Leo Gura

No! Lol Hitler, Bin Laden, al Baghdadi, Atilla the Hun, and Caligula also ran massive organizations. That is NOT systems thinking.

It does for me. I thought it did for you too.

I understand the idea. There is nothing to improve from the Absolute perspective. You're already perfect. But this is not mutually exclusive with personal development. You can and should do both. You don't need to be "flawed" in order to grow, learn, and evolve your lifestyle and modes of behavior. You can be a perfect human being, and still not know how to play the piano, and then decide to learn to play master piano. Wanting to learn to play master piano is not egotism, unless you make it such.

I guess they can be Red at super extremes, but I'm talking about mainstream feminism. Just like I would not classify PUA as Red but Orange, I would classify feminism as Green. Because feminism seeks the values of Green for the most part. I don't think your average feminist wants women to dominate men. She wants equality. And your average PUA wants to bang a bunch of hot girls (which is pure Orange).

Maybe so you don't die of excess alcohol consumption?

@SFRL PUA is mostly unhealthy Orange. An example of Red PUA would be a PUA who actually rapes or beats a woman. This isn't simply manipulative behavior, it's thuggish criminal behavior, which is Red. And I have met such PUAs. But most PUAs are not that low. They are mostly Orange. They will manipulate and lie, but within limits. The reason Julien got into hot water is because he was glorifying borderline Red behavior. And people rightly got outraged. Abusing and humiliating women is counter-productive to PUA, not to mention deeply unconscious, and terrible PR. Of course there are a lot of positives to Blue (especially relative to Red). I focused on negatives in the video because the point of talking about the stages is to help people see the limitations of each stage, so they can be motivated to transcend. If I had to choose between living in a Red or Blue society, I would choose Blue. I agree, the Medieval church was not as backwards as many people today believe. The Medieval church was trying to spread enlightenment, in a twisted way. Actualized.org is basically just a modern version of the Medieval church. Less focus on torture of heretics, more focus on psychedelics and yoga

@SFRL You're not quite grasping how Spiral stages work. They are not good or bad. Green is not supposed to be "good" or "evolved" or "better than" or immune to excess. Feminism is Green, AND there are healthy and unhealthy ways in which Green manifests. An unhealthy manifestation of Green does not knock it down to Orange or Red. It's just excessive Green. Men who are stuck in Orange have a really hard time understanding feminism. Too much judgment clouds their vision. Feminism is simply the desire of women to break down the traditional alpha-male value dominate hierarchy and gain parity with males. Women want to be heard after centuries of being ignored and shut up. Sometimes they take it too far. Without feminism, you get stuff like Saudi Arabia not letting women drive cars or open bank accounts. So feminism is very necessary for building a more fair society. And if you were a repressed woman, you'd likely resonate with feminism. Imagine your daughter not being able to vote or drive a car simply because your tradition forbids it. Not very nice. Imagine your daughter getting raped, but then her testimony in court against the rapist doesn't count, because she is a woman, and a man's testimony carries 5x more weight by law, so the rapist goes free. Would you be cool with that? How would that make you feel if you were the woman who got raped? Maybe that would make you a feminist?

A deep stage Yellow strategic thinker in action

Feminism is Green.

@Rilles Shoo with you!

@Sea A stage Yellow person is never going to revert back to stage Blue. It's sort of like leaving a cult. Once you are conscious enough, re-joining a cult cannot work on you. For example, there is no way that Albert Einstein or Barrack Obama could become an ISIS Jihadist (unless maybe his brain is damaged). It would never happen because he's too conscious for that. You're not going to see a stage Orange society revert back to stage Red. America is never going to become a theocracy like Saudi Arabia, for example. Etc. Temporary regression is possible in the sense that one may still not be stabilized at one's level. For example, America leaned Green with electing Obama, and then regressed back down to Blue/Orange with electing Trump. But this was not a change in America's level of development, it was just a difference of expression. America is evolving up the Spiral. America is not going to be Blue in 100 years as much as it will be Green. So to say that there is no directionality would be very misleading. There will never be a time when slavery and Jim Crow laws get re-instated. That ship has long sailed for Americans. When you are angry/fearful, you will express lower stages than when you are joyful and confident. So there's that additional wrinkle. For example, if America experiences a new great depression, or a nuclear attack, then the population will be angry and fearful, so they will skew more conservative, more Blue, more authoritarian. BTW, Clare Graves' understanding of Spiral Dynamics was itself limited because he was not a nondual mystic. He didn't really understand the connection between Spiral Dynamics and Consciousness. My explanations of Spiral Dynamics are not just a parroting of someone else's theory, but my understanding of it, which is informed by my nondual experiences. And very importantly, being at higher levels is not "good" or "better". Turquoise is no "better" than Red. At the highest levels of nonduality you will have unconditional acceptance for all stages, all "evils", all ignorance. You, as God, are EVERYTHING, with no better than, worse than, or lesser. A human is not better than an ape or a dinosaur or a pig. Yes, Spiral Dynamics can easily be abused, like any model. As far as models go, Spiral Dynamics is a very complex and nuanced one, with lots of subtlety, which can easily be misapplied unless you study it very closely. There is a tendency to oversimplify Spiral Dynamics. To apply Spiral Dynamics properly you need to be a solid stage Yellow. Lower stages will tend to misapply it. Is Spiral Dynamics limited? Of course. Is Spiral Dynamics the Absolute Truth? Of course not. Is Spiral Dynamics helpful for growing yourself and your society? Very much so, if you apply it carefully. Can Spiral Dynamics be abused to justify all sorts of judgments and evils? Of course.

