Consilience

@Serotoninluv Thank you for your perspective.. That's a very good point. The distinction between tripping and sober is truly relative and one isn't more real than another. Perhaps I need to experiment with higher dosages... haha. I've stuck to moderate doses aside from one 4g mushroom tea experience which hit like a freight train. But that trip in and of itself wasn't really about awakening, bad set and setting. You're right. Much of what I wrote about is relative to the person, self. Even the notion of someone to embody it is hinged on self. It feels like there are qualities to enlightenment I assume are so, like equanimity, focus, tranquility, lack of suffering, which seem like states of a mind which has fully understood truth. However, I don't know if this is true. What I have noticed in my experience is that psychedelics don't seem to have this enduring mind effect I assume awakening will have on the mind. But this may be due to a lack of experience with these heroic doses. Welp thank you again for you input. You too, @TrynaBeTurquoise , even if I got a little feisty.

1) That post wasn't anti psychedelic 2) Expecting psychedelics to do the work for you seems to be what Leo is doing by forsaking all the other forms of consciousness work he's promoted in the past. 3) "You are never going to get around putting in the effort yourself. As a catalyst though, psychedelics are extremely extremely powerful for the person who wants to learn and put the work in themselves. " aka the psychedelic trip itself is not going to help you embody, aka horrible for embodiment, aka you're in agreement with what I'm saying so I don't really understand where the criticism is coming from.

Perhaps you miss understand what I meant by embodiment. " It depends how seriously you take the lessons learned in your trip and want to change your habits and how you want to approach life." The taking seriously of the lessons is embodiment, which takes place outside of the trip. It takes work. But this work is usually in the form of things like meditation, self inquiry, yoga, journalling, and otherwise sober activities. Embodiment isn't done through taking more psychedelics. The psychedelics reveal the work that needs to be done, they don't replace the work. That's been my experience. So when Leo talks about ONLY doing psychedelics, it doesn't really seem to imply he's doing the other work needed to stabilize those peak experiences as actual, sober embodied truths. "Maybe you havent done the right psychedelics with the right dosages in the right set/setting. Or maybe they just arent for you. In which case Leo is directing you to do other practices." Perhaps this is so. I've only done LSD, NN-DMT, and Mushrooms.

I think Leo’s approach to consciousness work feels a off. I am very appreciative that he opened up explaining that he no longer does formal spiritual practices such as meditation or Kriya yoga, in favor of psychedelics, but I think reliance on these substances is a limited approach. Perhaps its part of what he wants to discover/pioneer, which is that psychedelics alone can lead to awakening. Yet here’s a crucial element Ive found missing with psychedelics: while they’re fantastic for providing insights, they are horrible for embodiment. They provide these amazing sometimes horrifying sometimes ecstatic states of consciousness that facilitate wisdom, insight, and the expansion of consciousness. But! Once the peak ends, it’s more or less over. Yes there are residual effects, and lessons to take away. I don’t want to undermine their power or utility for this work. But they aren’t, in and of themselves, powerful enough to create lasting effects in sober living. How many times has Leo tripped? How many times have the individuals in this community tripped? Hell, Ive lost a mental count of how many times Ive tripped! And in my experience, these trips are only as useful as the work I put in while sober. If I dont take action to embody via mediation, yoga, sober contemplation, journalling, self actualizing without drugs, they feel pretty useless. Psychedelics dont help build my focus, calm my mind, build my equanimity, permanently increase awareness, or make me capable of facing hours upon hours of boredom. It’s one thing to face your physical death on a psychedelic. It’s another to face 10 days straight of doing nothing, and being so woke you dont suffer whatsoever from Boredom, boredom with a capital B so to speak. Being so woke that during those 10 does of absolute nothing, you’re joyful and completely fine. Just my 0.02. I have nothing but respect and appreciation for Leo though. He’s changed my life and Im glad he seems to be living his most authentic life. Plus I wanna know where the psychedelics only path leads! So thank you for pioneering Leo ??But for me, Ive realized psychedelics are only one piece of this work and a piece worth pursing yet not relying on.

Fosho. Meditation is like a meta skill that’s improved all areas of my life

Thank you for the update ?? Do you think 1 hour per day of meditation practice is really enough? What’s interesting is the more advanced I get with my practice (also using TMI) the more it feels like an hour isnt really enough. But sometimes with spiritual work more doesn’t always equal better. So my question, what are your thoughts on meditation volume? Is an hour a day enough in your experience or will eventually someone have to level up and do more?

