Leo's brilliant answer to my question about hell

[Someone here]

 This is a Q&A between me and Leo in November 2020...about infinity and hell .

Me: Leo why does it have to be this way? I had a crazy nightmare last night I realized what you are talking about. Consciousness can materialize everything imaginable. This is a total mind killer. In the dream I saw how there is no limit to what can be created by consciousness.. Why just why? Infinity fine I get it but still just fucking why?!! Who is controlling this? There is no limit to what can created and experienced.. But why  God is such a fool to use his infinite power to create hell? 

Would you address this?  I want to understand why it is such that consciousness will dream hell if it's infinitely good and infinitely intelligent? Is it being dreamed randomly like consciousness can't help itself but explode all it's potential? Is there not a choice for consciousness to create only a limited section of its capabilities? Why am I a fool as God to create hell and torture myself? What's the point? 

 

Leo: Consciousness likes to dream. That's what it does.

Why would there be any limits upon what one can dream? The nature of dreaming is that it's unlimited.

You are still judging good vs bad. From the POV of Infinite Consciousness all dreams are valid, interesting, and part of the whole. God is not going to exclude stuff nor eliminate stuff just because a human doesn't like it.

You can't really appreciate how unlimited and powerful Consciousness is unless you experience some of the nightmares it can dream up.

Your question is basically the age-old question of: If God exists, why would he allow evil?

To which the answer is, God sees no evil, but you do since you are attached to finite forms.

Reality is far too profound of a thing to make logic sense to a finite and fearful human mind. To understand God you must surrender all your judgments and attachments.

God is infinite imagination, but you are asking God to be something less than that because it makes you uncomfortable. Well, sorry, but God has bigger priorities than you personal comfort.

[Breakingthewall]

It's simple, histories about god and imagination are not needed. the substance is always the substance of reality. the form changes in infinite evolutionary cycles. nothing is good or bad, it is real. This is the only category that exists. Beneath the surface, everything is the real substance, and this is the only thing that matters, form is just form. It is real, but because of its substance, not because of its form, the form is irrelevant, hell and heaven are the same: existence. Knowing everything is easy, just know the substance, then you will know the reality. 

Edited March 5 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's simple, histories about god and imagination are not needed. the substance is always the substance of reality. the form changes in infinite evolutionary cycles. nothing is good or bad, it is real. This is the only category that exists. Beneath the surface, everything is the real substance, and this is the only thing that matters, form is just form. It is real, but because of its substance, not because of its form, the form is irrelevant, hell and heaven are the same: existence. Knowing everything is easy, just know the substance, then you will know the reality. 

Good post as always.  I don't disagree. 

However..I'm struggling to understand the direct link between what you've said in OP . Can you break it down to me more ?

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Good post as always.  I don't disagree. 

However..I'm struggling to understand the direct link between what you've said in OP . Can you break it down to me more ?

Thanks! What op?

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Thanks! What op?

Sorry that was a typo.

I meant the link between your post and my OP.

[Breakingthewall]

The question that Leo answers is why consciousness does such a thing as creating hell, Leo says that consciousness likes to dream and since it has no limit, at a given moment it does something like hell or evilness, for fun or whatever. 

What I said is that I don't think it works like that, there is not something like a conciousness that do things like create hells or paradises, reality exist given the absence of limitation, this is pure existence, living intelligence of total depth, this is organized into patterns automatically, since being intelligence and being alive, it is what it does.

These patterns are perfect and absolutely intelligent, like an atom for example, and they are always cyclical as it seems. Reality is not an illusion created to trick an ego and play hide-and-seek. Can you think of a sillier idea? is not easy! Material reality is real, it is the emanation of reality let's say mystique. These cycles self-organize into more complex cycles, always with one quality: perfection.

Since intelligence is total and life is also unstoppable, it follows its course like a river, and as if it were an infinite kaleidoscope, the patterns are organized towards greater complexity. If a bull has horns to fight for females, it is pointing to complexity and perfection, if humans are genocidal, the same. Cycles are created and destroyed, and the destruction can be in a hospital or in Autchwitz, reality does not care, it only seeks more complexity, it is its unstoppable nature. Observe a jungle and you will understand more or less what the essence of reality is.

But all this is quite indifferent in spiritual work, we do not seek to know what things reality does, but rather to open ourselves to its substance, to unlimited intelligence and life. That is what we are, the form is temporary, it is real insofar as its substance is real, but it is irrelevant. Once you open yourself to the living infinity it is clear. There is only one thing to know: what is the living infinite, that is, you. What it is is something that is not definable, but not because it is very mystical and sacred, but because to define it you have to know what it is. You cannot define the sensation of being thirsty if you have never been thirsty, you can say something approximate, but it does not make sense, you must be thirsty and then it is obvious, in this it is the same, but its not a sensation, is an openess. the limitless living is existence. It is alive because it is unlimited, and it is intelligence because it is alive. The work is to open the door of the ego and see constantly what we are, because anything else is suffering 

 

Edited March 6 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

Wtf are "patterns "?

