White

You come across as aggressive pushy and overy sensitive. Plus you write in an inflammatory way. There is no way you are self aware. Absolutely no way. You're a regular frustrated chump.

Now you're getting all shitty and taking it personally that I don't swallow your bullshit immediately.

I'm mocking you. I don't believe your stuff. I already said you're not enlightened because according to the research yellow and turquoise isn't enlightenment. It's only at unitive do people become aware of their meaning making. I don't think anyone can really become enlightened full time anyway. Spiral dynamics is a map of phenomena and what we know about what enlightenment is that it's not a state or station, it's not perceivable or conceivable. Enlightenment seems like a process more than anything else. I think you concocted your OWN story about what enlightenment is and have made that your identity. You don't sound very wise. You think other teachers don't teach awareness, or that they are ineffective because they are not getting scars from blowback. That doesn't sound too healthy to me..getting scars from people getting angry with you? You should know your place and only coach people who ask for your opinion.

Ok, but don't mislead people. I've already sussed Dr. Greger. His intentions are good but he is coming from an angle. The data on dairy is not conclusive. Yeah, a litre of cows milk is a lot. Yeah it may make you feel bad. Anything in excess can make you feel bad (especially those who don't have the lactase enzyme to be able to digest the stuff!). But saying that dairy is the leading cause of disease is going overboard. There is no issue in consuming moderate amounts of cheese, yoghurt, kifr, Greger uses very weak arguments to try to fit everything into his model of lifestyle medicine. Research his research, it's really inconclusive and just a story he has concocted with other plant based advocates.

@Michael569 The single most common cause of disease though. That's a pretty hefty claim. Do you have a specific paper that shows correlation? I know you can point me to vegan propaganda channels such as Dr. Greger, but have you got something more convincing?

@Genghis Khan I don't think you're unique. Everyone has uneven development. That's why the integral map was created, to solve many the problems associated with spirituality.

That's quite a story!

@Genghis Khan By the way, I'm not a shill. There are other peoples tests you can take. I just know this one because I study her work

@Genghis Khan I wouldn't be so hasty to draw any conclusions from a free test. Maybe you are 2nd tier cognition but have a green values, blue self, orange skills. There are different lines and development of each line can be at any point on the spiral. Thats why a test is good because it shows you what you need to work on. For example slow down on mere cognitive learning and allow your self and emotions to catch up so that you're more even. The wilber/coombs matrix is helpful but can't diagnose you.

@Leo Gura did you notice how blue his question was to you? he asked what the best place to live is. He's looking for an absolute and you're the higher authority that's going to answer

You said in one of your posts that yellow is enlightenment. That's not my true from my research because yellow is still an ego stage. Plus there is further development to be gained. The level past turquoise is sometimes called unitive and that's been shown to correlate to the bodhisattva stage (still ego)

@Joseph Maynor ok. Obviously i dont realize it, if i did i woulnt be doing it. I'm open to coaching. What am I missing? As I said I don't think anyone can reach enlightenment, but can utilize enlightenment experiences to grow.

@Genghis Khan Yeah you can do the test here. It's pricey

We have this And then we have this! Completely opposite versions of enlightenment. One of you had got to be bullshitting. Which one is It? No offence, but both of you can't be fucking right! Come on, what's the truth? I'm inclined to think the first one is real.

Nobody is that clever. If he's making it up then he's a fucking genius and deserves the next presidency job

@robdl It's not only good for spotting values in others, but it can also help show you where you are at your own level. There is no other tool quite like it. You will never know what a blue or red thought is in meditation unless you study this system. It's like the interpersonal world has been psychoanalyzed and all the work has been done already for you

Got any references to support that?

@louvar Of course it's complete bullshit. They all are. Anyone who says supplements are effective for anything other than short term malnutrition issurs are neglecting the fact there is no credible and conclusive evidence to support claims of efficacy further to that. In fact, supplements interfere with the bodies ability to absorb nutrients from real food. This biohacking community is such a scam

Nope.

@Light Lover Honestly? It really depends on who you're talking to at the time. That's the bottom line. No offence meant to any of the contributions here, but in essence all these criteria are all bullshit, because they are only subjective and maybe coming from an idealist position or a mood at the time. The bottom line is women have different preferences in men for different situations, different places, different times of the month. Hell, even different fucking moods that they are in! Take everything a woman says regarding this topic with a grain of salt, because that will only make you think you must have all these qualities lined up. You don't! You don't need any of these traits. All you need seriously is a pair of balls, a penis and connection to your motivations. Meaning: when you eat you eat. When you piss you piss. When you want sex you want sex and you listen to your innate ability to get it. That's it. It's no more than that. Again, I am not trying to undermine anyone's take on the subject, I totally respect that these values you have are sincere and that you live by them. All I'm saying is it's more simple than people like to make out.