You’re missing the point. The point is the lack of experiential insight despite the vast amount of intellectual knowledge.

You're correct, but this is the key. When they do understand, when they finally can make the distinction, an entire new range of possibilities opens up. I remember when I was in college, when I first realized this distinction, I had a huge epiphany that lead me down the rabbit hole of consciousness and spirituality. So when discussing this stuff with a materialist, literally point this out to them. "Until you understand the distinction I'm making here that you are not, you won't understand." Either they can open up to the insight or there's no point in continuing the conversation, but at least now the materialist has a more precise understanding of where the disagreement arises from. This may eventually be the seeds needed to have insight.

I've become conscious of the fact that free will is spontaneously generated... As strange as this may seem, this is what is occurring. I am spontaneously generating will in the moment, but the even weirder part is that this is precisely the same thing as no will at all. And in effect, I can observe both this odd manifestation of will as well as literally phase shifting my perspective into a position of no will and watch as reality seamlessly flows on without any doer-ship. At first I thought maybe this meant no free will was the equivalent to what Leo would call "meta." as per his latest video That the no free will was a higher truth so to speak. And perhaps, by virtue of the fact that everyone runs around thinking they have free will the alternative would seem more meta. But see, this isn't what I'm experiencing. What I'm experiencing *is* that this no will is the same exact thing as will. And that both are completely spontaneous experiences. If I really want to, I can continue to survive as a biological organism. If I really wanted to, I could literally do an infinite variation of behaviors. I can and constantly manipulate reality in all sorts of ways. Even when I'm sitting still doing nothing, I'm exerting a will, a manipulation onto reality. Free will is like taking Responsibility with a capital R. 100% Responsibility for understanding our influence in this life. Understanding that there is a very specific force inside our being that comprises our feeling of self (which is an entirely infinitely unique experience that only you are experiencing) and this force is not random, and completely Free. I'm not entirely sure how to write about with this free will is other than that it's not really a perception, persay... But I do perceive and acknowledge it within my direct experience. But it's a spontaneous presence. When I'm lost in thought and distracted, my body and mind are in autopilot mode. However, when I'm fully present and locked into my direct experience of Now, I see Will. And yet all of us can phase shift into no free will. This lack of free will is going on in your experience. It's not something to be believed but to be observed. Like literally, with just a change of resolution, you can relinquish your experience into one where total effortlessness, total flow is the driving energy behind your experience. Moreover, realize that this perspective is never not there. It's accessible at all times; it's essentially running your life at all times. Moreover pt. 2, realize that the perspective of free will is never not there either... And the no free will or free will are simply two different interpretations of the same thing; a thing our minds can't merge or deal with. So then what the hell is going on? What's going on is that free will and no free will are the same thing. You can see free will. You can see no free will. You can see free will and free will. You can see neither free will nor no free will. To put it in terms of Leo's latest video, there is a meta-structure of Free Will and No Will occurring wherein these two perspectives are content within a larger metaphysical structure. I invite anyone who's happened to read this thread to contemplate the matter for themselves and become directly conscious of what these words are pointing to. Just please acknowledge that these words are indirect and not to be believed, or taken literally while also being open to directly experience what I'm describing.

That's not what I see. Determinism is a mind a model of reality. It implies cause and effect, which is a function of time. Determinism, at least how I have conceptualized it throughout my life, is based on time. It's based on action, reaction, causes leading to effects occurring in a process oriented fashion. But this is not what's going on in reality if you look closely enough. There is no such thing as cause and effect, there is no such thing as time, and there's no such thing as determinism. There's also no such thing as randomness either. Determinism is based on the notion that reality is 'determined' but reality is completely causeless and free. But within this absolute freedom is an absolute lack of freedom too. Again, I'm not entirely sure how to explain it other than by saying I don't see determinism. I also don't not see it in the sense that I'm able to phase shift my perspective into no free will. So making the statement that determinism is what's going on misses the fact that determinism isn't occurring. And that's what I want people reading to directly experience for themselves. It's not only one or the other, it's both and neither. Being paradigm locked into "oh it's determinism" or "oh we have free will" misses the other side of the coin.