@lmfao That is hilarious Just be careful not to turn it into a stereotype of all Muslims.

Pretty much anything you see on Fox News

It's a tricky topic. It's hard to judge from our vantage point who was more advanced, Rome/Greece vs the Christian empire. The Middle Ages were not as dark as is popularly assumed. Don't forget, up to 45% of the Roman population were slaves. It's difficult for us to imagine just how barbaric and cruel life was in these ancient civilizations. Sure, homosexuality might have been accepted, but you could also be thrown into a pit of lions for some random reason, or your wife raped on the side of a bridge crossing. If a Roman city was sacked, all the men were slaughtered and all the women and children sold into slavery. Christianity did bring about a certain degree of moral order.

@Joseph Maynor You speak of things you've yet to realize. Finger pointing to the moon.

@Joseph Maynor I never said Turquoise doesn't act. At the deepest levels of nonduality all action is pointless. You could just shoot yourself and it would be okay. It's all perfect. Teaching is pointless of course. But in practice you will probably just carry on with life, for shits and giggles, and probably teach. The world cannot be improved in any way at all. It is an Absolute singularity, and everything is already contained within it for eternity. But this is not something that can be explained, and it certainly sits outside of Spiral Dynamics so I don't even talk about it. You will only discover this for yourself, at the very deepest levels of nondual consciousness. At which point, you will no longer need me or anyone else to guide you.

@Recursoinominado That's right. You cannot get to unconditional acceptance through intellectualization or belief. You need to start having some nondual experiences, mystical experiences. Psychedelics or yoga/meditation is the way. But practicing active non-judgment is also very helpful.

Yes, this is actually a big obstacle for men, because most men are so preoccupied with appearing alpha. From all the criticism, judgment, and resistance that I see about Green, it feels like 50% of it is coming from males who have not sufficiently embodied their manhood, so they are insecure, and try to act macho, thereby demonizing Green. Which is why I said about stage Blue: embrace your feminine side. This will also apply to stage Orange males. The power of embracing your feminine side is enormous. To a juvenile man or "bro", Green will feel soft and weak. I once recommended a Matt Kahn video to a PUA coaching client of mine who was stuck in stage Orange. It was a really important video about love. He refused to listen to the advice because Matt Kahn came off as "too soft and feminine". The striving to be alpha and macho is really toxic. I was basically unable to coach him out of his issues because he was so insistent on acting out Orange to the max. He just couldn't fathom the value of Green. And yet, all of the answers to his problems lay in Green and beyond. The problem with Orange is that it's extremely shallow. There is no satisfaction to be found there.

@zikzak I have not mentioned it yet.

@zikzak I wouldn't say it's better per se, it's a bit overpowered.

@Erlend K Just be mindful of applying 21st century ideals to people from 1000 years ago. You probably have no idea what life was like back then.

@How to be wise Well, of course it's been around. The Greeks were famously open to homosexuality and pedophilia. I meant it's a new evolutionary wrinkle in modern culture. The last 50 years have seen a huge change in public perception of homosexuality. A really big shift occurred even just since the 90's. Even many Republicans these days are starting to accept homosexuality, which would have been shocking 50 years ago. Our culture is changing rapidly. Which is why stage Blue feels under attack by progressives like Obama and Hillary.

@Dovahkiin Nah... the ideological battles you see between feminism and the men's right movement is mostly a battle between Green and Orange, not Blue. That's a secular battle. Absolutism doesn't have to be about God and religion, but it usually is. Stubbornness and closedmindedness is not exclusive to Blue. It tends to manifest all along the Spiral in various forms. Green people can be fairly ideological about equality and civil rights issues. For example, Green Peace or PETA. That doesn't make them Blue. They are solid Green. Green, like any stage, can get dysfunctional at its extremes. The key difference between Blue and Green is that Green is against rigid hierarchies and focused on equality, building human bonds, sharing feelings. Blue is focused more on law and order and tradition.

Enough nondual posturing.