Vrubel

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Posts posted by Vrubel

  2. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    33 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

    He said when asked does Israel have the right to exist, that Israel has the right to go fuck itself. 😂😂

    Wow, such wisdom such class. The fact that you get off on that tells me more about you. 

     

    31 minutes ago, Nemra said:

    And war doesn't end with red. What do you think nationalists do?

    Most countries in the world are stage blue nationalists and they rarely fight with each other in today's world, let alone in high intensity. Russia is an exception here though their form of government is stage red maffia-like. Still, 90% of today's world warfare and deep instability is found in stage-red societies. Again, I have the whole Middle East as proof. Including the 99% of it that has no Jews. 

  3. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    21 minutes ago, Nemra said:

    I don't think saying that they are less developed means that they need to be killed.

    I never said that. What an insane strawman.

    However stage red does cause constant war and instability. That's just a fact, I have the entire Middle East as proof. Also the cartels in Mexico and the gangs in Brazil. Civilization and functioning society start at blue. 

  4. Posted

    2 minutes ago, zazen said:

    Asians, Latinos, and Eastern Europeans didn’t just waltz in and integrate smoothly either though. Most immigrant groups have been discriminated against. The Chinese were called the "Yellow Peril," Italians were "wops," Irish were "micks." People said they were dirty, lazy or criminal.

    Propaganda will want you to think every Muslim is one burka away from a rape spree when most sexual assaults are committed by someone the victim knows. 

    Is it "Western values" when Catholic priests fiddle kids? When Hollywood big shots treat actresses like personal fuck toys? When politicians are grabbing pussies? Perhaps thats different because they wear suits instead of robes.

    The context of poverty, marginalization and trauma are left out of the statistics. A lot of migrants are from war-torn homes, stuck in ghetto-like conditions, denied work or dignity - and we act shocked when some snap.

    Europe wasn’t some rape-free paradise before the scary brown people showed up. Catholic Church scandals and charming British aristocrats and their "traditions" at boarding schools exist. Rape is about power, not passports. Crime and rape aren’t imports but depraved acts fostered in a Petri dish of horrid conditions.

    I get it, there is a nuance. This is a complex touchy topic. But it's also way less romantic than you think. Many of them are just stage-red people who come from a strict environment to a very free and lax one, get bored and commit crimes. This is especially true for the youth as they might wise up when they mature. But none of this "poor oppressed people snapping due to the sheer weight of the injustice they receive in the hell of their Swedish Ghettos". Many just lack basic values, principles and gratitude for their host country who took them in. 

  5. Posted

    8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

    Considering most of them are Europeans it makes sense. They are not Middle Easterns :D

    That's factually false but whatever gets you off. 

    Lots of people fit into Western society that's the beauty of it. It's very open and cosmopolitan. Most Asians, Latinos and Eastern Europeans integrate perfectly well. There is this one group though who lives by completely opposite sets of values and needs to take special classes on why it's not okay to harass or rape women when they're dressed in a sexy manner. 

  6. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    19 minutes ago, Nemra said:

    So, let them die there?

    I'm not saying that Palestinian lives matter more than those of Israelis, and vice versa. But they are in a much worse situation, and it's getting even worse.

    I want to understand why you think they are less entitled than Israelis.

    Israelis also can't just settle in whatever country they want. Though Israelis fit better in Western societies than Palestinians. 

    The most logical country to take the Gazans in is Egypt as they share a border but they don't want that for some genuinely understandable reasons. They won't all die there, at some point, this war will be over and their population will continue to grow exponentially as it has done in the last 70 years.

  9. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    5 minutes ago, Nemra said:

    Before saying that, understand why people migrate.

    I understand. Poland took in Millions of Ukrainian refugees while being tough on Middle Easterners, good for them. There are definitely gems among the Middle Eastern refugees but it's not worth upending your society by importing them en masse. It's extra absurd because they don't directly border with Europe and for example, can go to Turkey or their brothers in the oil-rich countries. 

  11. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    Good, now apply that logic to your Palestinian neighbors.