Here’s a very practical easy to follow example that demonstrates the limitations of science: Imagine you are a world class scientist who studies the color red. You’ve determined all the energy frequencies that emit red, you know all of the particular wavelengths a red photon can have, you understand the anatomical structures of the eye, what chemical reactions begin when the photons make contact with the eye, you understand the chemical messenger systems that begin in the optic nerve and travel to the brain. You understand completely how the brain’s state changes once red is carried along this nerve pathway, you understand which brain structures are activated and how they communicate with one another to process the color red. You understand it all! Yet this is the tragedy of your situation: While you may be a world class scientist, and you understand all the physical, chemical, and biological mechanisms of red, you’re color blind and can only see on a greyscale. See, despite all of you’re intellectualizing and scientific investigation of this specific light phenomena, you’ve still missed a crucial component to what red *is* existentially. You’ve missed an experiential insight into what red is that no amount of science can help you with. What this example demonstrates is that there are certain limitations within science and sometimes there are truths about reality which require a different form of investigation and a different form of insight than what science provides. If something as simple as “what is the color red?” cannot be solved by science, what other truths may be missing from the domains of science? This is how Id explain it to someone.

I was right where you were when I first found Leo’s videos. Highly recommend learning to meditate and learning how to contemplate. For either, Id recommend a book called The Mind Illuminated by John Yates and a book called The Book of Not Knowing by Peter Ralston. And when you’ve got a solid practice going and intellectual understanding of this stuff, highly recommend finding a way to do psychedelics. Though unneeded, those substances offer power glimpses into the radical nature of reality, your mind and this work. Welcome to the forum though I think you’re skepticism is great but don’t let it turn into a self deception. In fact, Id watch Leo’s skepticism video! And rationality video. Very foundational stuff.

I really like this post and it resonates a lot for me. I use resistance training and practicing using various compound lifts to connect with my body. I also informally practice yoga to keep everything supple. Both of these practices over the years (mainly resistance training) have had crazy effects on my body awareness, body control and mobility. Moreover, my body feels healthy, strong, and capable of supporting the intellectual work I need to do.

Ime as an INTJ and meeting/talking to other INTJs, this personalty type does a massive amount of questioning too.

Couldn’t agree more, thank you for the post ?? What I have to add is reality is as magical or un-magical as you want. It takes open-mindedness, surrender, genuine wonder and work to see the magic though, at least that’s been my experience.

I would 100% look into the book The Mind Illuminated. It teaches you how to achieve states of samatha through a systematic meditation practice. States of samatha are essentially extremely advanced levels of focus, which are extremely useful states to have when doing something like self inquiry or contemplating the nature of reality.

In a certain sense, yes the past and future exist now. From a certain sense no. From a certain sense, yes and no. And from another certain sense, neither yes or no. ?

I would tend to agree that everything spoken is ultimately a fantasy, interpretation, projection, representation, conceptual, etc., etc., but I can say from direct experience what people like Leo, Peter Ralston, Mooji, Rubert Spira, all these woke people, they’re all on to something. Ive had direct experiences of nothingness, infinity, but it’s not a perceptual thing, it’s not a mental thing. It’s literally nothing... but it’s the most significant fullest nothing you’ll ever encounter. At least that’s been my experience. I think you’re spot on though in that you cannot rely on what other people say. And in fact, filling the mind with a bunch of non dual philosophy and teachings seems to set people back on the path. Because the mind is so effective at coopting and projecting beliefs into experience... it’s all a balancing act. Theory can be very useful though because it opens us up to possibilities we may have overlooked. That all being said, practice > theory. Just make sure not to fall into the skepticism trap

The thing is, in the highest sense cause and effect are illusions and true randomness cannot exist. Everything that is, is NOW. No room for things affecting one another because literally everything is just spontaneously appearing and disappearing. Moreover, randomness is impossible; randomness implies things could be otherwise, but everything that is could not have been any other way. These two insights might not make much sense and I would agree a rational explanation is weak. Rather, Id work to become conscious of this, not reason to it. So here’s the predicament: free will doesnt seem to have a basis to stand on and yet cause and effect and randomness are both illusory. But it gets stranger. You’ll notice you’re able to shift your perspective on whether it feels like free will exists or not. That is to say, both perspectives may be observed. Watch as you walk and breathe and how it’s all happening automatically without your doing, but equally observe that you very much can seem to “take back control” of the walking, as if you had will. So what are we left with? The ability to take on a perspective wherein free will doesn’t exist AND a perspective where it exists. Both being relative, and potentially illusory but also potentially true. And the biggest mindfuck Ive continually observed on this topic: free will is both true and not true simultaneously depending on what perspective you’re observing the world through. If you make the distinction free will, you have it. If you stop making that distinction, you lose it and things still happen. Leo’s video on relativity explains this beautifully even though it isn’t directly on free will.

