Gender and sex. How the f you enlighten people?

[Alta]

Person A: I thought a woman is a female human just like a Lioness is a female lion, a mare is a female horse... etc...When did that change?

Person B : As people have come to recognize that gender is a more expansive and complex concept than previously understood, they have also come to realize that many of the preconceived notions about gender are not rooted in reality. This has led to a greater understanding that these concepts are highly fragile and can be easily deconstructed.

This newfound understanding has led to a greater appreciation for the complexity and diversity of gender, and a recognition that it is possible to move beyond the limited and narrow definitions that have traditionally governed our understanding of gender.

Person A : you can keep your word salad to yourself. thanks

Person B : If you do not understand the topic, it is best to refrain from asking questions whose answers you may not be able to comprehend, so as to avoid confusion.

Person A : A wise man once told me that if you can't teach as subject then you don't truly understand it.

Person B : No matter how wise the teacher may be, if the student is not open and willing to be taught, there is no master who can teach him.

So as you can see the willingness and openness of the student plays a crucial role in the success of the teaching process.

Person A : Oh I'm open to being taught. You just don't make any sense. You write essays to basically say you don't know anything. Which is fine. Just keep scrolling.

Person B : If you have any questions or would like more information about the topics, please let me know. I am happy to provide a more indepth explanation or delve further into any aspect of my previous response. Just let me know which specific parts of my answer you would like more information on, and I will do my best to provide clarity.

Person A : At what point did the woman lose it's definition based reproductive biology to become a costume that can be donned by anyone? If it is a costume then what stops anyone from taking it on or off whenever it benefits them?

Person B : People are starting to realize that gender is a social construct which is not tied to any inherent basis and that biological sex is separate from gender. This understanding has led to the current prevalence of gender issues. Some individuals may feel that they do not conform to the expectations of their assigned gender and may need to explore their true selves deeply in order to understand their own feelings and experiences.

It can be difficult for others to understand and accept that someone who is biologically male, for example, may feel significantly different from the expected "standard" masculine identity. This is because our beliefs about gender and sex can create dogma and almost insurmountable barriers that prevent people from seeing that someone can feel like a woman while being in a male body. Again, remember that gender and sex are two different things, female and woman are two different things.

In many societies, gender and sex are conflated and assumed to be the same thing. However, as mentioned earlier, gender and sex are actually distinct constructs. Gender is a social construct that refers to the roles, behaviors, and attributes that a society considers appropriate for men and women, while sex refers to the biological characteristics that define males, females.

I've heard someone ekhem say "a woman is a female human being" but it doesn't make any sense. Its a circular logic because it relies on the assumption that the two terms are synonymous and that one cannot exist without the other.

Person A : You're forced to dance around a question because you have no answer. You could just accept that but your pride won't allow that i suppose.

Person B : It is not a matter of pride. It is true that there is no single, universal definition of womanhood or manhood, and I am not attempting to dance around this fact. Instead, my comment was intended to explain the complexity of the concept and provide a detailed answer that

complies with its varied interpretations. You may not fully understand me or agree with me, but that doesn't mean that I don't have an answer or that I'm trying to avoid the question.

It takes immense responsibility to dig deep into the complexities of life and to attempt to answer deep questions. Understanding requires time and effort, and it is wise to accept that we do not have simple answers for everything.

I understand that this is not a simple or straightforward topic, but I appreciate your willingness to engage in this conversation.

Person A : oh there's a definition and there's multiple ways to clearly differentiate between men and women. You just don't accept it. You think sexes are costumes.

Person B : I understand why you think that gender and sex are synonymous and I respect your opinion. However, I would like to challenge this assumption by providing evidence and facts that suggest otherwise.

Gender as a Social Construct: Examining Gender Identity in Different Societies by Ruth N. López Turley

Gender Identity: The Role of Socialization by Jennifer L. Martin and Emily K. Miller

I put a fair bit of effort to ensure that our talk went with mutual respect, and I provided you with research based on reliable sources. I urge you to take the time to review the info, and I am happy to provide more if you want.

[Bobby_2021]

Biology is a social construction.

Sex is a social construction.

Male/Female is a social construction. 

Male and female are just as arbitrary labels as man or a woman is. 

1 hour ago, Alta said:

In many societies, gender and sex are conflated and assumed to be the same thing. However, as mentioned earlier, gender and sex are actually distinct constructs

Gender and sex are not that different as you think. Both are pure social constructs and labels. 

You can literally make up anything you want. Tadaaa

[AdrianBartan]

This talk about gender is annoying.

