WaveInTheOcean

It is possible to desire "something" without attaching yourself to that "something". It sure ain't easy, but it's possible. When you're enlightened, yes you don't attach to anything ... but you don't detach from anything either so to speak

"If a man would move the world, he must first move himself." -- Socrates. I won't judge whether you have found the way or not. I don't know. All I'm saying is, be open to the idea, that you are not seeing the full picture of reality. When you put out wordings like "I can only show the way" it sure as hell does sound like you feel like you have figured it all out. Maybe you have. Maybe not. Again. Take care, as will I. I should get some sleep and spend less time on this forum. Cheers. EDIT: I understand. Communication of one's perspective on things to other people is a fascinating diffcult task indeed.

I am not angry at all. Frustrated a tad maybe:D Why should I be angry upon you? You take care too. I appreciate you took the time to answer my questions.

Finally something useful. This quoted here is a clear message that is arguably true and useful. Thanks.

Is your answer Bob? What/who is Bob? An ego? An I? You just said there are no seperated I's. Does Bob have free will? Did Bob decide to become ignorant of the mentioned fact that he is Awareness? If Bob someday becomes conscious of the fact that he is Awareness -- did Bob choose to become conscious of this? ------- Is your answer Awareness? So Awareness chose to become ignorant of the fact that it is Awareness? This one sounds better right? There is no Bob in the first place. Bob is an illusion. There is only doings within, by and created by the Supreme Awareness, aka God. So when Bob is ignorant of the fact that he is Awareness, it is actually just Awareness playing a little game with itself; that it is Bob and not awareness. Right? In that case, what the fuck is your point with this thread, mate? You say many suffer and live in illusion. Yet, you say there are no separated individuals. And you also say we are all one. ----- Look, Motus, you have not figured anything out at all. And I don't claim to have either. You talk about how it's important to drop all attachment. How about you drop this very obvious attachment of yours to the confusing teachings you are writing here? You say evolution is not real. Could it be that is both real and not real at the same time? Could it be that everything is just a matter of perspective? From a logical perspective -- trying to model reality and understand it in terms of langauge -- then evolution is 100% proven to be what is going on. Yet, at the same time, the fact that we are sitting here on this Earth having this discussion should tell one something... That reality is mystical as fuck... So returning to evolution.. from the highest perspective the idea of evolution may just be a silly idea, and actually every mutation that has happened in genes was not random but determined to happen, and by so, we are all children of God and God's plans. Somehow, God's plan include people living life where they believe they are a body-mind. There's really nothing wrong about it. You talk about how there's something wrong about the current situation on Earth... Yeah sure from my perspective a lot of shit is wrong... But I'm open enough to realize that from other perspectives of my own little egoic, for example from a very, very high perspective (God so to speak) everything that happens here on Earth, even all the suffering and "evil" shit: It's all one big harmony. All is perfect. Reality is perfect as it is. No need to change it... And yet we feel a need to change it, and I feel you man.. It would be great if all could find their inner love and happiness by seeing that they are not their body nor their mind ... But mate, become one with the Truth for yourself first,, you obv have a long way to go, and I'm not saying this to bash to you, but I'm saying it as kindly as I can. You are very obviously attached to these concepts of yours.. drop it man.. don't hold it as Truth.. Don't bash duality. Don't become a zen devil. Embrance reality as it is. Love yourself. Find yourself... you will discover you can't... And then live a happy life, do what you want. If you want to teach others, then do it, but don't do it the way you currently do it. You are so confusing to read. Look at what you have written: "Nothing is not you. Nor is everything you. That from nothing not comes something, and from something not nothing, let that be clear. That Awareness is not something, does not mean it is nothing. That it is not nothing, does not mean its something or a combination of it. Another reason is, from nothing comes not something, due to that Awareness wasn't born, and is not equal to nothing or something, but supreme due to being all pervasive, which is nothing not, and something not. These are polarity based." I mean what the actual fuck do you expect people to get out of this? "But at least, let there be a few who do can understand it quickly." I assure you, no one on this forum have got any larger understanding of reality by reading what you have written in this topic. My last post here. have a good day.

If everyone suddenly fully realized they were the Supreme All-Pervasive Awareness, then what? Maybe no more rapings and such ... But which game is it that stops exactly? "I state, that rather someone wants it or not, that these things happen due to ignorance of the fact that we are Awareness." Let's say we have a dude, let's call him Bob, that is ignorant to the fact that he is "Awareness" (whatever that might be) just like everyone else is. Motus ... In the case of our friend Bob here, who/what is it that is ignorant of the mentioned fact? What's your answer? EDIT: Btw, to say the "I"-illusion is created out of passions is an absurd statement in my humble view.

