_Archangel_

@Nivsch The second itfifada lasted atleast 5 years, 2002 was just a part of it. And the total result is always more civilians casualties then combatants. I never said Israel should sit and wait to be attacked. The problem is that we have arrived to this situation mostly because of what i wrote above. Whenever the most powerful in the reagion make it habitual to kill civillian like rain in the hope of chopping down some terrorists, something has gone wrong. I don't have a solution, i just know bombing a whole territory over and over has proved to be ineffective. The point is, Isreael never had the nuanced, sophisticated and compassionate level of strategical thinking that was needed to solve the contentions with its problematic neighborhood. And this is reflected in poeple like you, who use "they can't do anyting else" as an excuse for all that it's happening, without understanding that errors were made and errors and actions birthed from those errors must be condamned, as mush as any terrorist attacks must be condamned. Israel current actions will backfire, like it always had happened, bringing forth an endless cycle of suffering for everyone, until a more advanced leadership will take power.

@Nivsch Doesnt matter the aim. The premise is always to defend Israel, the result is brutality. And brutality isn't surgical. Yes and it is shameful. Israel answer? they "cut the grass". Israel problem has always been its comprehensible belligerant bias and its inability to solve problems in any way other than bombings and police abuse of force. --------- @Danioover9000 what? what do you mean?

@Danioover9000 = The suffering of palestinians and Israelis will continue for a rather long bit i'm afraid

@Nivsch Second intifada / 2014 operation - are this a better example? yes, let's call it a "loose" occupation Killing thousend's of civilians is always despicable, no metter if offensive or difensive. Funnily enough, the scope of the casualites of the recent are certainly not symmetrical, but that's because the Israel Military is completely out-doing Hamas in terms of devastation.

@Nivsch intelligent and surgical operations like Sabra and Shatila? Or the occupation of the west bank territories? You would like to paint Israel as the country that unfortunately isn't. I'm glad you seem to concede that the ongoing response hasn't been surgical. Do you realise that your line of thinking can be applied to justify hamas aswell?

@Breakingthewall This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel's response is autoritarian regime-level.

@Breakingthewall Yes, war is war but war is also justified with something called propaganda. This is utter BS. Whenever a vastly superior military decide to basically destroy a community there is always atleast 1 other way they are deciding to ignore. The fact that they were brutally attacked doesn't suspend Israel from their moral obligations, and their answer was "vengeance". That's fine, but then they souldn't be surprised when the whole world look at them in scorn. Call it war. But it is simply isn't true there isn't any other way the could tackle this. And even if there weren't, they would be be responsable, given how they handled the situation through the years. Don't spread this "there is no other way" BS.

@bobby_2021 I meant Us as "us", we, the collective. Not America. As i wrote earlier, the reason for the magnitude of the Palestinian conflict are to be found in the split and support to either one of the two sides involved. Anti-semitism is a factor, but most decent poeple criticise Israel based on their handling of the situation in Gaza and in the West Bank. Their operation and intentions are highly criticizable, independently of Ethnicity and Religion. And this is a position shared by many moderate Jewes and Israeli citizens.

@Vrubel Yes, but notice how what you just wrote can describe what part of the ruling class in Israel think of Paestinians. Don't portray Israelis as harmless lambs who have the whole world against them for no reason. As i wrote above, reasons are evident for disliking israel operations.

@Bobby_2021 Just explained to you. The Israel-Palestine debate is more wide-spread in the west because the media and the public is divided. Division create discussion. Put in the mix Antisemitism and Islamophobia and you have a bomb. We are so invested in it because, in a sense, this conflict talks about Us, westerners, and our internal political and social conflics. If you dig, you're going to find many condamnations of Saudi Arabia, but it just doesn't add up because public opinion generally agrees they're bad. Never said nor implied. Nevertheless, i think it was to be expected judging how they've been handling the sitation down there through the years. ---------- @Vrubel Antismitism is surely a thing in the west and not only. Urban myths and strange theories have contributed to the discrimination of Jews and Israel over the years for sure. But you also have to consider that poeple might be mad at Israel because they don't find it right to bomb houses and hospitals just because potential terrosist might be down in some tunnel. Jew have been often ostracized and hated but this shouldn't morph into a the victim card that you play whenever you are accused of something. I've always witnessed plenty of critiques regarding these topics. That the Saudis do not seek destabilization si arguable. Every time you participate, even indirecticly, to a war you are destabilizing the area.

@Bobby_2021 The logic is that usually Pro Pal. are pro Yemen aswell. The difference is that Palestine is a more heated topic in the West cause of the Israel support crushing with the support for Palestinians. Everyone hate Saudi Arabia. Easy.

@QandC This is common. What is basically happening is that you are disingaging/unhooking from worldly rules, morals, obligation, authority. Imagine a child that is taken away from his mom while he's still in the process of sucking from her breast What is going to happen is that you will naturally start to become you own authority. In other words: when you realize life is meaningless, it's ultimately Good because you can start to create your own meaning. My advice is: when you are ready, cut the stuff you feel you are annoyed by, keep the things you genuinely like to do. Because you will find that even in this ocean of nothingness there are some things you naturally gravitate towards. It's desires that made you incarnate, identify tham and fulfill them. That's the game. Change your life according to your inclinations. So it does bother you. There is always going to some deeeeeeeep programming that serves the purpose of not making you act like a madman. Because of survival, you're going to see that it's easy to act out of common sense. There is simply stuff you cannot avoid doing unless you want to harm your body-mind. Which is not something you want if you live anywhere there are scraps social constructs (ex. You follow the queue at the supermarket, exacly as you did before).

@r0ckyreed Which again, is not the same as telling other poeple to do so.