If you feel the need to express your gender do it under whatever umbrella term you want. 

The problem with that is practicability related to interactions with other people.

We have inherent in us a way to make patterns and do read people based on previous experiences or social norms. 

If you are a woman (biologically born) but look like a man or dress in a way that I do not understand, I`m confused about how to act near you, wants preferences, topics of discussion etc. 

So that means I need to invest time to understand what and who you are since you are something that is unfamiliar to me or to anybody else, you want to be unique then do it, but expect to be alone. 

Social norms or uniforms have roles they are not random inventions. 

If you meet some stereotypical man or woman (think of any example you like, think about a conservative type), then you focus on their character, personality, and sense of humor. You kinda have the feeling that you already know something about the other person, then you discover step by step, which is more fun and engaging. 

If you meet an allover the place gender expression person you are always starting from zero.  

The key is always to do it with class, do not over-express, be stereotypical but with a twist, do not add too much otherwise you will make a salad. 

[Osaid]

What is this post exactly? The title doesn't make sense. 

[AdrianBartan]

@Osaid I think the question is how you change people's opinions about gender.

My response is not to be crazy and overexpressed, we are afraid of drastic changes that we do not understand (the root problem is fear, fix the fear, fix the openness to understanding). 

We all know deep inside that gender/sex is a social construct but it is not inherently a bad thing it keeps society functioning in an orderly way. 

I can make an analogy you can express yourself with tattoos:

have one/two classy looks cool, something that is related to you, hard to notice, it gives you a flavor to your personality.

have 50, with one on the face, 5 quotes, a butterfly, a dragon, 5 starts etc. it makes you look crazy and unstable, now I`m more inclined to not talk to you and reject tattoos altogether and not care about any tattoo theory. 

[Osaid]

4 hours ago, AdrianBartan said:

I think the question is how you change people's opinions about gender.

Oh, I get it now. Thanks.

IMO, Person B should have ended the conversation after Person A said "you can keep your word salad to yourself. thanks", as per their own advice:  "No matter how wise the teacher may be, if the student is not open and willing to be taught, there is no master who can teach him."

Edited January 5, 2023 by Osaid

[AdrianBartan]

@Osaid Yeah you are right but in this conversation the B person is not wise at all :)))

A correct question is this one:

- What do you find beautiful about the opposite gender that you can express in yourself?

Studies are stupid in these types of conversations because we are talking about emotions, not rationality, or we talk in a post-rational way.

That also means that person B, has no experience with gender at all, and not his own ideas. 

[Osaid]

16 minutes ago, AdrianBartan said:

Yeah you are right but in this conversation the B person is not wise at all :)))

I didn't say that person B was wise. My point was that person A should have stopped the conversation because person B is not willing to change their mind.

Unless, you meant to say person A is not wise. Which could be valid.

 

[AdrianBartan]

@Osaid  You mixed the person A and B in your previous post

[Osaid]

10 minutes ago, AdrianBartan said:

You mixed the person A and B in your previous post

Oh oops, lol. Fixed it now.

[Alta]

@AdrianBartan I think it's important to be able to express our gender however we want to, without being limited by social norms. Gender is fluid, it's up to us to make sure we are open and clear about who we are, and if we don't fit into anyone else's pre-conceived notions of gender then that's not our responsibility. Everyone's individual experience is different, and that should be celebrated, not suppressed. 

As the time passes the ideal would be to create a world where gender roles and categories are not put upon individuals at all, thereby allowing people to be respectful to one another and interact without relying on a gender binary. This could potentially lead to a more accepting and respectful society. To achieve this, those who identify with a certain gender must accept their true selves, without being confined by the use of outward labels. They must delve deeper into their identity and come to terms with the fact that no label can define who they are. After more acceptance and understanding of gender fluidity occurs, the idea of gender should be completely eradicated. Using gender labels feeds the ego the false notion that we are separate selves instead of part of a larger whole. It's only through raising consciousness and understanding of our interconnectedness that we can begin to let go of our attachment to labels and preconceived ideas about gender. By getting rid of the notion of gender entirely, we can come to appreciate everyone for the unique and special individuals that they are, without having any labels attached.

[Thought Art]

Idk, there is socially constructed aspects to these things but there is also differences between men and woman. A vagina isn’t a social construct. Nor the natural strength of men compared to women. 
 

Gender roles, clothing, etc are constructs to a certain degree. Identity is a construct. 
 