Me too. I know everything is interwoven, yet I can't see it. Is your point that if a woman goes home from a party and someone rapes her... then it is was what she wanted? Because it happened? Because she is the raper and the raper is she? There is only One? Only doings? Only happenings? No do'ers? Only God playing a game? Everything is interwoven? How can you get out of the game? By dropping all ideas, all attachments and just fully accepting what is?:) I guess that's a way to view it. Gotta smoke some stuff at some point I guess. cheers. EDIT: Which psychedelics have you taken Motus? Give me some information on how you have recieved all this knowledge.

Good question. Let's first differentiate between mind and consciousness. Mind = talking, emotions, thoughts ... Consciousness = You .. The non-located no-thing experiencing the mind. Your mind/brain/ego is of course separated from mine because your brain is at another location in this world. Now here comes the really strange part. You are the self-aware non-located no-thing (consciousness/nothingness) experiencing one....... mind. I am ,,,,,,the self-aware non-located no-thing (consciousness/nothingness) experiencing another mind. So You are I and I am You. The Law of One. We are all one. Unity. etc etc etc Two ways to attack the problem: - We are One, but yet, this Infinite One has infinite minds attached to it and it can only experience one mind at a time. - We are One, but yet, this Infinite One splits itself up into many finite One's, which each has a mind attached to it. You are one part of the Infinite One, I am another part of the Infinite One. Both ways can't explain reality fully though. They are both lackluster. So the question: "Why do I have this experience and You have another experience" can't be answered. If it could be answered fully, then reality wouldn't be infinite.

"The goal of the game, is to spiral out of the game, and to Attain the True self for higher experiences." What if there are no ultimate goals? Life is a game. You can never stop playing. You can die/kill yourself but this is merely like a piece in Ludo that dies, and then God rolles a dice, wooah it's 6, new piece comes in. "I also wonder rather people do not experience already that they are multi "incarnated" intelligences? That are converting different planes of existence already through their "Dreams" that are to real to state to be a dream, feeling parts of them die as if family died, which is just another part of them on a different plane of existence." What you call The True Self was never born so it could never die. It's not a thing. Yet, Nothingness is what you are, yes you. It's this nothingness that experiences everything. It's also out of nothingness that every experience is created. And thus every experience happens "inside" nothingness. "The true star of the game, your True self, is the Supreme that governs all your worlds. Your true self is your ultimate guide and protector in this game." A true star, an ultimate guide, a protector? Interesting properties to give nothingness. But whatever floats your boat. "So let this article be a call, knowledge for your True self, a signal that this all is grand scale and highly complex." Yes, reality is infinitely complex... not just "highly complex". Knowledge is for mind, not for the True Self. The mind has knowledge which it can store and proces, which the True Self then experiences. "I am saying that there is no vast source, so for example its more likely that those believers in that we come from monkeys, themselves were once monkeys and other animals in form of intelligences (spirit), and find it plausible that all came from apes, it is more likely that that is true, then that we actually truly come from apes. Awareness was already, so one of those people might have had some experience about previous creations of himself, and accidentally believed it was for all. Comes up with a logic and so on. And is at that moment just in yet another game." Just like your ideas here is another game. Those "believers" .. "themselves" were once "monkeys" Which believers? Who is it inside a biologist that may once have been a monkey? ... Actually I think my main problem with with this discussion, is that I simply don't see the point with this thread:D Just like I haven't seen a point with any of your comments posted on this forum so far. I have thought about putting you on ignore, because everytime I read a post from you, I feel like I have wasted time. Just like I have done now. Jeez.

Motus, you sound like you got it all figured out. My advice to you: - Sit down and ask yourself if you really understand who you are, and how the "game" functions. Could it be that it's all just ideas in your head that are actually hindering you on your path? You seem to be pretty attached to these ideas you postulate here on this forum. Try to become deeply aware of the fact that all you post here is just that: ideas created by your mind. And then embrace reality, embrace the not-knowning, and dive into it... It's when one fully incoporates the"I actually don't know -- I have no clue -- but I'm open to whatever it might turn out to be"-mindset into the heart that true greatness can be allowed to arise out of nothingness. Frustration and fear may be the first reactions though, but it'll pass. I can recommend "The Book of Not Knowing" by Peter Ralston. I for one haven't bought Leo's booklist, but everyone knows this book is on the list as Leo has has given credits to Ralston in some of his videos.