@Ether If you do self inquiry you will find out for yourself very fast. It can't be explained by words, we can't get it until we see it for ourselves. You're welcome to reference my journal for instructions on how to do it.

@MarkusSweden I don't know. Research it, then come back and let us know

@MarkusSweden Don't worry, you're not going anywhere. Nobody kills the ego completely. Not that I've ever heard of. We can have many many experiences of enlightenment, none of them last, but they deepen your life and suffering becomes less and less and less. That's it.

@Stevenn There is a distinct difference between labelling a person vs. understanding where they are coming from. Spiral dynamics has done nothing but open my heart even more down to more understanding, less judgement, more compassion, more tolerance because now I know why people do what they do. For me the model has been nothing but beneficial. As with every tool, it's in the way one applies that tool that matters.

Moving From Red to Blue The Delta/3 stage is included here because it shows the cognitive differentiation that occurs from Self-protective thinking to Conformist dependence and provides a logical link for mental growth. It is not included in our measurement tool, the MAP, because it is statistically rare as mentioned in endnote #7. At this stage people vacillate between two points of view. They can take one or the other view, but not both at once. Sometimes they wonder “how do you look to me?” but newly also “how do I look to you?” They now recognize external differences regarding self-presentation and behaviors. Often children entering school are exploring this developmental stage. The Rule-oriented stage describes adults who are discovering the second person perspective and who begin to make simple, external comparisons based on concrete mental operations. They become preoccupied with finding out the social conventions and rules based on the beginning need to fit in and to be liked. One wants to look “right,” and acceptable, therefore the emphasis is on external attractiveness and appearance. People at this stage show more trust in the world since acceptance and protection can be gained by following the rules. The world is experienced as less hostile than for Self-protective folks. Persons want to be “re-spected” which means, “seen” by others. Respect can now be gained by adhering to group norms, not just by might. One also gives respect to others in the form of noticing them and how they act and look. “People notice me when I am here. I listen to them, they listen to me.” With the second perspective, one discovers the possibility for simple feedback. One can find out what others think about one. “I can ask my friends what they think; they will tell; and the world doesn’t collapse! I can trust them.” The ability to take a second person perspective is a milestone in the development of social interaction. THE CONVENTIONAL STAGES The Conformist, Self-conscious and Conscientious stages, stages 3, 3/4, and 4 respectively, cover the ego stages of most people after about the age of 12. We have found that roughly 80% of adults populate these three stages with most people in the adult working world moving from the Expert to the Achiever stage. In Piagetian terms, stage 3 represents functioning at the concrete operational level, stage 3/4 uses abstract operations and stage 4 individuals rely on formal operations for their meaning making. According to Piaget and the cognitive schools of constructive development, Conscientious stage 4 people have a linear view of reality: they define objects (variables) as being separate and having closed boundaries; they see causality as linear and variables are treated as independent. The expanded 3rd person perspective with its formal operational capacities is widely considered the adult stage in much of Western culture; and society and institutions support and reward its achievement. It is also the stage that is described as “high” ego development in research projects that use Loevinger’s theory only (Manners and Durkin, 2004). A citizenry capable of rational deliberation and choice based on pertinent criteria (not external features, sameness or tradition) would seem to be a necessary precondition for democracy to work. Only such a perspective and rational assessment of choices can safeguard the whole and at the same time allow changes to be reflected in the laws. The Conformist Stage 3 (Diplomat) This is a stage of integration into a new social container. At the Diplomat or Conformist stage, people make sense of the world in a new way. They now have developed enough skills to get around in the world, accomplish the daily tasks of life and, in general, manage ordinary, concrete things and situations. They now actively want to play by the rules. It is the first stage that can be considered as socialized, that is, to know about basic interpersonal skills such as sharing, and protecting one another. Most importantly, people at this stage see others as important people in their own right. They want to be like those in their environment whom they admire. We might say that they discovered the beginning of the “we-space.” They sing the choir of the crowd, yet without a separate voice. One can now trade magical, egocentric thinking for group-centric thinking and the security of being a member of the group. Being a part of a group gives people a new way to deal with the fact that “it’s hard to be an adult and get along.” The Conformist stage 3 describes persons with a frame of mind naturally developed in latency and early adolescence. Their self-identity is defined by their relationship to a group. This leads to confused boundaries between oneself and the group (whether family, sports team, or nation). Being part of this larger entity allows one to be protected and share in its power. The price for inclusion is an unexamined demand for loyalty and obedience. This holds for both leaders and followers at this stage. In