Posted May 2, 2022 @Preety_India Hey I just read your journal on borderline as to be honest the relationship that I mentioned earlier on in this thread left me with some unanswered questions and I was curious to find out your perspective. First, I wanted to apologize to you. In this thread I gave you some opposition because it seemed that you were questioning my story or invalidating my experience and I didn't appreciate that. Now I realize my wording may have been too painful to read and I'm sorry about that. Second, I wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts on the interaction between bipolar and borderline in your journal thread. I am diagnosed bipolar myself and although I had thought of the interactions before, your commentary was incredibly insightful to read and made me understand why the relationship failed on a deeper level than I had previously. Third, I'd like to make myself a little more vulnerable on the topic of that relationship as I think it's only right after I have benefited from reading your thread : When I was in that relationship it seemed like there was nothing that could satisfy her. It seemed that stabilizing the relationship constantly required me to be operating at 100%, firing on all cylinders. It seemed that I was not only expected to solve every logistical problem imaginable but also be able to almost read her mind, solve the potential emotional problems that could arise before they even did. A real nightmare for most, a fun problem to work out for me. The way the relationship ended is that I had noticed she would cycle me through happy - angry - detached - happy over and over and over again. When I fully became conscious of that, I felt cheated in a way as if all this was artificial and she was toying with me. So I observed... and the next time she came back all giddy after a few days of pretty much ignoring me, I didn't play into her game. She noticed instantly, got extremely angry and hung up on me (this was on the phone). I had told her in the past that I wouldn't tolerate her hanging up on me (she had done it in the past). From that point on I decided that she would call me back and apologize or it would be over. 3 days went by and she didn't call. This was now a day where we previously had plans to see each other so I called her and asked if she still wanted to see each other. She said yes, her voice was trembling. I was expecting an apology or a break up, I got a break up. Thanks again and I hope this was the kind of testimony you were expecting. Unfortunately I haven't decided if this is my best or worst relationship yet and I'm a bit afraid that I never will Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) @thibault she is most probably not bpd. Bpd won't overshare with strangers. Nor will they hang up like that. They simply won't be giddy enough to be with you just to dump you, borderline emotions are deep, it's not a mood disorder, what you are describing are phases of mood on rotation, which is uncannily similar to manic bipolar that runs cyclical and expect a manic bipolar to hang up and ghost, my mother is bipolar manic so it doesn't take me much to detect the difference, most psychologists can't differentiate between bipolar and borderline because they only read literature and don't have ground experience, that's why I wasn't paying much attention to you, I'm not invalidating your experience at all, just saying that it's completely different from how a borderline would typically act, yes I have unstable emotions that change very frequently, yet it's episodic and not phasic, your description shows a phasic cyclical behavior in the woman, characteristic of manic bipolar as in my mother, which is fairly common and I understand that she was diagnosed as bpd, but often the most common misdiagnosis is that of a bipolar being diagnosed as borderline so I'm not surprised. There are similarities in borderline and bipolar only in outcome like impulsivity but their behavioral signs are vastly different, one is a mood disorder with typical behavior as you mentioned and the other namely borderline is an emotion personality disorder that is extremely hard to find and hard to deal with. A borderline won't start a relationship with you, forget breakup. They are very slow in sharing their stuff and don't share at all. My mother was into oversharing with strangers. Borderline don't dump them selves, they get dumped by the partner. They are usually not messy, they are messy only to strangers that they do not like, in personal relationships they are completely fine or even easier to deal with unless they are heavily triggered in which case they won't have a giddy phase. Detachment and being giddy is the last thing to expect from a borderline, their emotions are deep, they are not interested in drama and you would not even know that they have broken up, they are gone before you will find them. The experience you had is cyclical bipolar. I have lived with many bipolar people all my life including my mother and I had relationships with bipolar men, my current relationship is also a bipolar, I'm so used to bipolar that I can easily tell the difference between borderline and bipolar with no mistake because of my experiences. I don't give much credibility to psychologists because they often lack ground experience or field experience and misdiagnose bipolar as borderline. I have been diagnosed by a top psychologist (high rating) in my place who has incredible experience and who also diagnosed my PTSD plus I'm a 100% match for borderline on every trait. So my diagnosis was perfect. I'm the only borderline on this forum and there are many bipolar here. So