Okay, I just watched it again. It's one big pile of crap:D Watch at 03:02 where he talks to the camera and is clearly not focused, but then suddenly he sees the wind is coming , and then he quickly turns around and acts.

Thx for link. Heard 2 mintutes of him. I'm sold. Seems like a wise guy. The youtube comment: "The whole gig spelled out about as well as it can be in under half an hour. Truly unbelievable. It is easy to become complacent in semi-disinterested patterns, where I mostly don't really care what's going on, and a silent wisdom operates more or less skillfully, yet layers of a veil remain pulled over. Your words are a precious reminder of the full recognition of aloneness. That a shudder may course through the body shaking off this fear of being alone that awaited in the shade beneath the arc of self and other. To reveal the inspiration and love of what is true beyond the pettiness of temporal forms. To remind of the power of directionless faith. And to set fire to the subtle arrogance of complacency until any usefulness seen in these videos disappears to reveal only a joyous homage" is nice as well.

I don't know. I just want it. The why-questions aren't really relevant.

But could you elaborate your opinion a bit while you are here? How should one, according to you, maneuver on the path? You said something about doing it with others, in a sort of social setting?... Could you eleborate? I'm interested on all views on this matter, and you seem to be wiser than the average dude on this forum.

As a mataphor, the opposite could - for some - be equally true. You know nothing. I know nothing. After all I find it a bit funny that you're criticizing this forum and its purpose so much, while you are still here having a discussion with me. If you dislike this forum so much, why the heck are you still hanging around? Go away! Unless there is still some part of you that enjoy wasting time here.

I don't see it as a thing anyone needs to succeed in. Enlightenment is meaningless, pointless. Nothing matters. My nature is very inclined to seek for Truth. I've been interested in math, physics and chemistry since I was a boy. Naturally I want to go the whole way. I have many friends who don't give a damn fuck about Truth and Enlightenment. It's fine, I take on another personality when I with them and enjoy their company and life. No problem. I don't try to force them to anything. They should do whatever they want to do. Some suffering is fine. Ultimately there's nothing wrong with suffering. MOst of the time there will be happiness in-between to contrast it anyway. "why do you want it to be love and enjoyable?" You see, I just told you, that you have to kill "yourself" to become enlightened. Has that anything to do with what you label as "enjoyable"? . "think about this guys. what would happen if enlightenment doesnt give you this endless bliss? what if?" I couldn't care less, mate. I couldn't care less about enlightenment to be honest. All I want is Truth, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE! I don't know what it is. I only have ideas... And I try to be conscious enough to not attach to any of my ideas, which is hard, but doable. The mind constantly produces thoughts, ideas and emotions. That is its fucking nature. Have a good day.

Great! I think that's exactly the purpose If people don't become lost in the search for enlightenment -- then they aren't searching very effectively. But I sort of hear what ya' saying. Even though some confusing is good... Enlightenment should IMO still be practiced/searched for with love, understanding, care, patience ... and probably with some degree of caution!