cultures, where ostracism is a form of severe punishment, being “shunned” is meant as a death sentence. “You no longer exist for us.” Conformist adults actually relish the dependency that group membership bestows. It provides safety in numbers and a new sense of power. The self is defined by and generated by the expectations and values of those others to whom one “belongs.” Conformists tend to accept norms without inspection or questioning. Their cognitive world is divided into simple categories, and types of people, mostly based on external distinctions. Having a holiday table just like the one seen in a famous “best home” magazine, or owning a car just like one’s boss’s might really make a Conformist happy. The boundaries between self and others, however, are confused, literally fused and blurred. On the one hand, there is total acceptance of the family and in-group (such as peer groups in adolescence), on the other hand, we see blind rejection of deviance and out-groups. It’s “them” against “us” now instead of the Self-protective person’s lonely stance of “me” against “them,” which included everybody else (even family members). For the Conformist, you are either ally and friend and approve of us and what we do, or you are the enemy. The more status the group has, the more Diplomats feel worthy as one of its members. If it took some effort to fulfill the required demonstration of obedience and submission, they feel honored to be admitted and wearing the insignia that tell others so. Having a shared truth gives people a ready-made way to make sense of the world. Sometimes this goes beyond feeling valued as a member of the group. Some groups believe that their truth is the only truth. This fosters a sense of superiority. Members are told that they are the “chosen few” that shall be saved. All those who do not belong are doomed, considered heathen or barbarians, or whatever label makes them lesser or non-human. This kind of mindset is particularly common in various fundamentalist religious groups. They can judge harshly those who do not belong. It is difficult for someone whose self- sense is based on belonging to such a group to even realize that there may be others of different faiths who believe equally fervently that they have the only truth. In general, Stage 3 people try to uphold tradition and to avoid rocking the boat. They are accommodating, sometimes overly nice and non-confrontational. They don’t like to be singled out and get feedback. Feedback is experienced as critique and as having done something wrong and displeasing. Diplomats expect guidance from above or from those who lead them. They are not yet ready to take a stand to express themselves. They don’t have their own opinions to assert although they may be good at expounding the values and beliefs of their group. Nor can they take initiative for themselves. They might do so for the benefit of their group when told to do so by an accepted authority. Uncertainty and conflicting feelings cannot yet be registered as they threaten the very being of a Conformist. The description of this stage in terms of “not yet” exposes a common Western bias. Stage 3 persons have to keep up with the neighbors. They make sure they are seen in the right places (for instance, in church on Sunday) and with the right group. They are often eager to contribute to the group by volunteering (PTA, church social, men’s club) and taking on preset roles in their respective clubs. Acquiring material assets and status symbols is important as these symbolize status and prove one’s worth. Moreover, the visible assets are important because the provide real personal satisfaction and they indicate one’s success. Nametags on the door, being listed as the employee of the month show that one is noticed. Trying to keep up with fashion, neighbors and material gain can, of course, also become a burden and a source of unhappiness and stress. Morality: Conformists adhere to a simple rule: “everything goes into two piles. The good, or correct, and the bad, or incorrect.” Knowing the distinction makes it easier to make sense of the world. Every decision, every idea, every person, every action, fits in one pile or the other. There are few, if any, shades of gray, no irony, and no intangibles. Actions are carried out with conviction. This is how it is done around here. “Either you are with us and agree or you are against us.” Unlike at the Rule-oriented stage where simple rules are inconsistently adhered too, here rules are beginning to be internalized and followed without question. Shame is a common response to transgressions and for undesired consequences of one’s actions. Because of their strongly held and unquestioned values, Conformists are apt to feel responsible in situations in which they are not to blame. Repeatedly saying “I am sorry” is meant to soften any repercussions. One should have done the right thing all along. Conformists are identified with and bound to those with the same tastes, attributes, beliefs and expectations, and confused or threatened by differing demands, perspectives, diversity, and complexity. The values of one’s own group get introjected as strong “shoulds,” while the values of those who are different are denigrated and likely rejected as “evil.” Thus, life is governed by rules of what can be and cannot be done. Others with differing views are morally condemned. Sexual and aggressive feelings are likely denied or suppressed out of fear of rejection and abandonment. For the same reason, commandments from various religious are taken in as the Truth and not examined. The “holy books” contain the literal truth. Any questioning of their commandments guaranteeing salvation is seen as a form of treason or a sign of having fallen from grace. Social: To be liked one has to have an attractive social personality. It is important to be nice, pleasant, and accommodating. People are judged by the way they dress and talk and by the proper manners. Great care is taken on neatness, outward appearance, cleanliness of one’s domicile or office. There are those whom by temperament, are more contrary. At the Diplomat stage, it is possible to find some sense of OK-ness as a non-conformist. Rebels, have-nots and other misfits often need, find or create their own cliques. One can either be a loner or create or join an alternative group and display the markers that identify one as a member of that clique. This can happen because the individuals don’t fit the prevailing norms or do not have the tokens that would help them to belong to the high status group. 