that should be a clue. Edited May 3, 2022 by Preety_India INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @thibault another clue that she is not bpd but manic bipolar is that she never apologized and was hard to satisfy, typical of manic bipolar, whereas borderlines are chronically and excessively apologizing in relationships. I used to excessively apologize in my relationships Borderlines are apologizing all the time. INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @Preety_India Hey, what if I tell you I'm 1000% sure she is not bipolar (because I'm bipolar and she is nothing like that) and I'm ~80% sure she is BPD from reading and the fact that she was diagnosed. Regarding the mood swings I also have my own distinction between how it works for me and how I saw it working for her and you can tell me if this makes sense to you. My moods don't change relating to the environment. I will by happy for weeks, I will be average mood for weeks, and I will be depressed for weeks. No single event will change that and the mood will change back and forth gradually like a sine wave. A bit like this I guess : She never exhibited these kinds of mood changes. Her mood changes were instantaneous like an electric switch. Regarding our break up, she called me after several days of being distant because it was snowing. She was all giddy and happy about it (the snow) and all I could see was an attempt to get me back on her side after being distant with me for a few days. I didn't play into her game and that is when she instantly shifted into extreme anger mode and hung up on me. I have NEVER felt something like that being bipolar, when I am hypomanic/manic you could throw a brick in my face and I would think it is a positive sign from the universe, that is how detached from the environment my moods are. Regarding her breaking up. I agree she would never have broke up with me if I had not called her, she would simply have never made contact again and moved on. She did also apologize a lot by the way for things that weren't even her fault even. But then she had trouble taking accountability for things that I thought actually were. Basically what I'm trying to communicate is I have no doubt I am bipolar. I am diagnosed, I am on mood stabilizers and if I don't take them I will get manic. This proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a mood disorder. Now I've introspected on what it is to have a mood disorder and I can say with 99.99% certainty (there's always room for doubt) that she did not have one. Regarding my ex and specifically the break up, there are some highly unusual things that I noticed that led me to think the diagnosis she got of BPD was correct. She called me after days of little contact with me (I had come to interpret this as her "self-destructive" mode), I could hear the excitement in her voice and I felt that it was too much, way too much excitement for having been somewhat avoidant the past few days. I didn't really follow her in her excitement, she got angry and hung up. When I called her a few days later it sounded like she was expecting to never hear my voice again. We met up, she broke it off and told me that she had pretty much been crying non stop since hanging up with me. I asked her why she didn't call me back and she said that she had wanted to but been unable to, that she had told herself she would call me back when she had stopped crying but didn't stop for 3 days. I honestly don't know of any disorder that can cause a person to act giddy and then cry for 3 days over snow. I thought it was BPD but maybe not. If it is something else it seems to me that it will definitely be a personality disorder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) @thibault it could be anything but (you keep adding new details that adds to confusion) its not bpd. Maybe some emotional dysregulation disorder, definitely personality, but there are so many cluster B disorders if she is not bipolar then she something else that I'm not aware of, but her behavior is not typical of borderlines. I'll enlist the differences of borderline and bipolar shortly, I'm compiling it because these are closely related in display of symptoms and often mixed up very badly because they are tough to differentiate if you haven't experienced both. Edited May 3, 2022 by Preety_India INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 13 minutes ago, Preety_India said: @thibault it could be anything but (you keep adding new details that adds to confusion) its not bpd. Maybe some emotional dysregulation disorder, definitely personality, but there are so many cluster B disorders if she is not bipolar then she something else that I'm not aware of, but her behavior is not typical of borderlines. I'll enlist the differences of borderline and bipolar shortly, I'm compiling it because these are closely related in display of symptoms and often mixed up very badly because they are tough to differentiate if you haven't experienced both. Yeah sorry I think I'm not particularly good at bringing the most relevant details forward. I mostly adapt to how you are understanding me and try to pull in other information when I feel it doesn't fit with my experience. I'd definitely be interested in this list because for a while now I've taken it for granted that she was dealing with BPD and this is why the relationship failed so it would definitely force me to reconsider. Although I still can't shake the feeling that when I read your journal I saw so much overlap with her behavior. I'll have to think about some more I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @thibault OK here it is to give you some clarity. Difference