It's all about perspective. In the "boy draws on a blank paper"-analogy, to me, - the boy/the boy's hand/the pencil = God (y) - blank paper = True Self (z) - whats drawn on paper = experience/happenings/ego/mind/body (x) - The blank paper is eternal (was never born, will never die) & it's conscious of whats drawn upon it. - The blank paper is infinite in size & in its "ground-state" it's just completely blank and empty (nothingness). - The pencil that's drawing can switch randomly between infinite colours and infinite types of pencils and it also has an ereaser on it's back that it often uses. - The pencil can draw an infinite different pictures upon you. - Whats drawn on paper is real enough, but only momentarily real. If you cling to whats drawn, you will constantly switch between happiness (when something good is drawn) and sufferiing (when the drawn disappears again). - If you realize that what's drawn is NOT you, but just experience/happenings, and that you are the no-thing/blankness that experiences all that, then you become enlightened. - Makyo is when there is drawn something you percieve as 'extraordinary'/true and you then cling to it as Truth. - A True Complete Enlightenment Experience is when you become fully aware of what's going on: ... Your perspective/awareness sort of raises above the paper, and you directly see the pencil drawing on the blank, eternal you... You meet God. - A Real (with a capital R) Awakening happens when the pencil -- for whatever reason -- momentarily, completely halts all the drawing while also erasing the earlier drawn (mind/memories) completely. What is then left is just the blank paper: nothingness (True Self). No experience. It's not an experience. That's enlightenment. The mind is COMPLETELY killed. NOTHING is left. There is only YOU (nothingness) left... discovering your self (but ITS NOT AN EXPERIENCE, because you are a no-thing, and a no-thing can't be experienced). This is litteraly equal to physical DEATH. The only difference is that -- for some reason -- it's possibly to keep the body alive while the paper is completely blank... It's sort of a paradox, right, because the body is something that's drawn on the paper... What when you go to deep sleep? Isn't this equal to what I just described? Sounds like it... the difference may lie in that when you go to deep sleep, "the pencil is being handled in such a way" that the mind doesn't remember itself shutting down.. it happens gently and unconsciously... A real awakening, here you see the mind/ego getting annihilated right in front of You , and then momentarily there's nothing left but You, and then some "time afterwards", the ego comes back, and You see it coming back.., like You get pushed back into a skull from the nothingness... When going to deep sleep and waking up, it's all happening in such a way that the mind is programmed to not store (remember) the experience of it being killed. In a same way when "you" wake up from deep sleep, the mind is programmed to not store the experience of being resurrected from nothing. I'm not talking about the deep sleep/nothingness itself, because here there is only You/Silence/Nothingness, i.e. it's a no-experience because the mind produces zero experience -- the paper is blank -- simply because the mind is death. I'm simply talking about the very few seconds BEFORE the death of the mind (the killing), and the very few seconds AFTER the resurrection of the mind. No one remember falling asleep. Yes, we remember when we went to lie down on the bed. But we never remember any experience of actually falling into deep sleep (= the mind being killed). This, I postulate, is "simply" because the brain/mind is wired in such a way to not store such an experience. If the mind, on the other hand, WAS wired/programmed to store such an experience, then everyone would be enlightened, lol, because everyone would see their egoes/minds getting completely killed, and thus everyone would directly be able to see for Themselves that They are not the body nor the mind/ego. Everyone would be scared shitless, lol. Very few would dare to go to sleep -- because it would feel like getting actually killed. And from an evolutionary perspective it's extremely "bad" for an "organism" to realize its True Self is not the body (for very obvious reasons), so OF COURSE the brain/mind is wired to not remember falling asleep. Same goes for waking up from deep sleep. Everyone has tried to be waken by someting/someone while you were in a very, very deep, deep sleep. When that happens, you are always very, very confused in the seconds after waking up. I think this is because the mind/brain is wired in such a way to not remember the experience of being resurrected from nothingness. Also if your body dies/you commit suicide... Then... there is no mind left to integrate/remember "the experience" ("the experience" = the 'right before' and the 'right after' the 'no-experience'/ego-death. And thus, physical death has nothing to do with enlightenment, just like going to deep sleep has nothing to do with enlightenment. Enligthenment is sort of a paradox, because enligtenment, yes, is the DEATH of the MIND. But at the same time, enligtenment requires the mind/brain/person to be FULLY 'alive/awake/aware' to actually remember the experience of both the killing and the resurrection of the mind . It's the memories of such two 'happenings' that produces an enlightened person. The space between the two happenings (i.e the killing and the ressurection) is the no-experience/nothingness which the mind itself can't remember because it wasn't there. But the process of the killing and the process of the resurrection; this the mind 'can' store and remember as a memory. And when the mind remember these two happenings, the mind can now see that it doesn't really exist, and it starts producing thoughts and emotions without the "I" labeled on to them. So an enlightenment experience could basically be described as: - going to deep sleep, while being fully aware of going to the deep sleep (i.e. the mind rembering the experience of going to deep sleep, i.e. the mind remebering the experience of itself being annihilated into nothingness). - then shorty after waking up from deep sleep, while being fully aware of waking up from deep sleep (i.e. the mind remembering the experience of itself waking up from deep sleep, i.e. the mind remembering the experience of itself being reborn from nothingness). In both cases, of course, "You" (z) is always there, You can't be modified. You are just there. You experience the memories the mind produces for You. So after all... Enlightenment is sort of a paradox because it's: - on one hand: all about the mind (it has to be 'alive'/'be there' to store certain experiences needed for enlightenment) - on another hand: not about the mind at all (it has to be killed for reaching enlightenment) It's two opposing statements ... Yet both of them are equally true and false Truth with a capital T comes when the two opposing ideas come together and form a circle: - the mind has to be killed (one half of the circle). <----> So You can become You (Nothingness). - the mind has to be alive (other half of the circle). <----> So You can experience the killing of the not-you. The True Self can only fully discover itself by directly experiencing the killing of The False Self. Without a False Self (ego) in the first place, there could be no True Self (nothingness) in the first place And vice versa. The world we all see ourselves in is dualistic. For there to be darkness, there has to be light. For there to be 'a day', there has to be 'a night'. For there to be 'good', there has to be 'evil'. For there to be a True Self, there has to be False Self. Two opposing things are always two sides of the same coin. So basically enligtenment is a change of what x (ego / mind) produces for You (z) to experience. If "you" are an enlightened person, "you" are still just a person/ego/mind/brain running around -- playing the game of life. The difference "just" lies in what this person says, does, thinks, feels . (What the mind produces for You to experience) So achieving enligtenment is after all just achieving a special type of personality ... But a very special, rare kind of personality, of course. Its traits are, among other things: - Absolute Self-Discovery. - Unconditional Love to all of reality. - Deep intuitive understanding of human life & how the mind/ego functions. - Deep understanding of reality. - No attachment to any experience, yet no detachment from any experience either. - Passion for life -- passion for both self and others. Cheers. EDIT: I edited the shit out of this one. Added a lot of rambling shit.