There is nothing wrong with being trans, or Cis, or non-binary. 
 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Thought Art

[Alta]

@Thought Art Our minds are deeply influenced by the collective elements of society which, if left unchecked, can lead to a collective self-deception and an inability to distinguish between reality and fiction. The components of society are interconnected and mutually reinforce each other in a circular fashion, making it difficult to assess their objectivity. 

This is why people often confuse gender and sex, and this confusion is the root of the problem. However, its possible to go even deeper and consider that even physical attributes such as genitalia do not ultimately exist.

[Bobby_2021]

48 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

A vagina isn’t a social construct.

False.

[AdrianBartan]

@Alta

6 hours ago, Alta said:

@AdrianBartan I think it's important to be able to express our gender however we want to, without being limited by social norms. Gender is fluid, it's up to us to make sure we are open and clear about who we are, and if we don't fit into anyone else's pre-conceived notions of gender then that's not our responsibility. Everyone's individual experience is different, and that should be celebrated, not suppressed. 
 

Read again your topic title, you asked how you f you enlighten people, if you want to do that then follow what I told you or be alone.

6 hours ago, Alta said:

@AdrianBartan 
As the time passes the ideal would be to create a world where gender roles and categories are not put upon individuals at all, thereby allowing people to be respectful to one another and interact without relying on a gender binary. This could potentially lead to a more accepting and respectful society. To achieve this, those who identify with a certain gender must accept their true selves, without being confined by the use of outward labels. They must delve deeper into their identity and come to terms with the fact that no label can define who they are. After more acceptance and understanding of gender fluidity occurs, the idea of gender should be completely eradicated. Using gender labels feeds the ego the false notion that we are separate selves instead of part of a larger whole. It's only through raising consciousness and understanding of our interconnectedness that we can begin to let go of our attachment to labels and preconceived ideas about gender. By getting rid of the notion of gender entirely, we can come to appreciate everyone for the unique and special individuals that they are, without having any labels attached.

This is wrong and just a supposition, it is not tested and you cannot make definitive arguments based on it. What society can be if we fully express whatever you want to express all the time or by getting rid of labels or genders? 

Understand if you want to change someone's mind is not about you! is about the other person

[AdrianBartan]

@Thought Art Social construct vagina is:" how you feel having a vagina", society says you must feel this way but you cannot.

For most people what society has constructed for them works, for some no.

 

[Thought Art]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

False.

Okay then I now have a vagina 

like a physical hole with a womb and everything. I can give birth and the whole jam. Just cuz I socially changed my identity.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

5 hours ago, Alta said:

@Thought Art Our minds are deeply influenced by the collective elements of society which, if left unchecked, can lead to a collective self-deception and an inability to distinguish between reality and fiction. The components of society are interconnected and mutually reinforce each other in a circular fashion, making it difficult to assess their objectivity. 

This is why people often confuse gender and sex, and this confusion is the root of the problem. However, its possible to go even deeper and consider that even physical attributes such as genitalia do not ultimately exist.

To me this is obvious, 

but there’s a bit of paradox at play. I am playing devils advocate with you folks.

people are mostly just constructing new identity. Which is fine, but don’t judge people who believe there are two genders. It’s all a construct whether there is two or more…. 
 

There IS good reason for the constructs that exist… that should be noticed too. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Thought Art

[Alta]

@AdrianBartan Absolutely. I agree that it is impossible to make definitive arguments without testing and examining a situation.

What I am proposing is that, by fostering an environment of acceptance and understanding of gender fluidity, we could potentially create a more respectful and appreciative society. We can provide a platform of support, respect and openness, where people can be accepted as their full and unique selves without labels, and without the pressure to conform to a certain gender. This environment of understanding and respect can be the foundation of a more connected, accepting and compassionate society, where everyone is valued for who they are without superficial gender distinctions. 

We can choose to use our free speech to express love and understanding, rather than hatred and discrimination. The key is to create a social environment of inclusion and understanding, where people are encouraged and accepted to be their true selves. No one is inherently evil or malicious, though it may seem like it. Everyone has the capacity for good, and sometimes people make choices that may lead to negative consequences for themselves and others. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and must be held accountable for their choices. Ultimately, we must strive to be tolerant and act with understanding in order to create a more peaceful world. We must remember that everyone is a human being, and they deserve to be treated with respect, regardless of any negative actions they have engaged in

[Alta]

@Thought Art Oh yeah go on! It was tricky for me to understand the deeper stuff, but eventually it clicks when people continue on challenging my words, some insights become obvious, helps me to fill in the gaps