Leo Gura

This is just silly. You're using kindergarten egoic thinking here. Ain't none of your human values universal. They aren't even planet-wide. They aren't even species-wide. They aren't even city-wide. They aren't even family-wide. Just because you become physically sick at rape, doesn't mean others do. You're really just speaking of yourself. But deluding yourself into believing you're speaking for the whole universe! It's insane! You don't kill ants because you have a desire to hurt ants. You simply kill ants as a by-product of being you. Likewise with rape. It's not about desiring to hurt others. It's about being a self. Your self happens to not like rape. Other selves do. Not sure how you intend to become enlightened clinging to all your human desires like that.

@electroBeam Yes, I said already that you are free to do whatever you want. Which means you can have morals. They just aren't grounded in anything. All that having morals means is that you have made some choices about how you want to play the game of life. And you live out those choices. That's all. Nothing more. Enjoy your rules. Just don't expect other people to follow them. Why should they? You made them up for you. And they will make up the opposite ones for themselves.

@Snick Yes, that's the right understanding. Even better when you can be conscious that Hitler is literally you. Then the compassion becomes real juicy.

@electroBeam Yes, they are deluded spiritual seekers. Dogma and concept is rampant in all spiritual teachings. As it must because spirituality cannot be transferred with words. Which is why Zen masters tell you: when you find the Buddha, kill him. Everything you think about spirituality when you first start the path will be proven wrong if you go deep enough. Because ego cannot understand true spirituality. Ego can only understand egoic spirituality. But we gotta start somehow. So don't worry too much about it. You just do the best you can to avoid all the ego traps and dogma.

Be careful not to let your ego use anything I've said here to justify its selfish ways. That would be ignorance. Nothing I've said here means anything.

@Mathew Pav Nice! A few points about 2-CB I've researched: Excellent for crazy intimate sex, I'm sure you can see why. Probably amazing potential for Tantric sex. Rectal administration is the ideal ROA for 2-CX compounds and mescaline. Requires 2/3rds the oral dose for same effect.

What's most important to realize is that all those "good" people who act moral and judge the rapists, terrorists, and Hitler's of the world, are going to suffering deeply for it. They incur bad karma. Because their judgments perpetuate ignorance and separation from God. See, none of you guys here are rapists (I hope), so that's not really an important topic. But plenty of you here like to judge rapists, thinking that your are superior to them, and you're doing proper spirituality. Well, you're not. That is the practical point of this whole discussion. Drop your superiority complex, and problem solved! Simple.

It hasn't changed anything. I've always realized that I am free to act like an animal. Doesn't mean I go around throwing my own feces at people. The more deeply I suffer, the lighter I tend to tread in the world. But for no reason. Not because I am good or because it is right. The more I become conscious of my own ignorance, the more tolerance I have for the ignorance of others. Murders, rapists, and thieves cannot helping doing what they do. It's not their call. It's God's call. But of course, don't tell them that! They will misunderstand it.

Here's some fun reading for ya about what goes on in Tibetan monasteries: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06/what-lies-beneath-the-robes-are-buddhist-monasteries-suitable-places-for-children-adele-wilde-blavatsky/

Just think this through: If you're a male monk in a monastery and you haven't had sex in 5 years. How horny will you be? How much will your body crave sex? A LOT! A LOT! A LOT! So you'll be easily tempted to go rape someone. Even if you're enlightened. Temptations are not really in your control. Also, note, there are some cultures in which rape is considered perfectly normal and appropriate. For example, certain Middle Eastern or Mongol cultures. They will kidnap and rape women, and then marry them. Part of their culture. It's been done that way for thousands of years. That's how you get yourself a good wife there.

No reason at all! You can hit yourself on the head with a hammer just for shits and giggles, just to see what it's like. Reasons don't matter. Reasons are things egos create. To say that "Humans have no good reasons to rape or murder each other, therefore they shouldn't", is very myopic and naive. Your mind will come up with thousands of good reasons. Even if you're enlightened. The most enlightened people in the world are still subject to their cultural programming, social norms, ignorance of many things, and closedmindedness. Enlightenment does not make you immune to mistakes.