I both agree and disagree. I agree that this forum is largely for mental masturbation ... which I probably am also participating in! Yet I still think this forum has it uses. Just a few them: - sharing of resources - newbies who seek can get guidance on how to "get on the path" - I have written a lot of shit in this thread... By writing it all, I sort of understand my self better. You know? Before I wrote it all it was just vague ideas in my head, yet, when I write them down on paper like I do here, I can get a better picture of it all. - Concepts, logic, rationalism still has its uses on the path imo. It is the mind that has to surrender, after all, and it helps if the mind has a vague idea of what Truth might be and how it might get there (i.e. "HOW DO I SURRENDER?") I do fully agree, though, that to really find the Truth, one has to stop all the masturbation and go do the "practical" work needed.

interesting. Something tells me he maybe "just" have an extraordinary intuitive "understanding" of: - when the wind is coming - where it's coming from - how powerful it's going to be And therefore he is able to to do what he does. But having such an understanding is probably not less "magical" than creating wind with body-movements.

Inspiring to read! thank you. I'm a newbie to pranayma techniques. Did you do pranayma techniques before meditation? Or was the pranayma techniquesTHE meditation that you did? Are there any pranayma techniques you found more powerful than others? And do you (or anybody else) have a good free online resource for learning pranayma techniques properly? Thanks.

