Vrubel

Oke, I am just the B-word and don’t at all have legitimate points and (deep) insights that are reasonable, fair and within my integrity. It’s so obvious you’re just agenda-pushing. To the extent I can have a reasonable discussion without repeating myself, I can engage you but at some point, this back-and-forth becomes useless and leads to lashouts.

My flight got cancelled due to the Iran tensions but I'll go a little later as soon as possible.

Just to to add (I know I am a bit late to the discussion) haha: You cannot be objective on the issue without taking into account the uniqueness of Jewish history and respecting the Jewish connection to the land as a native people. Palestinians too are native to the land. The question of nativity goes deeper because both Jews and Arabs are native to a wider region of the Middle East than Just Israel/Palestine. Though for reality reasons we are just limited to that smaller land precisely because it's untenable for Jews to live in that wider region or elsewhere for that matter.

Truths to not overlook in this discussion: Israel saved millions of lives and secured a future for Jews. Israel was established on undefined land. And the Jews have a damn good claim to it as well as stark necessity for their own state, which ultimately constitutes the bottom line. Most early Zionists were secular and socialist idealists who were desperate for peace, that spirit still lives on to a large degree in Israeli society. Israel has no inherent problem with Arabs, just look at Arab Israelis. Israel’s enemies are total savages in their potential for barbarity ( even compared with reasonable Arab governments which routinely make peace.)Israel must defend itself from that, there is no compromising on that. There is a vicious cycle and both sides are responsible for that. Israel deserves criticism (any Israeli will agree) but holding it up to some fairy tale standard and being intensely biased in the demonization of Israel is wrong. Ultimately the people that are engaged in the smear campaign totally dismiss the Israeli POV and practically don't respect their right for survival. Conveniently overlooking the history you don’t like and arbitrarily choosing from what position you want to start to best serve your agenda. (For both sides). The whole attitude of just blame-shifting on Israel instead of being constructive and deeply understanding. There are clear limits of how much you can blame on Israel. Hyperbolism is not truth but perversion and is just part of the demonization campaign. To avoid hyperbolism one must be true to (historical) context and similarities.

Nice lash out. A bit inappropriate as a reaction to an apolitical post with just informed insights on Jewish demographic with somebody who had a genuine question.

I am explaining to you why they are locked out from my compassion. It's their stupidity and depraved behavior. Everything in the world is technically understandable but there is a difference between understandable and understandable. I mean... I know some low-brow simple people that are capable of some cringe shit but holy fuck... cheering for such a thing seems to me like such a transgression against God and a layer-cake of brainlessness.

Orthodox Judaism was decimated in the Holocaust. Secular people who have few children, survived at a slightly higher rate because before the war they were more prone to emigrate to America or become Zionists and settle in Palestine. Also many lost their religion, secularized through generations or were forcefully secularized like in the Soviet Union. But high birth rates are exponential, so the few orthodox Jews that survived are now a substantial part of the Jewish population and continue to grow exponentially. In a sense, it does represent a beautiful rebound and victory over the Nazis.