No. Enlightenment means absolutely nothing. It's total freedom. If you want to give a fuck, you can! You can be an enlightened moralist. You can go preach about how everyone must be good. It would be totally groundless, but you're free do whatever the hell you want. You can go save all the poor kids in Africa, all the whales, and all the butterflies. It would be pointless and meaningless, but you can do it. They call it "liberation" for a reason. You are not liberated unless you're free to rape and murder whoever you want. Enlightenment means total liberation. Now... you'll say, "But why would I want to rape and murder anyone?" Well... who knows? Let's leave our options open. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. That would be a totally personal preference thing. But if you would, you wouldn't call it "wrong". Because "wrong" is an idea, nothing more. Now... you'll say, "But wouldn't it be bad if everyone went around thinking this way?" No! It would be meaningless, not bad. Because reality is meaningless. Regardless of what happens, it's meaningless. Meaning is a human invention. Could you build a civilization upon this? That is irrelevant. That's an ego question. Now... you might say, "But Leo, I don't like this. This is stupid." Well... who gives a shit what your ego likes? Welcome to reality, where nothing you want or think matters, except in your own mind. You're welcome to be a moralist. But only by deluding yourself. And don't think that you can be a moralist at peace. You will be deeply disturbed. You will not have Nirvana as a moralist. Because you keep insisting on delusion, keep insisting on clinging to your self, keep resisting God. And whoever resists God is a devil. So all moralists are devils. Of course they deny it. All devils deny they are devils. Which is what makes them devils. Being a devil is not wrong. It's just stupid. It's not even stupid. It just is. God is free to do whatever it wants. And it does. Everything possible before enlightenment is possible afterward. There is no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment in that sense.

Every teaching, every school, every method, has it's pros and cons. There are no safe methods to enlightenment. All of them are fraught with dozens of traps.

I'm making it complicated? You're the one making all those complicated distinctions and rules about right and wrong. My version is extremely simple: Absolute Infinite Nothingness. Total freedom. Anything goes. It couldn't be simpler or more beautiful.

Hehe, they cannot be killed! They are literally immortal for all of eternity.

@unknownworld Yes you can say the same. Which is why wise people don't debate but self-inquire. And the really wise ones don't bring this topic up in public at all. I have said too much. The wonders of God shall remain known only to itself.

@Dodo The glass of Nothingness is so full it's infinitely overflowing More than your heart can ever stand.

Guys, everything you're talking about is egoic human stuff! That's all well and good for life as a human, but it has nothing to do with Truth and enlightenment. You're totally underestimating how fucking radical enlightenment is. It's the total end of your life and reality. TOTAL! TOTAL, TOTAL, TOTAL. Nothing you cling to will survive. And all this stuff you're talking about is monkey-mind human bullshit. Investigate for yourselves. Please don't take my word for any of this. You must derive these insights for yourselves. This is not a belief system.

So your ego thinks. There's nothing obvious here at all. Those are all RELATIVE EGOIC judgments. All distinctions are groundless. That is the essence of reality and liberation. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Not even close. But at least I understand it conceptually. And I have experienced it for tiny whiles. A lot of folks here seem to be adamantly opposed to the mere idea of it. Which is a problem because it's gonna hold you back. You're clinging to paradigms of Judeo-Christian morality. That's not gonna fly in this work. I want you to grasp the full-Monty! Absolute groundlessness! The core of all of reality. The deepest essence of God. It's a beautiful thing to behold. It will make you so humble that you won't want to step on a fly. And yet, at the same time, you'll swat that fly to death in the blink of an eye when it annoys you. Such is life. Twisted to perfection.