    Yes, I never denied their right to identify as the Palestinian nation even though how blatantly artificial that identification is (as a very recent reaction to Zionism by the local Arabs/Syrians) I actually respect that and recognize that as valid. However, there are other issues that make it hard for me to respect Palestinians. This conflict would be 80% less vicious if the Palestinians were solidly blue.

  12. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    What was the reason for the Aryan identity?

    Oh please, Israelis and Nazis are dimensions apart. Every nation including Germans has the right to self-identity and to defense of their culture and way of life. This is necessary for society to function and for people to have genuine love/a connection to one another and feel connected to the advancement of their country. 

    Countries that get too much on their high horse on this issue end up like Sweden and doing serious damage to the cohesion and cultural fabric of their society. I actually find there is a certain wisdom in how certain Eastern European countries are for example tough on migration from non-western places.

     

  14. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    No current Jew would know about or care about that land if not for the Bible and its cultural import.

    Do you care about the land of your great granddaddy from 2000 years ago? No. Only if its in the Bible. A lot of land has changed hands in 2000 years and its water under the bridge unless you make a concerted effort to pump some epic meaning into it.

    But it's history. Jews were pushed around from place to place so they had to reclaim their native homeland. And you gotta admit, it worked. not every people would be capable to survive and eventually thrive in such conditions. 

  15. Posted

    5 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

    @Vrubel Hammas is not limited to a group of people, even if it was possible to murder all of them, the idea would live on, gaza is a "hammas producing environment" wether by a different name, something else will come again, coming back to my cancer analogy, hammas is a symptom not a disease. Even worse, the distinction between a hammas member, terrorist, palestinian and in the worse case muslim, is not that solid.

    Soldiers are coming back home believing they have killed terrorist s,"mehabelim", but who knows the individual history of every victim. Presumably the mosad does his share of intelligence work before, I don't believe that is so in this conflict.

     

    2 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

    Yes you are right, but the pendulum swings again, there have been many peaceful and prosperous periods in biblical times as well, followed by havoc

    Oke, I understand you. But don't be so neuroticly alarmist. As awful as the situation currently is, the flip side of the coin is that Israel is still doing fine. The economy is largely running fine, people continue with their lives and people are even still immigrating to the country. The news will rarely cover the positive things. I read recently that Saudi Arabia removed their anti-semitism and "anti-zionism" from their children's textbook which can be seen as a sign or symbolic move towards larger peace and integration into the region. Netanyahu will one day be gone.

  17. Posted

    10 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

    @Vrubel I didn't try to paint Netanyahu anything, I do see him as having a role in starting all of this, but it is out of his hands at this point.
    The picture of him as a chess master breaking his head over the matter is misguided, a more accurate picture would be him hiding in his guarded house and having everything that he puts in his mouth tested for poison. He let the dogs out, the IDF, backed by anger and aggression of a population that was growing in size over the years. newly recruited soldiers are sent to fight after completing a hasted training period, as if we are facing an all out war on all fronts like in the past, this is different now, where is the fire?

    When I was in Israel I spoke with both younger liberal types for whom the hostages are above all and the more older conservative types who view the removal of Hamas as primary. 
    I understand both. Personally I am more in favor to the first group but I just can't help understanding the more harsh second perspective as well. 

     

    24 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

    I see this as a deeper issue than the Bible because Jews were dominant here for many centuries until their most significant deportation in the 6th century.

    The right wing policy although isn't justified, is a karma result of a long term memory from what happened centuries ago, and actually not so far ago but from the 6th century and above.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

     The last 76 years of Israel's existence is by far the best time to be born a Jew on this earth ever in history. In the scope of human history, Zionism delivered justice to the Jewish people.

  18. Posted

    1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

    Hamas has no power over US media or politicians. The double-standard in America is squarely in favor of Israel.

    I feel if you'll visit Israel with an open mind you'll understand why. It's not all as nefarious as you make it out to be, even the opposite. 

     

    5 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

    @Nivsch Hey, please notice that you are talking in past tense, and I think what most people here are rightfully concerned about is what is happening right now, even trying to understand it using Netenyahu's actions or presumed strategies is not that relevant, I don't believe that he could stop the war if he wanted to at this point, the government is loosing it's power over the IDF, it is out of control...!