Yes, there are truly innocent people in Gaza who just wanted peace or are too young to understand the situation. I can definitely respect and feel for an individual Palestinian but not for a random one because I don't know whether he rejoiced at seeing young abused girls paraded on pickup trucks. Civilians famously joined in on the attack and held hostages at their homes. Even UN workers! Ukraine is an impoverished place, Russians took Crimea from them. And historically the Holomodor was perpetrated by Stalin to feed Moscow over Ukraine. Azov and Hamas are oceans apart. Sorry, I am not going to be petty about any right-wing views they might hold. Azov is bravely fighting on the front lines demonstrating great virtue. Hamas is the antithesis of virtue. Even as war breeds hate most Ukrainians are sensible people and don't hold random Russians responsible. Palestinians have no choice but not to fight and instead to pursue their agenda in a pragmatic and healthy way. They have enough sovereignty and eminence to do that. Economicly they can benefit themselves greatly in being next to Israel. Their freedom of movement will also increase greatly without terrorism. A strong and wise Palestinian leader is to everybody's benefit. They can definitely get to some resolution with a center-left Israeli government. Gazans are not naive. They knew for what they were cheering. I of course don't know the exact number or percentage that was cheerful on that day. But from what I understand it was a substantial part. The streets were full of cheering people. And these were just random people that happened to be there. Aljazeera was also definitely rejoicing and full of glee on that day. Israelis cheering is a whole different dimension, they are not cheering for raped young women or killed innocent people. Israelis are patriotic and will support the troops who defend them. Israelis have no choice but to be strong and ready for war in contrast to Palestinians who as I mentioned have no choice but to be non-violent. That's just the uncompromisable dynamic at play. The law of nature if you will. Once you have to survive in a remote forest you can't argue or negotiate with nature, you bend to its will. 'Nature' being the dynamic of survival in the Middle East. This dynamic is more harsh to the Israelis than to the Palestinians. A large part of why they committed 7/10 is because they knew they wouldn't get genocided for it. Any standard Israel upholds is in their eyes just another weakness for them to exploit.

@Karmadhi The point is that we don't care. Once in a while there come a report of the situation there by first-hand accounts and international monitors and we all kind of shrug it off. The massive refugee camps filled with women and girls in neighboring Chad are definitely real and where much of the information comes from. Definitely mass rape and murder going on, nobody knows how much.

@DefinitelyNotARobot The Palestinian growth rate is definitely nowhere near zero. Having lots of children is a subconscious reaction to a perilous environment. Even modern secular Israelis have visibly more children than Westerners due to mandatory military service and terrorism. The champions of babymaking are orthodox Jews and Bedouin who have multiple wives.

Because Ukrainians don't commit atrocities, cheer for them and hide behind their women and children. They defend them! Only women and children are allowed to seek refuge abroad but the men must stay as they should. This is the way of any honorable society. Also I have family connections to Ukraine and my family housed our Ukrainian friends for a while. Ukrainians are incredibly “chill” people for the lack of a more sophisticated term. They were demonized by Russia as extreme while in reality they were just chill people caring about bettering their lives and country and having genuine amicable relations with ethnic Russians. Things like cheering on 7/10 had an incredible effect of dehumanisation. It’s a complex issue because dehumanization is wrong but you don't win respect with the brainlessness attacking, acting like total human animals towards peace-loving civilized people and hiding behind your own civilians who you are supposed to protect and hold in reverence. And they still hold hostages including babies and bright young women who are being sexually abused. In the simplest terms, Israel is justified in fighting as long as those hostages are still there and Hamas poses a threat.

@Karmadhi Don't play the extremely redundant numbers game with me. Stuff like mass rape, (sex) slavery and ethnic cleansing happing there. In neighboring countries there are refugee camps of over a million people of mostly only women and girls. An indication that the men have been targeted for extermination. Of course, a lot remains unclear because no journalists can go there and the territory is so massive, remote and underdeveloped that it's not really overseeable, those numbers might not be accurate. Also, the harsh truth is that most people don't really care. Western People don't care but also Muslim and African people don't care. Because again, no Jews. Where is the South Africa genocide case against the Sudan for their fellow Africans?

You jumped abroad on a certain high-speed train following a specific track, I don't know what you're trying to prove to yourself. But reason is not your track and truth is not the destination. This YT channel is a goldmine for opinions and views from everyday Israelis (& Palestinians): https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject/videos It's the next best thing from actually going to Israel.

This is the explanation that makes it add up. Israeli society is insanely diverse in terms of spiral stage, culture, ethnicity and religious belief. Most is moderate and reasonable but that does not make for sensational news, social media posts or propaganda. Only a zoom-in on a certain fraction will achieve the desired demonization and narrative-pushing and even then some twisting and stretching are required.