Hehe... You guys are really struggling to grasp this. Good. It's a big hidden obstacle for you on this path. Enlightenment = total nihilism. It's so nihilistic it makes ordinary nihilism look like child's play. Nietzsche would be shitting his pants. Nihilism goes full circle into absolute love. Only when nothing has meaning or value, can everything be equally valued = unconditional love. This is deep stuff. You gotta think more existentially about it all. Relativism goes full-circle into absolutism. It's all absolutely relative! Which is why it's all love. As soon as you start to assign values, you've kill it. You've dropped into duality. And you better believe you will suffer for that. The only way unconditional love is possible is through total equality, otherwise known as, total nihilism. As soon as you say that one thing is more important or valuable than another, you've killed it. You've dropped into conditional love. God makes no distinctions with it's love. Which is why you're a mere human. God's flavor of love is a bit too radical for you. So you got the watered down, self-biased version. Your love is centered around your petty human valuations. But God don't give a shit about any of that. It loves to infinity.

Ah... but physical pain is not so easy to distinguish. If I draw a cartoon of Mohammad, that will cause a lot of suffering to some people in the world, and it will outrage some more than physical pain. Zen master's inflict a lot of physical pain on their students. A Zen master wouldn't hesitate to slap you hard across the face just to disprove your point. Some of the most loving people where assassinated or killed because their love caused deep suffering for those unenlightened folks who couldn't handle it. These loving people were literally seen as evil. You are making all sorts of distinctions here between physical vs psychological suffering which are totally arbitrary and of little importance. The vast majority of suffering is psychological, not physical. But even physical suffering you will create plenty of. You will crush thousands of insects with your shoes. The problem is that you're assuming there is some kind of objective standard for what is and isn't evil. Like there is a line drawn somewhere which says that physical pain is evil, therefore enlightened people will not do it. But there is no such line. The whole notion makes no sense at all. You're not yet aware that that line only exists as part of your ego, and nowhere else.

@Pierre No. That cannot help at all. Value doesn't exist. Neither does hierarchy. Nonduality means: No values No heirarchies No parts No meanings No good/evil No stories No levels of importance No immorality It's utterly groundless. To infinity.

All change creates change. You cannot have motion without destruction. This is a rock-bottom existential fact. To create one phenomena another must be destroyed. To create a human the energy and atoms must come from somewhere. They come from the destruction of other things. Every time you sit on a chair, your ass squashes and kills thousands of bacteria and cells. You just happen to not give a shit about them. To live you must kill thousands of plants and animals. You must kill billions of viruses and bacteria. You must pollute the external environment with your waste, trash, CO2, sweat, urine, etc. You must occupy physical space which is taken away from other creatures and immaterial objects. Everything you do requires material resources which only come from the destruction of your environment. And I haven't even started to enumerate the footprint of humanity as a whole on the environment! #CycleOfLife Have you ever taken a long road trip in your car? Then ever look at your bumper and windshield? How many insects did that road trip kill? 10? 30? 100? How many insects will you have killed by the time you're dead? Could you even count them? But of course all of this is conveniently ignored by the ego's relentless drive for self-survival. "Me at all costs!" Even for one atom to come into existence, another one must be destroyed or dislodged. You cannot move your hand through the air without destroying that particular configuration of the air. Now, you will say, "But who cares? That's just air!" Well, using that same logic, who cares if you're destroyed? That's just human flesh. It's no more valuable than a configuration of air molecules. The only one who it's valuable to, is you (well, and maybe your Mom, IF she's a good Mom ) You see how your perspective shapes absolutely everything? You are utterly biased toward your own selfish needs. You would destroy a configuration of air molecules without a second thought just by waving your ugly hands around. How callous of you! When you realize that there is no self, that there are no who's in existence, you will realize that you are no more important than a configuration of air molecules. Now that would be true morality. Now you're able to really see. Now you can finally be humble and tread the Earth lightly.

Well, for starters, your whole model of suffering is wrong. You're speaking about it as through someone is inflicting suffering on you. When in fact suffering is an activity you do. Buddha himself could not stop inflicting suffering on others because "suffering of the other" is not in the Buddha's control, but occurring in the mind of the unenlightened other, caused by the other's ignorance, not by Buddha's actions. You know how much suffering an enlightened master will cause in the world? Tons! Because to the ignorant, the kindest gesture of love will be interpreted as pure evil and cause them much suffering. Have you noticed that the most loving people get killed the quickest? Why is that you think? Because they spread love, or because they spread suffering? To the ignorant, is love not suffering? Isn't that why you suffer from loving "evil"?