences too much to inform their clarity. That is, it's not so much about experiences, but about how the Realization informs the mind, and there is a substantial distinction. There's often a tendency for the mind (as an unconscious momentum of sorts) to want to 'get/take credit for' or 'take control of' the Realization, so to speak,,, at which point, they may be in the process of, or, they've already 'fallen back into the dream'.... unable to discern being awake IN the dream or FROM the dream. Convos on whether or not that phenomena is at play have a tendency to get a little uumm, feisty, if ya know what I mean, hehe.