I'm not claiming that anything I wrote is "Truth"... In fact I THINK I wrote, that Truth can only by experienced, not communicated. So this is just my humble description of Truth... _ a description_ . Descriptions is concepts and logic. Yet, within rationalism and concepts, I would say my above description is accurate. If you have any valid arguments of why I might be wrong, feel free to point it out. The mind cannot "know" stuff. The mind is "simply" a brain that produces and processes internal software (thoughts, emotions, vision, sound, sense of feeling, smell and so on) -- which btw depend on the external "programming" . I include vision and sound because it' light and soundwaves being processed by hardware to produce software.. the software is then video and sound you see and hear. The "you" that experiences all this is not software itself. It's simply NOT A THING. We can call it consciousness or apeshit, both are equally true. Yet consciousness sounds "better" lol. That's why we say you are nothingness. Self-aware nothingness is the basic fundamental nature of reality. ", but one thing i know for sure is i have to detach and let go" ... Yes, just don't become too attached to the idea that you should detach from everything, hehe. There are a infinite number of traps in this journey. Forget all concepts. If you realize you are nothing, then naturally, you cannot attach anything, but you cannot detach from anything either! Attachment and detachment -- bvadr,, FORGET the concepts and go for direct experience. "you just change the thing you hold on to to something different." You hurt me here. lol. You are probably right though ... However, I enjoy contemplating this stuff and discussing it But you are right, I should be careful I don't get too attached to any idea my mind produce. ... I would say, though, that I'm in general conscious of the fact that everything we discuss here is merely concepts and can't lead to Truth in itself. "How can there be x,y,z if there's only y?" x isn't anywhere, and wasn't anywhere to begin with. "x" as ego is just a stream of apparantly random thoughts and emotions that is happening. Yet, the random stream of thoughts and emotions are what makes up your personality. It's your persona. But IT'S NOT YOU. What you are, is just the experiencer of all this stuff. But it's even wrong to call it an experiencer, because you aren't a noun or a thing... You are more like an eternal proces of reality that is all experience, that knows all experience, and that creates all experience. Yet, you are right, there is only y, but because y is infinite beyond time and space, to realize that it is infinite, it has to create the counterpart: finiteness. And you are a finite part of that infiniteness. As an analogy imagine a little boy with very high creativity sits down and wants to draw a picture with his pencil. Before he begins, the white paper is absolutely blank. It's nothing.. It's just paper. Now the paper = infinite consciousness = you When the boy begins to draw he sort of makes a finite picture out of an infinite number of pictures he could have drawed. I think that's the best language-made explanation of true infinity... Right before one begins to draw a picture on a blank paper, there are an INFINITE number of possible pictures that can be drawn. As SOON as you start to draw, you transform the infinite to a finite picture. Anyway, if you see yourself as the paper being drawn on... Can you see what the problem is if you, as the white paper, begins to identify yourself as what's drawn on you? What if the boy draws something ugly and bad? You would cry... However, if you realize you are not whats drawn on the paper, but that you are the paper itself, then you cannot be hurt... Unless the boy tears up the paper lol:D Also, because something is drawn on the paper, you as the paper are able to identify yourself. If boy never drawed anything on you, you would not have anything to contrast yourself with, and thus you would not know your self. "Isnt x's(ego's) biggest dream to be the z(immortal being, spirit ), which is still just illusion on another scale? Ego on a spiritual level, still allowing for Other and war. " x cannot dream anything nor have any dream. x is not a thing. x is an experience... a stream of emotions and thoughts. x may give you these streams of emotions and thoughts in a nice package labeled "DREAM". It may even, if it's REALLY naughty be labeled "I HAVE A DREAM" ... If the package is only labeled "DREAM" we got an enlightened dude right there. Must be extraordinary to have a stream of emotions and thoughts without the "I AM/I HAVE/ I XXX"-part labeled on it but only "dream", "hungry", "thirsty", "funny"-packages. My point is, nothing has any dream. You see what I did here? It's nothing that has any dream. ITS Z THAT HAS THE DREAM CMON MATE!! The difference just lies if the dream has attached an "I"-feeling to it or not. If the dream has attached an "I"-feeling to it, then z cannot see that it's z, but identifies instead as the "I" (the x that doesn't exist). If the dream has no "I"-feeling attached to it, but is just a happening..., then z can see that it's z, because there are no dirty little tricks being played anymore and becaise the dream is still an experience, which has to be experienced, and if there is no "I" from the ego saying it's experiencing anything, but the experience STILL _HAPPENS_ then my gentlemen,, the z is free to see that there are only happenings, and that it is the nothingness-"perciever" percieving all the happenings. You call "z" an "immortal being, spirit"... which is just a bad use of conceptual words imo... Better call "z" NOTHING. EMPTY AWARENESS. That's more accurate, even though no words and do your true self full justice.