    I don't completely understand you here. 

    Like for me Ben Gvir was a nutcase before 7/10 and a nutcase after 7/10 but I am not painting Netanyahu all black even though I disagree with him a lot. As a history buff who likes to study war, I can definitely see the more overarching national defense logic Netanyahu is employing. 

     

  19. Posted

    4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    Well, all I can tell you is that you obviously have attachments on this whole issue. That's the elephant in the room which you are always trying to dance your way around.

    Until you confront that we can't really have a meaningful conversation.

    I never denied that. I am straightforward as can be. 

    I know that in an existential sense, nothing really matters when I die but as long as I live I'll have this deep attachment to Israel, who I consider my people and obviously, this makes me sensitive to the physical threats and unfair (media) treatment they face. 

     

  20. Posted

    56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    I have heard enough Israeli propagandists all over the news. Their bias is so strong it's commical to watch them talk. And it's obvious that these propagandists represent how the core of the Israeli government thinks.

    Right now, Israel is flooding the media with their propaganda. Paying people off, threatening people, twisting arms, bullshitting their way through this whole situation. It's clear as day to me because I have no horse in this race. I just observe it from the sidelines. Israel is engaged in lying, deception, and emotional manipulation. And the reason they do it so shamelessly is because they really brainwashed themselves into believing their are God's "children of light." That's the crux of this whole thing. When you brainwash people into taking the Jewish identity so seriously, this is the end result.

    Oke, I am sure you'll gaslight and shut me down by saying I am biased (like I am the only one) but I am definitely not seeing any of this. 

    It's clear to me who is the loudest and who is winning the propaganda war, defenders of Israel's truth are relatively rare, not the least for the obvious reason Israelis and even Jews are a relatively small nation. Israelis could match Aljazeera's propaganda by constantly releasing 7/10 footage but they are keeping most of it private and shelved out of respect for the victims and to not repeatedly retraumatize themselves. 

  21. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    Obviously this war was never necessary to get hostages back. The war was the goal. The hostages are mostly just an obstacle to waging the war and ethnic cleansing that the right-wing has wanted for 80 years.

    The reason it's impossible to deal with the right-wing Zionists is that no matter what, they desire to ethnically cleanse the land and take it for themselves. They literally want land instead of peace because they are so pig-headed they believe they are righteous and godly. Such people cannot reach compromise and are willing to sacrifice their own kind for their religous nationalist mission. They just use the hostages as a tool to get the domination they desire.

    The situation parallell's the Bush admininstration after 9/11. They wanted to invade Iraq with or without 9/11. 9/11 was just a tool for them to do what was in their heart all along. These ideologues are shameless and will use cheap emotional manipulation that comes from terrorism, terrorism which their own thinking, policies, and actions created in the first place.

    Jesus man, you're stuck. You don't know Israelis and their mentality. 

    @Karmadhi
    I am just glad that Noa Agramani and the other hostages are saved. Sorry, but I genuinely deeply care for my own and don’t unconditionally pamper the Palestinians like you do. Hamas has created this horror show of physical and psychological terror and it was nice to have a rare reason to rejoice during this war. 

  22. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

    During the Second World War there were huge resistance groups against the Nazis in the occupied countries. Examples being in Belarus, Poland, Yugoslavia. They would attack the German occupiers and the Nazis responded by killing thousands in repriasal attacks. Yet, people do not say "It is the fault of the resistance fighters for attacking Germans because that lead to the Germans killing civilians in response. The fault is on the resistance fighters not the Germans, because they knew how the Germans would react yet they still did it". Nobody says this. Germans are blamed and nobody says anything about the resistance attacks that triggered the Germans to massacre the civilians. Why dont you hold the same standard for Hamas?

