No-thing

[Alphard]

According to the theory we are 'no-thing' or a 'field of infinite awareness' etc but if when I die there is no longer any sense of I then this tells me that what I am is just created by the brain and when the brain dies it no longer exists.  Can anyone explain why this may not be so?     

[Alphard]

20 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

The brain is a thing. The sense of I is a thing.

Does no-thing come from things, or do things come from no-thing?

But if Im dead what does it matter?  There is going to be no me to notice this no-thing.  

[Leo Gura]

@Alphard You are an illusion. You never existed in the first place.

Try to actually pin point this "thing" called "I" which is going to die.

Your current position is as silly as asking, "Mommy, what happens when Santa Claus dies? Who will deliver all the Xmas gifts?"

[Alphard]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Alphard You are an illusion. You never existed in the first place.

Try to actually pin point this "thing" called "I" which is going to die.

Your current position is as silly as asking, "Mommy, what happens when Santa Claus dies? Who will deliver all the Xmas gifts?"

Lets get things straight here.    The mind/body definitely exist but the self or the feeling of an entity thingness behind it all is nothing more than an illusion and I have actually experienced this more than once during mediation.  This is my understanding and this understanding is coming from this brain in this body.   When this mind/body die then yes the no-thingness may still exist out there, wherever out there happens to be,  but this sense of a personality and thinking mind that is here now trying to understand it will be no longer.  Therefore I don't really see the point of trying to believe that I am no-thing.  How does it help me? How does it make life any better or different?  I still have to go to work and still have the same set of shitty problems.

Im not sure what school of thought you are getting your ideas but my understanding is that the Buddha never said that you don't exist.  Not-self and not existing are not one and the same thing.  Apparently all he ever said was that there is nothing you can point to that is "the self" and I agree with this but on a daily basis I can't walk around saying to people "hi how are you today?  Never mind me Im just a field of infinite awareness"  It just seems pointless and they would be like "take a hike hippy".  It all makes for very interesting deep conversation but at the end of the day It just doesnt help me function any differently or better to believe I am no-thing.
 

Edited November 6, 2016 by Alphard

[Alphard]

9 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

That's right. And when you sleep, there is no you to notice the sleep.

So what notices the sleep?

It isn't noticed.  Its noticed in past tense when you wake up.  When you once again become conscious.   The brain switches back on and you realise you're awake.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Alphard

[Alphard]

23 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Then why do people generally like to go to sleep, and don't like to be woken up? 

Because its a relief from the woes of daily life. Because the body gets tired and needs to recuperate. It feels good to slip into unconsciousness.

23 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

If it were "out there" it would not help you at all. But what if you're wrong and it's not "out there", how might that help you? Not by trying to believe it, but by actually discovering it, seeing it and living it. Another thing to contemplate...

Im using the term "out there" because the english language is limited and I can find no other way to describe what Im trying to articulate.  As I said before I have "discovered it" during meditation and it was mind blowing but in the end it was just another experience which became a memory and the body/mind still exists and still has to go about its mundane daily duties and chores. 

 

Edited November 6, 2016 by Alphard

[Alphard]

38 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Absolutely. Is there any doubt about that? If not, how can you be so sure that it feels good? I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying something in you is absolutely sure that it feels good. And it can't feel good only in retrospect. You don't go to sleep for the feeling of waking up rested, you go to sleep for the rest.

I go to sleep for both.  It only feels good during the falling and the rested feeling after.  While Im actually asleep there is no feeling except in dreams perhaps but even then the feeling is when I awaken and remember what i dreamt of.

38 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Now consider the possibility that the woes of daily life weigh on you only because of the unshakable impression that it's YOU who has to carry all those burdens. The rest you get at night is not just for the body, it's also for the mind, and the biggest drag on the mind by far is YOU. And by the way, that's also the biggest drag on the body.

What if the reason sleep feels good isn't because you're unconscious, but because there's no YOU involved? And what if life can be lived that way too? More to contemplate...

What if what if what if.   I have to eat and various other things to keep living. Holding a belief that there is no me doesn't change that.   I already told you that I understand "the self" is an illusion however the body and brain are not.   They are here in the world. They exist.   If someone was to chop off your arm are you going to stand there and say "its ok because I don't exist"?   Its all philosophical waffle that you can think and talk about till the cows come home but in the end your sense of self is produced by neuro brain chemicals and when the brain is gone so has the sense of self, individuality and personality that has the conversation in the first place.  Sure the no-thing goes on but NTOgen won't know about it.  It all seems like just more ways for the ego to try and convince itself that it isn't going to die. For people who are scared of death to feel better about not existing anymore because its such a terrifying concept that our tiny brains cannot fathom.
Also what you are saying may be interesting and nice for wealthy middle class people to sit around chatting about but what about a poverty stricken child prostitute living in squalor? Are they also causing their own burden because they believe they exist?  I dont think so.    If these kinds of beliefs don't end suffering then whats the point.