Existence is not a collection of impersonal unconscious dumb atoms bouncing around in a void ..it's self aware ..conscious..sensible..sentient. 

You are denying your own sentience. 

Edited March 6 by Someone here

[Someone here]

 

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Wtf are "patterns "?

Existence is not a collection of impersonal unconscious dumb atoms bouncing around in a void ..it's self aware ..conscious..sensible..sentient. 

You are denying your own sentience. 

It's intelligence alive. conciousness, sensations, appears in the existence. Existence is infinite depth, just that, and this implies everything else

 

Just now, Someone here said:

 

You are the absolute existence, or better, what you are is that. Creation and all of that doesn't matter at all if you really realize what you are

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's intelligence alive. conciousness, sensations, appears in the existence. Existence is infinite depth, just that, and this implies everything else

Are you saying that these are equivalent to patterns?  Because I don't get the sense that patterns are conscious agencies.  Do you consider yourself a conscious agent ?or are you a "no-selfer"?

I need to see an actual example of what you call "patterns" because you overuse this word ..

To understand a cat.. you have to observe the cat. You will not understand much if you only describe that cat or show up a picture. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Are you saying that these are equivalent to patterns?  Because I don't get the sense that patterns are conscious agencies.  Do you consider yourself a conscious agent ?or are you a "no-selfer"?

I need to see an actual example of what you call "patterns" because you overuse this word ..

To understand a cat.. you have to observe the cat. You will not understand much if you only describe that cat or show up a picture. 

A pattern is a form that existence takes, anything, for example a thought, or an atom, or whatever. You can say that they are imaginary or real, it is the same. Reality is real, therefore the patterns have real and infinite substance, and for me it is that they are real. What we are as humans is patterns upon patterns, but they are all the same substance and we can at any given moment transcend all form and open ourselves to formless substance, to total living emptiness. That's the point of spirituality, you do it many times and at a certain point you stop identifying with form and you identify with existence.

The patterns are real, you can transcend them but they come back, they are solid. It seems that reality is cyclical and organized in infinite synchronic patterns, intelligent and alive. This is mental deduction that I'm doing, what is real is the openness to the substance, the infinity alive,  the rest is deduction based on the perception of what that moment is, having a clear constant level of openness and moments of openness, let's say almost total, since there is always some form and the form closes.

Openness is not enlightenment, enlightenment as they define it is more a change of perspective, not identifying with form and identifying with existence, although the perception of its flow is quite veiled. By being truly identified with existence, opening becomes easy, but it depends on the moment, there are levels.

Being identified with existence isn't possible to do at will, it's something that happens in a given moment, and I think that many different paths can lead you to there, contemplation, forced opening with psychedelic, etc

Edited March 6 by Breakingthewall

[theleelajoker]

@Breakingthewall

The points you make strongly resonate with me. Especially this below.

Quote

But all this is quite indifferent in spiritual work, we do not seek to know what things reality does, but rather to open ourselves to its substance, to unlimited intelligence and life. That is what we are, the form is temporary

 

At the same time, I wonder:

• Quote

  These cycles self-organize into more complex cycles, always with one quality: perfection.

  I don't understand that. I figured perfection is just a human concept - how and why does "consciousness" care about it? For more complex, I get the idea.

 

• Quote

  The question that Leo answers is why consciousness does such a thing as creating hell, Leo says that consciousness likes to dream and since it has no limit, at a given moment it does something like hell or evilness, for fun or whatever. 

  What I said is that I don't think it works like that, there is not something like a conciousness that do things like create hells or paradises, reality exist given the absence of limitation, this is pure existence, living intelligence of total depth, this is organized into patterns automatically, since being intelligence and being alive, it is what it does.

  These patterns are perfect and absolutely intelligent, like an atom for example, and they are always cyclical as it seems. Reality is not an illusion created to trick an ego and play hide-and-seek.

  Two questions re this:

1. "Forming patterns automatically" --> do you mean in a deterministic way? Or it just does it because there is no choice doing it, but only how  to do it (meaning freedom of choice is there)

2. You say that consciousness is not creating this reality in terms of playing a divine game for fun, but because it was "just" another step towards more complexity in its river of flow of creating ever more complexity? 