@r0ckyreed Leo never taught to live as if death is imaginary, quite the opposite infact. This is a fantasy of yours. Don't confuse investigation of Truth with a prescription on how to behave in day-to-day life. Conventional life is lived by conventional rules. Even if death is imaginary, that doesn't mean you should go jump from a building. No one is denying that "death is something that is inside the Universe". This is true, in relative terms. When Leo says Death doesn't exist, he's not negating the concept. He's saying you are imagining the concept, And there is no real concrete reality where this process is gripped upon. Hope this clear it up.

@r0ckyreed Is exacly because you don't distinguish between Abs. and Rel. that you don't comprend the teaching. To say that " Stallone wil die" is true in the relative day-to-day domain, but it false in the absolute domain cause Stallone doesn't have inherent existence, all he is is a character in this infinite stream of existence. You are imagining his consistency. You are imagining your consistency. ------- It's years now that i'vs seen you coming up with this topics, and the leit-motif is always this misunderstanding. Nothing has inherent existence, no separation. no will of its own. Every object that appears in your experience is perpetually sustained by a process of immagination. Including the concept of death.

@rnd Don't fall into the trap of thinking every country has the same level of developement. Authoritarian is a step back of Democracy. Here in Italy we had what Russia is having a hundred yers ago. And no, Democracy doesn't mean heaven. it can be pretty corrupt. But is better then whatever Russia is today. And no, Covid wasn't just a little flu virus.

@Danioover9000 good stuff you're smokin' eh When did i ever implied 9/11 was a hoax? i'm just saying that Al Qaeda didn't attack at random. There were reasons. But if you just look at the attack with pre- and post- knowledge you cannot possibly guess the why's. I repeat. Data are important, but they must serve the big picture, othewise there is a risk of useless and endless arguing about minutia.

@zazen thank you. I would add 2 things: 1 - It seems to me that Israel has been great in mantaining perfect ties with western Elites, resulting in them being pictured as the good guys in the middle east (national news, journals talk shows, but is diliked more that ever on the street, by poeple. With Russia (or better, ex USSR) is the exact opposite. Hindered by the mainstream, but moderally supported by a significant chunk of the population expecially in european in Left cirles. I think this has to do with the fact that now internet propaganda is massive. So much footage caused poeple to take a big turn away from Israel and Israelis don't know how to counter this if not from above. Instead, when the USSR was a thing Leftist, supported them, if not because of shared values, for a blind opposition to US values. All of this spilled over to today's Russia. 2 - Some suggest the future wolrd order is going to be a-polaristic. The economic dimention is becoming more and more important, and further developements will make almost every country leader in some aspect of trade. (oil, sectorial technologies, third sector abilities, banking). This way most countries won't be totally subgected to a regional power.

@Danioover9000 Maybe i didn't explain myslef clear.... I don't mind the analysis of isolated events. But it becomes a problem when it is the only way you make sense of a situation. And that has been the trend of this sub lately. The big picture is more important in this case. It's like 9/11. A plane didn't fall from the sky for no reason. there were hundreds of reasons. But if you just look at the towers falling you are going to have an incomplete picture.

@Danioover9000 That's why i said we shouldn't come to conclusions right away. How can you be sure Israel spreads MORE propaganda? How do you mesure? It's not like we're running short of pro Pales/Hamas propaganda online. Hard to say which one spread more. You can't compere a single human with a 100 years of Israeli government. You can't make sense of the big picture just looking at single events, expecially if they are countless and date back to the origin of time. I'm just saying fixation over minutia is never helpful.

@zazen Shock value is always the way to change uneducated and deeply biased minds. I agree. My post was directed to those who aspire to have a more nuanced pov over the situation. The risk here is dumbing down the conversation too much tho. Propaganda conversation. Not knowing exacly what's happening you jump to conlusions in fear that the other do it quicker then you. There is already too much of that. Again, i was writing from the pov of someone who wish to understand better the dynamics of the conflict.

@Danioover9000 To learn from every sources, but being able to descern the truth and the agenda. The answer isn't to spread more propaganda. I'm all for being conscious of what's happening on the field, but too much of that leads poeple to reinforce their biases, deafening critical thinking. Arguing about a single isolated event is useless. Not at all. I think we should back away because we risk to judge a hot event with rushed conclusion. Remember all the poeple that rushed to conclusion over the early hospital explosions, not even a day after the facts.

@B222 It basically means that what we call "matter" is a product of action of distinction that can only be mental. Whenever you disinguish between 2 things, that's mind at work. So, when you distinguish between mind and matter, that is a mental distinction. This means that matter doen't really have inherent existence and only depend on the mind that create it. A night dream is a mental production. But the waking state is too, in the same way, a mental production. And so is every object you can distinguish, including You. IMPORTANT: Some of these mental production run so deep into the fabric of existence that they becomes unmoveble pillars that cannot be bended in the normal sober state. (ex. night and day, gravity, Time-space, etc.) Watch som of Leo's episodes in the Metaphysics playlist and things will become clearer.

One of the biggest problems i see on this topic is that poeple over concentrate on posting clips, videos and chronicles of isolated events of either side supposedly doing evil shit, in an an attempt to make the other side look evil. I think instead that the focus should be on detecting the broader sistematic issues that have their roots in the historical context of the region, and still have repercussion on both Israel and Palestine today. This should make the discussion more fruitful, because counter-intuitively, the more you go back in contemporary history the less subjected to interpretation an event is.

@hundreth i rewatched a peace and i realized was to harsh. Nontheless, Destiny thinks that if palestinians would suddenly become non belligerant than this would be an advancement to peace that would benefit them, to wich i don't really agree to. And the idea that palestinian civilian should reject hamas and embrace moderation may be good on paper but impractical for multiple reasons.