Undergoing the consequences of war as horrendous as they are, is not genocide. There is a real fucking genocide going on by Arab Muslims against African Muslims in Sudan but nobody cares about that because there are no Jews involved. This whole genocide thing is a farce and propaganda tool. Some good-hearted stage green people get mindlessly sucked in because they lack critical thinking skills. As somebody who grew up on stories of real fucking Genocide and WW2 from the Russian perspective the whole thing is just nothing more than a cutesy stage green trend like 'defund the police' while also serving as useful idiots for real genocidal maniacs and blatant hypocrites.

For sure man, I’ll actually live in the next town over from yours, so meeting up won’t be a problem. Without jokes, I am really into nature, especially passionate about plants and snakes.

That's not the point I made. I wrote what I wrote and don't twist that. I have nothing against Palestinians as a people, I wish for peace, and two states seem as the most reasonable solution. I have no issue discussing hard topics like civilian causalities rates in a respectful and reasonable way. But I don't get to that because I have to be defensive against all the lies you people spread.

What you’re doing is plain old atrocities denial, it’s pretty hypocritical behavior for the side that gets off on smelling its farts of moral superiority. Not everything can be mushed through your narrative so you have to resort to denial, backhanded tactics and finding a way of blaming Israel for the morbid stupidity and the depraved behaviors of others. What's new. If you don't care about that, that's fine but it would serve you more to not speak about things you don't understand so you won't blatantly expose your hypocrisy, ignorance and morbid disrespect.

I would say I take responsibility for the eroding of some global sympathy from reasonable people due to problematic policies and hard-right elements but that’s about it. Some people are just blind haters, they twist and stretch and mush everything through their narrative. It's impossible to take responsibility for that. There is no excuse or blame shifting for 7/10 full stop. And ultimately things like "image" and anti-semitism abroad are secondary concerns when securing your state and people. Are kidding me!? I’ll do everything in the world to save 50 Israeli children. I gladly will give my life for it. I wish The Palestinians viewed their people with the same reverence and did not use them as human shields or disposable pawns. Even if you don't care about Israelis being murdered, raped and kidnapped at least you should see how 7/10 has thrown the Gazan people under the bus and imposed the consequences of war on them. How convenient to shut people down who do not indulge in your prepackaged narrative.

I can throw this back to you but from the Israeli POV. Relax, I have another POV than you. I am not an unreasonable person and if you think I am then it's you who is projecting and lashing out at me for not being part of the hivemind

Same. I got the feeling I have to go hardcore on the defensive here because of all the falsehoods, twisting and stretching, hypocrisy and the agenda-driven hyperbolic labels. I am perfectly capable in acknowledging our own faults and recognizing the vicious-cyclical nature of it all and I don't expect people to share my worldview, some will be more cynical towards my people and that's fine but more often than not it crosses certain lines which I will not stand for. Even when I share something reasonable and peace-oriented I often get slammed down, so how can I have a reasonable and respectable objective discussion? I can't, It's too childish here. Btw from mid-April, I'll be in Israel so I can see the thistle bloom(;

This is so full of fallacies and a gross distortion of reality that I don't know where to begin.

WTF!? How is that "Lolz"? If Hamas lays down its weapons and frees the hostages the war will be over immediately. You basically behave like a standard teenage internet troll.

The Chatgtp version: In the meadow's arid grasp, where plants wither and gasp, Stands the thistle, bold and grand, defying drought's demand. While others wilt and fade away, its verdant hue won't sway, For the thistle, ever tough, in resilience, reigns each day.

If you find them beautiful, that's fine. But with all due respect, Palestinians are not doing a great job "surviving" given how they have thrown themselves at the feet of the Israelis by committing 7/10. If Palesestians lay down their weapons and release the hostages there will be no more war. If Israel lays down its weapons they will be murdered. If Palestinians wanted two states they could have waited for a center-left Israeli government that virtually always makes reasonable proposals. The thistle is a special plant, even when the whole meadow has dried up and all the plants are dying down, the thistle will still be green and going off.