17 Multiple cliques, such as fraternities and sororities on campus, often attract various kind of students with a conformist mindset . Each has its own traditions with different acceptance rituals and admittance oaths. Feelings: Blind conformism, fundamentalism and prejudice can be expressions of this early conventional frame of mind. Potential aggression against self (putting oneself down) and negative affect or disappointment are often countered by demonstrations of overly positive feelings and enthusiasm. One’s negative feelings “I hate you” are split off and projected outside and then experienced as “they hate me.” Anger and other disagreeable feelings are suppressed as they threaten the status quo. They rarely reach awareness. Conformists’ main coping moves are projection and introjection. They imagine that others think, want, feel what they themselves think, want or feel (projection) and then try to fill those imagined needs. They also swallow others’ definitions, norms, values and opinions without questioning (introjection). If my mother, the church, or the boss says so, it must be true. To summarize, the Conformist- Diplomat does not yet have a self in the sense of a separate adult identity. Instead, he or she is defined by others. The self-other boundaries are blurry and not differentiated. Thus, relationships often have a dependent, “sticky, I-need-you” quality. Interpersonal style: Because Conformists so desperately want to belong, they will conform to the rules and norms of whatever desired group, gang, political party they belong to. In companies they are the ones that smooth discontent or incipient conflict among coworkers and make sure that the place has a pleasant atmosphere. They value being nice and helpful. They see relationships in terms of expected behaviors (loyalty, being friendly) rather than in terms of deep feelings and motives. Cognitive style: Conformists are interested in the concrete, visible aspects of experience and tend to use superlatives and conventional clichés to describe it. These clichés, however, are taken seriously and not experienced as clichés. References to inner feelings are stereotyped and predictable and aligned with cultural expectations. Conscious preoccupation: Conformists put great value on appearance, status symbols, material possessions, reputation and prestige. They are concerned with social acceptance and attempt to adjust to group norms. They deeply care about other’s opinions and evaluations although they are not likely to ask for feedback. “What do others think about this or that, or about me?” Internal dimension: Conformist individuals worry about what others think and feel at any given moment as their sense of self-worth depends on others’ approval. In protocols they express simple “acceptable” feeling states: sad, happy, nervous, upset, but do not differentiate feelings into subtler graduations. The sense of “shoulds” and “oughts” and sense of shame and embarrassment if those shoulds are not fulfilled can be crushing. Main anxiety: not to belong and to be cast out. Most threatening to a Conformist is being disapproved by or deserted by significant others, rejected by one’s group. Their anxiety is thus a fear of being non-existing and the loss of a sense of self as a loss of “me-as-accepted-by-others.” Problem solving: Generally, emerging problems are denied, or relabeled and white-washed. “Never mind that. If you look at the bright side, it’s not really so bad.” Asking a superior for what to do is the most natural way of dealing with difficulties. Conflict is not yet registered or if experience, it is avoided as too threatening. It can become great challenge to a Diplomat if he or she belongs to different groups with conflicting value sets. With today’s mobility and complex arrangements, this is becoming challenge for Diplomats is becoming more common. Organizational type: Conformists seek acceptance and protection by a larger entity. They are most apt to be drawn into organizations with a clearly defined identity and hierarchical structures. Clear instructions, advice and guidance are preferred over freedom to show initiative. Thus, command and control enterprises such as the military are attractive. Coaching-Counseling style: Conformists like to give lots of advice telling others what to do or not to do. They also tend to compare and evaluate others according to their own preferences where the way I manage or we do it here is the right way while other ways are simply wrong and need to be corrected. Sample characters: Edith Bunker in All in the Family takes all kinds of abuse by others, particularly her spouse Archie, but she stays with him. She is fluttering and fussing around him, always trying to be positive, to see the best in everybody and in everything. Edith finds pleasure in taking good care of her loved ones. However, the character Edith also displays an open-mindedness which is not typical of this stage. Language signs: The language is often impersonal, nice and positive and may be full of clichés. Short, stereotypical phrases, exaggerated positive affect are common on the MAP. Everybody and everything is fun, important, wonderful. When describing situations; concrete aspects and factual information is given. Conformists describe their and others’ behavior in terms of I “always”, we “never.” The vocabulary for feeling states is simple, undifferentiated. Source: cook-greuter.com