Well you are a finite part of the infinite mind ('infinite mind' = pure infinite empty consciousness aka God). Leo is another finite part. Or Leo is an EGO with a part of infinite consciousness experiencing that ego. You are another part. Of course you can compare how deep a finite part has delved into the infinite ocean in terms of understanding reality(=the ocean). There are no separate "I's" though, no separate "owners" or "controllers". But there are separate finite minds -- obviously. The "no-thing" that experiences each finite mind is the infinite mind. The feeling that you are an "individual experiencer" experiencing this life of yours ... now that's the ego-illusion we're always talking about. There is no individual experiencer.. there is only experience within consciousness. When you go and make a sandwhich, and the thought comes up "Mhm, what a nice sandwhich _I_ just made".. that's the illusion right there.. There was none who made the sandwhich. There was only the experience of "making a sandwhich".. no one did it. You could say God did it, but the "you" didn't do it, because "you" don't exist. If we speak in terms of langauge, there are no subjects. There are only verbs. Only doings. There are no do'er except God, if you really want one. The creation of "subjects" / nouns is a man-made thing (but though, also a God-made thing hehe)... it's a tool to function in the world... Use the tool (mind) wisely. hehe. The mind/ego stores "happenings"/doings as memories and instantly creates a story in your head that says "I did this" or "this happened to me". And that is the illusion right there... If we could remove the memory of "you making a sandwhich"... then you wouldn't know that you have created the sandwhich... There is only the present moment. And in the present moment there are a lot of "happenings". But there isn't anyone who "do" the "happenings". .. Yet the present moment for each of us often includes the internal experience of being an "I" that did something in the past... Now how do we get rid of this internal experience? First.. one probably has to see, that it's just a thought/internal experience, and has nothing to with the actual reality... And then we can work from there. But who is the "one" that has to see this? LOL. It's a paradox right... Who IS it that can SEE that this "I did this"-feeling is just a thought? ... It's sort of the mind/ego itself that has to realize it doesn't really exist... it has to realize "hey, this is just an experience, and I am not that" ... Or we could split you up into 3 parts: x: ego (conceptual illusion created through internal language/thoughts... an experience happening in consciousness) z: The finite part of infinite consciousness (Pure being / "soul" / the True Higher Self/You that is capable of being aware of the ego and see it as an experience) y: Pure infinite empty consciousness (God) Now, you are not an ego. If you believe you are x ( a person/ego ) then you believing in a hallucination, and labeling this hallucination as "Truth". ... This leads to suffering at some point or another... obviously... Because this hallucination can easily be hurt by other egos. Are you y? Well... No you are not God for christ sake (:D). But you can find this "y" (God) inside you. But it's not really you, yet it is what you are part of, it's the essential part of you that makes it possible for you to exist, it's the "proces" that has created you. So you are basically "z" which is created out of y. z is the link between x and y. If there were no z, there would be no x or y. ... z is what creates the ultimate duality.. the duality of "finite" and "infinite". You are this z... It's not a thing.. It's more like "Pure being"... A "spirit of God" so to speak. "z" is the "individual" awareness that you are... Its the thing that is aware of ego.. Now, it's very important to differentiate between x and z... .. Z is eternal BECAUSE it has the same properties as y EXCEPT it's FINITE. x is an experience happening inside of Z, and Z is a part of Y. You can't KILL "z" because it's eternal. You CAN kill "x" because it didn't live to begin with. But x will always be there during normal life anyway. .. Because it's x that is the: - talking - emotions - thoughts Etc.... You become enlightened if you as an ego, identify yourself deeply as z (and not as X), and thus you become in direct contact with y (the divine/God). So basically when all the emotions and thoughts instead of telling "z" that it's "x", begin "to tell" "z" that it's "z" (and thus a "product" of y, then you are enlightened :-) So for most people, "x" (which is just happenings/experiences) tells "z" that it's "x". For the enlightened persons, "x" (which is just a happenings/expereinces) tells "z" that it's "z". But it's all "God"'s doings of course,... It's full circle of course. So: Average dude: y makes "x" tell z that it's "x" Enlightened dude: y makes "x" tell z that it's z. Free will is an illusion of course ... It's all done by God's/y's doings. So reality/God/Absolute Infinity plays a game with itself where it tells itself (all the z's) that it's "x" ... It tells itself a lie... It takes on a mask and acts... plays a silly little game with itself ... Yet sometimes, Absolute Infinity wants to see itself (through z of course), so it makes it tell itself (all the z's) that it is actually z (and thus ultimately y). Why do Absolute Infinity do all this? Well, you guessed it.. it's infinite, so it does ALL kinds of wierd mystical stuff. The fact that you exist is one big mystery... all we can say is that God is infinite... and remember, infinite beyond time and space. I have to get to work, I could sit and talk about this for years. :D:D

You have to become aware of the difference between: - Understanding "I am nothing/I am everything/We are all one/etc" conceptually and logically. - Feeling it in your 'heart'. Understanding enlightenment through language is fine, but it's just 1% of the path. To become enlightened, you have to BECOME one with the Truth... not just understand it through language.... cos ultimately, the Truth cannot be put into language... It has to be directly experienced... And that ain't so easy And even... Directly experiencing Truth, through a breakthrough dose of 5-meo for example, that is often not enough to give you constant enlightenment.. You saw the Truth in the 5-meo experience, but it most of the time does not stick, and the "I exist as this person"-feeling comes back quickly... .. The "I exist as this person"-feeling is EXTREMELY hard to get rid of for more than just momentarily awakening-episodes... However, sometimes, you are "ready" for it, and when a very deep awakening-experience hits you, it transforms you, and you are enlightened. Most of the time, it takes work to get "ready". Work = meditation, self-inquiry, reading about it, understanding it deeply through language, being aware of your actions, thoughts, emotions, etc during live, etc etc etc