This. Another perspective to help actualize this truth: find the joy even in the suffering. Also this topic reminded me of a Rumi Poem The Guest House This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes As an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

Very similar experiences lately. Ive only been seriously meditating for two years now but one consistent theme is that the sessions oscillate towards feelings of freedom, peace, love, joy, etc. and then feelings of depression, lust, laziness, apathy, etc. It makes me feel bipolar sometimes, but... overall the trend line has been a positive direction. Anytime the negative stuff keeps piling on, I just have to acknowledge it’s not existentially me, and keep going. Just keep going. That’s part of the process of meditation Ive realized, is that this negative shit is literally being purged out of the mind. Eventually the ego will exhaust itself and conscious will continue its expansion. The worst thing to do in these situations is stop imo. Even if you need to lower your session time, very rarely would it be worth completely stopping imo.

Thank you for such a wonderful message ??

Really interesting post on Stage Coral. Probably the best explanation Ive seen... yeah reality can have some fucked up things.. and it’s our job to accept and love all of it, and that’s terrifying. I think you’re on to something, SD aside even. Thank you for sharing ??

First off, Im sorry to hear you’re going through it right now. But I have to say, the fact that you’re feeling this is a major sign of growth. At some point, we all have to confront the fact that existence is utterly meaningless and this can certainly lead to depressing states of mind. Why? Because the mind is literally a meaning making machine; you’re undermining the very mechanism the ego uses to sustain itself, so such negative emotions are to be expected. But hey dude great work. Couple of things to note though: The fact that life is ultimately meaningless is actually a double edged sword: the fact that you’re taking this perspective, this insight as negative depressing fact is itself meaningless. There’s is in fact nothing negative about this nihilism, the depression is more meaning being projected onto this fact. To be depressed is to only partially understand the meaninglessness. It’s only until you go full circle with meaninglessness do the negative emotions dissipate. However I do want to put a potentially positive spin on this Nihilism you’re discovering. Absolute meaninglessness is actually synonymous with absolute freedom. Think about it - life is utterly empty of meaning MEANS you can construct whatever type of life you want. Whatever passions you feel, whatever strengths you have, whatever imaginations you feel you need to actualize, you are completely free to walk that path. Any inherent meaning to life would actually inhibit our freedom and infinite possibilities of life. It could be said that this meaningless and freedom are so absolute that there is nothing to do in this lifetime except give your greatest strengths to the world and to your self. Sure, you’re completely free to be depressed, but you’re also free to live out life, actualizing you’re highest most authentic self. Both are perfect. However this is what Ive found has helped me the most when confronting this absolute nihilism - Gratitude (with a capital G) and Acceptance (with a capital A). Understand that this life you have, this perspective you were born with, these eyes you look out at the world with are the only opportunity reality will ever have to be The Don. Out of the trillions of organisms that have lived on this planet across time, reality decided it was time to be YOU. You are only ever going to have this single opportunity to experience life as you. Your life will be over in a flash, as if the universe were blinking. Understand and cherish this gift you’ve been given to see the world as The Don - your memories, your mind, your perspective, is all utterly unique unto you. You will never have this opportunity back. To be you was effectively a 0% chance, an infinitely rare chance, and yet here you are. That can be the source of your gratitude. Acceptance - understand that in the bottom of your heart, creation, existence does not make mistakes. Everything is perfect; all perspectives are “valid” through the eyes of God. Channel this Absolute Acceptance and understand that Being is accepting all that is being, and since you are ultimately at ground zero of this Being, you are accepting all that is already. Tap into this Acceptance not only with your mind but with your heart. Welcome all that is with kindness and compassion, and you will eventually stumble into the other side of this Nihilism coin: Absolute Infinite Love. Hope this helped brotha ??

How important is timing when it comes to these stages of attraction? Let’s say I meet and start out as friends with a girl that but when we first meet, she’s dating someone so you of course could only be friends. So then there’s this foundation of friendship that’s been built overtime. But nonetheless there are forms of attraction there. Essentially, if the timing is off and friendship sinks in, are these attraction stages ultimately dampened because of poor timing?