between borderline and bipolar. Both similarities and differences. How I imagine borderline to look like How I imagine bipolar to look like Borderline Fear of Abandonment Unstable self image Unstable relationships Feelings of Emptiness Mood often shaped by interpersonal conflicts Sudden and short lived mood shifts Disproportionate anger Bipolar Sleep disturbance Distinct euphoric and depressive states Mood often stable between episodes Sustained mood shifts lasting days/weeks Bipolar Interpersonal insensitivity Grandiose self image Borderline Sensitivity to perceived or real Abandonment and rejection Badness self image (self deprecating) Bipolar Mood disorder Associated with genetics and brain chemistry Impulsivity only presents in manic or depressive episode Symptoms triggered by neuro chemistry Equilibrium between mood swings Swings last days or weeks Borderline Personality disorder Strongly associated with life events Impulsivity linked to personality traits Symptoms often triggered by relationship conflict Self harm behaviors Fear of Abandonment Constant mood swings. Swings can happen multiple times a day. Bipolar disorder mania Increased energy Extreme agitation Obsession Impulsiveness Unrealistic ideas Bipolar disorder depression Difficulty sleeping Hopelessness Excessive worry Extreme fatigue Isolation Borderline Attempts to avoid Abandonment Self harming thoughts/behavior Inappropriate outbursts Extreme anxiety/irritability Impulsive behavior Unstable relationships Constant mood changes Feelings of emptiness INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, Preety_India said: @thibault OK here it is to give you some clarity. Difference between borderline and bipolar. Both similarities and differences. How I imagine borderline to look like How I imagine bipolar to look like Borderline Fear of Abandonment Unstable self image Unstable relationships Feelings of Emptiness Mood often shaped by interpersonal conflicts Sudden and short lived mood shifts Disproportionate anger Bipolar Sleep disturbance Distinct euphoric and depressive states Mood often stable between episodes Sustained mood shifts lasting days/weeks Bipolar Interpersonal insensitivity Grandiose self image Borderline Sensitivity to perceived or real Abandonment and rejection Badness self image (self deprecating) Bipolar Mood disorder Associated with genetics and brain chemistry Impulsivity only presents in manic or depressive episode Symptoms triggered by neuro chemistry Equilibrium between mood swings Swings last days or weeks Borderline Personality disorder Strongly associated with life events Impulsivity linked to personality traits Symptoms often triggered by relationship conflict Self harm behaviors Fear of Abandonment Constant mood swings. Swings can happen multiple times a day. Bipolar disorder mania Increased energy Extreme agitation Obsession Impulsiveness Unrealistic ideas Bipolar disorder depression Difficulty sleeping Hopelessness Excessive worry Extreme fatigue Isolation Borderline Attempts to avoid Abandonment Self harming thoughts/behavior Inappropriate outbursts Extreme anxiety/irritability Impulsive behavior Unstable relationships Constant mood changes Feelings of emptiness Damn you did some work there lol. There is one particular thing that I read in there for BPD. The "unstable self-image". I definitely had this feeling with her and even farther than unstable I almost got the feeling that she was using her self-image as a "tool" if that makes sense. As in I felt like she could see herself in one way one moment to serve a given purpose, another way in another moment to serve another purpose, and sometimes somewhat random almost like from my perception there was a "backlash" and she was suffering from abusing this shifting self-image too much. With all of these behaviors that she had that when I read the BPD symptoms I think to myself "yep that's her, that's her, that's her...", I feel I don't have good examples of almost any behaviors because of how subtly I noticed these things. It's not like she was screaming "I FEEL EMPTY" but when I read that I can definitely map it in my experience somehow. Maybe I'm just projecting and completely missing the point but since I first started reading on BPD I haven't been able to shake the feeling that she was a textbook case. I guess I will never know... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @thibault not every behavior is related to a specific disorder. People are also their own people. For example some behaviors of your ex girlfriend could be unique to who she is, and not necessarily be in line with typical behaviors seen in people with those disorders. For example if you said that your ex girlfriend robbed a bank, would it mean that all bpd people rob banks? You see my point. Let's keep it as objective as possible and as close to the typical symptoms or behaviors described in that disorder. Any other behavior apart from typical symptoms could be just that person and shouldn't be generalized to all. Can we agree? INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 14 minutes ago, Preety_India said: @thibault not every behavior is related to a specific disorder. People are also their own people. For example some behaviors of your ex girlfriend could be unique to who she is, and not necessarily be in line with typical behaviors seen in people with those disorders. For example if you said that your ex girlfriend robbed a bank, would it mean that all bpd people rob banks? You see my point. Let's keep it as objective as possible and as close to the typical symptoms or behaviors described in that disorder. Any other behavior apart from typical