That's the nature of reality, isn't it Leo? It's infinite beyond language, space, time. Even an enlightened master with 100.000 hours of practice and wisdom can still go infinitely deeper. Sort of scary to think about, but then again, also amazing. Hehe. - Every humans deepest desire is to feel content. Happiness is everyone's goal. Yet how we reach happiness differs a lot. Most people do it by attaching themselve to external things (relationships, sex, money, "success", respect by others, big house, cars, having kids who you want to be as you, etc) - Yet the only way to find CONSTANT happiness is by looking inwards and finding it in your true self... discovering your true nature. - When you become enlightened you intuively identify everything "you" experience as "you". You have found constant happiness inside the mind/body you're currently in. But since you see everything as you ("we are all one"), you will want to eliminate pain where you see it. You want other 'ego's' to become free and to find the inner happiness. And that desire right there, is uncondtional love. A true understanding of all reality. Another way to explain unconditional love is from the opposite statement which is also incoporated into the enlightened persons "heart", and that is the statement "I am nothing". By having this feeling natural in the heart (not feeling one self as an individual ego) no persons can hurt you anymore (expect physically maybe). So because you can't be hurt, naturally, all you can give in return is love to all of reality. You see everything from the highest perspective, and from the highest perspective, everything combined is in total harmony. Everything that happens, happens ... you don't fight it. You embrace reality. That's unconditional love. I have briefly experienced this, but I'm nowhere near to obtain unconditional love for all of reality, yet. There's a long way to go, and I think the way is infinite. That is to say.. ABSOLUTE 'unconditional love' all the time is maybe impossible to achieve. But it's possible to get approximate it and get very close to the state all the time. And when you are so close, that 99% of the time you feel love to all of reality ... that's when you are enlightened. Obviously your ego now comes up with all sort of stories like the one "The concept of unconidtional love is just as real as Hitlers thought about superiority". This is one big pile of bulshit created by your ego. You haven't experienced unconditional love, and you somehow also currently lack the logical capabilities to understand it on a conceptual level, even though conceptual is always subpar to direct experience of course. That is to say, if you some day experience it, then logic doesn't matter anyway Let me briefly experience the difference between "your limited view on what love is", and what "True Unconditional love is".... When you love someone in a relationship, most of the time it's a dependent relationship, and you only love the image you have in your head of the other person. So if the person suddenly does something that doesn't match with your image of that person, then you suddenly hate the person. For example if your girlfriend kisses with someone else to a party... You hate her, and probably want to break up with her... See that's false love, you only loved her when she acted like you expected her to act... You loved the projection you created of her. You didn't really love her... Two great videos on 'false love' vs 'true love' (in a relationship-context though) : Yet, again, we're just talking on a conceptual level. It's good and all, but it's great to have experienced linving in a dependent relationship...you learn. You develop. Experience is key to self-development in all areas of live. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also totally off-topic. About Athenes Logic nation stuff. I think his idea about integrating "logic" as a core value on an emotional level is a pretty powerful idea that can be very practical for many. Yes, it has nothing to do with enlightenment. I sort of understand Leo's critic of it. Yet I would say that Leo already has logic as a core value on an emotional level. It depends on what you define logic as. Athene defines logic as the "patterns that govern reality"... Well, hey - one of those patterns is that it's not possible to use logic to become enlightened So Leo is very logical, so logical that he knows where logic's limits are, which Athene apparantly doesn't. But regarding self-development -- and not enlightenment --... like understanding projection, emotions, where they come from, etc.. basically understaind simple cause-and-effect (=logic) is a powerful tool to understand your self on a conceptual level. It can't go deep enough to truly find your true self, but still, logic has its uses. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About choice: The more mindful you are of your ego and how it functions, the higher level of awareness you possess, the higher degree of previous subconsciouss programming that you have become conscious of, the more you are in control, and the more you do have a real choice. If your awareness is low, if you arent mindful, if you haven't studied yourself, if you haven't become conscious of any subconscious programming at all..., yes then the degree of 'real choice' is low. Yes, absolute "real choice" does not exist. But you can approximate it, that's for sure It's a balance. Yes, you have to embrace that you ultimately have no real choice, but at the same time, you have to approximate real choice... Hehe, ... This is two opposing thoughts: - Realize you ultimately have no real choice. - Realize that you can approximate real choice. Yet, both of them are true. The same with the "I am nothing"- and "I am everything"-feelings. ... If you only follow the "I have no real choice", and forget the opposing statement ... then you will become delusional, obviously, and you cannot reach true nondual enlightenment. ---- "And frankly, if you've had enough of the bullshit and the suffering, all those carefully weighed and nuanced nice-to-have ideals of yours, of a properly brandished badge of enlightenment, will go straight out the window, and anyone who insists on standing in your way will do so at their peril." I really cannot follow your perspective NTO. Or I mean, I can see what you mean, but I just can't follow it.. It doesn't align with my nature. For me, enlightenment should be done with love. If you've had enough of the suffering, then start loving yourself. That should be the first step to proper enlightenment.