I was always attached to the idea of hide and seek in a divine play, but you got me wondering.  If there is less (or none at all) divine play element in reality, and it is just another layer of complexity, what does it mean for me personally? Before I try having "fun" in this play, and try to rediscover what I forgot, awaken etc.. 

Now I am simply a tool in creating a new layer of complexity. Sure, reality makes it fun and interesting for me as a player in terms of incentives (love, sex, food, friendships, excitement, drama etc.)  but in my mind, my personal life purpose  shifted from "playing" towards "creating" and from "being" to "serving". (although those terms are not excluding each other)

Edited March 9 by theleelajoker

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

You say that consciousness is not creating this reality in terms of playing a divine game for fun, but because it was "just" another step towards more complexity in its river of flow of creating ever more complexity? 

I don't know that for sure, it's just my perception. As I said, the objective for me is the opening to unlimited reality, then perceptions and deductions occur, but all this enters the realm of speculation.

It is best not to believe anything anyone says, and even not to believe what you deduce yourself. It is irrelevant, what is important is the openness. This is not knowing or understanding, but being in total depth. but this being inevitably creates a vision of how reality is organized, for me the important thing is that this vision, if it is inevitable to have it, is not an obstacle to what is real, which is openness. For me the vision: I am God imagining reality,  blocks, closes.

[theleelajoker]

Ok thank you, your reply helps me understand.  IMO, interesting points I am gonna let sink in. In particular your perspective "I am God imagining reality,  blocks, closes."

Openness to unlimited reality for you is then to be present, to fully experience without judgement, to have none or minimum resistance to what is (or to accept if you did resist sth as it is also part of the experience)?

Hope it's ok for me to ask but IMO these topics have a complexity where it is easy to assume or to misunderstand.  Therefore I am trying to get a proper understanding of what you're saying, what you mean by certain words and terms. Also, non-native speaker here ; )

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Ok thank you, your reply helps me understand.  IMO, interesting points I am gonna let sink in. In particular your perspective "I am God imagining reality,  blocks, closes."

Openness to unlimited reality for you is then to be present, to fully experience without judgement, to have none or minimum resistance to what is (or to accept if you did resist sth as it is also part of the experience)?

Hope it's ok for me to ask but IMO these topics have a complexity where it is easy to assume or to misunderstand.  Therefore I am trying to get a proper understanding of what you're saying, what you mean by certain words and terms. Also, non-native speaker here ; )

I just say my experience, maybe everything that I say is wrong, but I dedicate a lot of time to the openess. 

Let's see, what I mean by openess is that what we are is reality, and our perception is limited, it is closed. Let's say that we are a certain pattern of reality that translates into an experience with certain characteristics. If we were a dog it would be other characteristics. Since this particular configuration creates, by contrast with its peers, language, learning, etc., a self that is aware of itself, that attributes certain characteristics to itself, this self at a given moment wants to penetrate reality and unlock it.

One fundamental thing that the self sees is that what it blocks is the self itself, so it sets the goal of dissolving itself to stop blocking, eliminate all identifications and finally give up control. This allows reality to stop perceiving itself as limited, as something concrete. it becomes fluid, without limits.

This does not mean that you understand anything or know anything, since understanding or knowing is a matter of the self, but it allows existence to perceive itself as a living flow, inexhaustible creative intelligence by definition because it has no limits. where does this lead? I don't know but the deeper it is, the more life and the more beauty is perceived. In moments of total depth you realize what you are, an abyss in which existence arise, and the abyss and the arising are one. It's impossible the absence of limits without existence, are the same.

Others will say: your perception is false, you are the immutable witness and everything else is illusion. but for me that differentiates between witness and illusion. and they go further and say: you have created the illusion to experience love. I don't see this even remotely like that, I see that the abyss exists because it is literally infinite, and at the same moment in which it exists, that is, always, everything that can exist exists. It is multiple because there are infinite bubbles or perspectives, and one because it is a synchronic whole, which being infinite implies absolute perfection, but these are visions, deductions. It is better to forget them and have a single objective: opening to total infinity.

When you open yourself to total infinity, even 2 seconds, one thing is obvious: this is all there is to know or see, the substance of reality, the rest is irrelevant. Reality, what we are, is at the same time the total infinity, the unfathomable abyss, and a concrete bubble of perception, and all concrete bubbles of perception. understandable? I would say no

[theleelajoker]

Quote

When you open yourself to total infinity, even 2 seconds, one thing is obvious: this is all there is to know or see, the substance of reality, the rest is irrelevant. Reality, what we are, is at the same time the total infinity, the unfathomable abyss, and a concrete bubble of perception, and all concrete bubbles of perception. understandable? I would say n

Maybe need some psychedelics first