symptoms could be just that person and shouldn't be generalized to all. Can we agree? Yeah I definitely agree with that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 So to clarify when I say some behavior she had was linked to her BPD, I mean in her specific case. As in for example (I don't believe this literally but entertain my line of thought for a second here) if she has BPD and one of the symptoms of BPD is "Unstable relationships" and she was close to breaking up with me several times then I can say "Usually in my relationships, my girlfriend doesn't want to break up with me several times over the course of a few months so it seems something is off here and one of the symptoms of BPD is unstable relationships which could explain her behavior. Therefore in her case that behavior could be caused or encouraged by her BPD". This says nothing about "BPD people want to break up every few months", it's only personal to her yet it can still be useful for me to draw the link so I don't blame her directly for the behavior but I can understand that it is part of a larger problem in her life. Do you understand what I mean ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @thibault bpd generally won't try to breakup several times. Something is telling me she is Hyper avoidant due to past trauma. This can easily mimic bpd and related personality disorders. Her wanting to break up is a sign of deep fear. Bpd has a huge fear of Abandonment. That's why I first suspected bipolar in her case because they can easily lose trust and get avoidant. Borderlines on the other hand will beg the person to stay no matter how abusive the relationship is because the fear of Abandonment is too strong. Your ex girlfriend shows very strong signs of trauma and the result hyper avoidant behavior triggered by fear of the past. She seems mentally and emotionally unstable. Like traumatized unstable. Not a particular disorder but just too much fear and paranoia which is indication of past emotional abuse and trauma. In any case she must have been through too much mental pain if she was constantly trying to break up. INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Preety_India said: @thibault bpd generally won't try to breakup several times. Something is telling me she is Hyper avoidant due to past trauma. This can easily mimic bpd and related personality disorders. Her wanting to break up is a sign of deep fear. Bpd has a huge fear of Abandonment. That's why I first suspected bipolar in her case because they can easily lose trust and get avoidant. Borderlines on the other hand will beg the person to stay no matter how abusive the relationship is because the fear of Abandonment is too strong. Your ex girlfriend shows very strong signs of trauma and the result hyper avoidant behavior triggered by fear of the past. She seems mentally and emotionally unstable. Like traumatized unstable. Not a particular disorder but just too much fear and paranoia which is indication of past emotional abuse and trauma. In any case she must have been through too much mental pain if she was constantly trying to break up. I actually interpreted this as a form of fear of abandonment. Like as if in the difficult moments of the relationship she was afraid that I would leave her so she wanted to beat me to the punch in a way. I saw it as her forcing me to take a position and show her that I cared about her and that I wasn't going to just leave her. And I believed she did this out of fear. In this way she would know more quickly if I planned to stay with her and she would also be able to tell herself that I didn't abandon her but that it was the other way around if I didn't want to continue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 26 minutes ago, thibault said: I actually interpreted this as a form of fear of abandonment. Like as if in the difficult moments of the relationship she was afraid that I would leave her so she wanted to beat me to the punch in a way. I saw it as her forcing me to take a position and show her that I cared about her and that I wasn't going to just leave her. And I believed she did this out of fear. In this way she would know more quickly if I planned to stay with her and she would also be able to tell herself that I didn't abandon her but that it was the other way around if I didn't want to continue. Yea but this is just your interpretation. The true fact is that she tried to leave which does not indicate fear of Abandonment. But nothing can be truly said of someone that I haven't personally experienced INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @thibault also read about bpd and narcissist relationships and look up.. Extremely common for bpd people to fall in love with npd. A dangerous dynamic where despite the bpd fear of Abandonment, they try to leave multiple times. One of my relationships with my ex was like that where he was an npd and I tried to leave him many times unsuccessfully, it's when the bpd feels like they are paying huge price by staying so they would rather prefer to leave than stay despite fears of Abandonment, kinda makes sense. INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 @Carl-Richard can I have this thread locked now? I think I received enough helpful responses and I'm grateful to everyone. INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues Cleared out ignore list today. .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 3, 2022 locked as requested by OP “If you find yourself acting to impress others, or avoiding action out of fear of what they might think, you have left the path.” ― Epictetus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