    Just the latest in your long list of false equivalencies:

    Reprisal actions work like this: You have partisans in the forests or underground (as in secret) so I will gather a thousand random civilians and execute them in the hope of breaking the morale of the fighters and civilians. This is how it happened with Nazi reprisals against for example Yugoslav resistance or even the Austro-Hungarian reprisals against Serbian partisans in WW1. This tactic is so obviously crude and an absolute transgression that it cannot possibly be blamed on the Serbian resistance. This is a dimension removed from blaming Israel because your terrorist government purposefully held their hostages in exceptionally densely populated civilian areas. The Serbians did not employ the tactic of hiding among their civilians and whining when they got killed. Serbians are too proud for that. 

  23. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    44 minutes ago, hundreth said:

    We don't know what Palestinians knew and we don't know what Zionist leaders thought. Some of those quotes are disputed, but that's not a line of argument I care for... because I'm sure they did have these thoughts and some of the quotes are likely true.

    At the same time though, people are complex and so are their actions. For example, Arafat was originally one of the most hard line anti Israel fighters... he was the one who called for a single state that extends from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. And yet, he is also the Palestinian figure who was closest to reaching a peace agreement with Israel. 

    What we say and think in private is often very different from how we act when we're confronted with the world at large. Both Arafat and Ben Gurion are parts of a much larger machine.

    Good deep point: life is complex and not black and white. Everybody has good and evil inside themselves. And matters often depend on perspective and contex. 


    It's good to stand for the truth of the matter whether Palestinian or Israeli. However, the demonizations and relentless narrative mushing are only fuelling the conflict. Ideally, this whole thing would be moderate Palestinians and Israelis against the extremists within our own Society. But unfortunately, reality is much less rosy and more unromanticly harsh. If Palestinians were stage blue-orange I think they would get along with Israelis much better and see common values. They would also pursue their agenda in a more genuinely productive way. Just being a healthy stage blue (like for example the Kurds), that alone will do away with all the stage red riffraff and footshooting behavior.

  24. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

    I can easily flip the script and say "You dont fuck with Gazans" after October 7th attack. How would you feel about that? But I am not doing it.

    They fucked over Gazans most of all, thought their attack definitely did a lot of pain so they can consider that a victory in their savagely twisted mind.


    Let's say you have a burning hatred of Israelis and really don't care about them but have massive heart and endless compassion towards the Palestinians. Still, I would be so fucking mad at Hamas for fucking my beloved Palestinians over so hard and so unrelenting. Yet instead of this you just created this cult of blaming Israel for everything it does and doesn't do. You essentially hold the Palestinian people to the moral standard of human animals and Israel to an exceptional standard that the world has not yet known.
    I actually hold the Palestinian nation to a higher standard than this. I have this desperate desire of wanting to respect the Palestinian people because they are the ones whose fate got interwoven with the Jewish people, which actually could be a positive thing and ultimately should be. But we are still very far from that. 

  25. Posted · Edited by Vrubel

    1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

    @Nivsch

    Apparently they had to kill 200 civilians to get to them.

    It is good those 4 people are safe now but is it worth the price?

    Seems like too much to me.

    Not worth it.

    Those 210 are not less innocent than those 4 hostages.

    I understand Israeli citizens have priority over other nations but where do you draw the line?

    It is much better solution instead to just make a deal with Hamas and those hostages are released without force.

    Like the 100 last year were.

    Israel obsession to destroy Hamas even though that is impossible is the issue here.

    US urged them to do a good deal with them but they refused it.

    ISIS or Al Qaeda were never destroyed, they were just weakned to the point where they stopped being a threat.

    Hamas right now is not capable to be a threat. Biden said the same recently. 

    Even if you kill their top leaders in Gaza, someone else will replace them.

    Seems more like stupid revenge to me than anything else.

    No one in Gaza would have died if the hostages weren’t taken in the first place. You don’t fuck with Israelis. They will do anything for their own. Every government has a responsibility to its citizens. Hamas (purposefully) kept those hostages in an exceptionally densely populated area, so it’s on them for putting their civilians at risk. Like, it's obvious that these people die because of Hamas, yet I have to explain, go figure the absurdity.  

    All this is perfectly within integrity. Israel will do anything for life. Hamas will do anything for death. Don’t be a shill for that.