38 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

If you were to go blind right now, would you know it? What if you were to go blind and deaf? Isn't the absence of sensory experience also noticed? What if all your senses were gone, only thoughts remain. Would you notice the absence? Would you need thoughts to notice the absence? What if all thoughts disappeared as well? Would you suddenly stop noticing?

Because that's essentially what you're saying. You're saying that the absence of all experience equals unconsciousness. Which would imply that consciousness is locked into the experience itself, and of course if that's true then you're right, it can't notice its own absence. But is it really true? Even more to contemplate...

 Once the brain is gone there is no me , no you, no noticing anything.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Alphard

[Alphard]

39 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Hey dude, you asked. I assumed you were willing to explore the question because I assumed you wanted to find some answers. But maybe you had already made up your mind, eh?

 

Beliefs don't end suffering, they cause it. That's why I was trying to explore them with you. Now you might reread your posts and notice how much you cherish yours. It's on you, buddy, not me.

Its funny how Americans start referring to people as 'dude' when they feel affronted.  Its ok you can calm down.  My opinion differs to yours.
I am willing to explore the questions thats why I asked it in the first place but I haven't heard any convincing arguments.  All I hear are the same vague new agey generic concepts repeated ad nauseam. And thats all they are - concepts.

I could say the same thing about you having made up your mind.  Part of this whole vernacular is that one needs to keep ones mind open, keep ones cup empty and cultivate a beginners 'not knowing mind' however the people who choose to believe and talk about it seem to be very closed off and adamant about their views because they have had some experience and decided that therefore it must be the ultimate truth for everyone. Its a very rigid way of seeing things and similar to christianity.   The christians have certain experiences that they interpret as the holy spirit entering them. They are convinced that what they believe is real and everyone else is delusional.   How is this No-thing concept/belief any different? 

People from your ilk claim that its egoic or delusional to believe anything else yet it seems to me that its their own egos that refuse to accept death and so they convince themselves that some part of them will live on.  They look down on those who don't agree as though they are somehow less conscious, less enlightened, or inferior but its done in this kind of passive aggressive way.  "oh silly you, how absurd that you cannot see that you don't exist. You will awaken like us one day" etc   Spiritual egotism appears to be rampant.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Alphard

[Khin]

@Alphard Buddha had said "Etta or the ego or No You" man many times and his teaching was all about that. 

[Alphard]

26 minutes ago, Khin said:

@Alphard Buddha had said "Etta or the ego or No You" man many times and his teaching was all about that. 

You knew him personally did you?   My understanding of what this supposed person supposedly said is that there is nothing you can point to that you can call self. Everything you point to is not self and I do not disagree with this.  

[Alphard]

1 hour ago, NTOgen said:

Dude  I'm not american, I've never been there, and english isn't my native language. Name of the enlightenment game: Check your assumptions.

 

It's not my job to convince you. If you want to find answers, you take what you can get and you figure it out. It doesn't work any other way.

 

Yes I have made up my mind, and it's because I've done my homework and I'm living the process. I don't give a shit about new age concepts or any other concepts, except insofar as they have practical value in terms of waking up.

 

I agree. Not sure that I came off that way, but if I did, it wasn't my intention. That's one reason why I made a point of offering possibilities to contemplate for yourself, instead of "telling you how it is".

 

That's more or less what most people tend to do with "spiritual teachings". But I don't give a shit about spiritual teachings either.

 

Then let's not go that route.

 

How exactly does it help me to live a better life?   If I suffer for some reason such as I lost my job?   I can then tell myself that its ok because I don't really exist?    If its just an interesting theory I don't see the point.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by Alphard

[Tancrede Pouyat]

30mg of 5-MeO up your nose and 15 minutes later, you'll understand how the body-mind can die and no-thing can still exist.

You people seem to forget that time and space are not real, death isn't either, sleep isn't either, there are no things in reality. 

[Bizarre]

23 hours ago, Alphard said:

According to the theory   

Its not a theory, it's Truth, you mistake it for a theory because you believe your current perspective is the truth, and this is backed up by billions of other people and your every day experience.  The fact is, it's them who's living in a theory because they have not examined their beliefs properly, but still complain that life is 'hard' and they need this that or the other to complete themselves. So before you fob it off as a theory think about whether your current conditioned belief system actually works.  

23 hours ago, Alphard said:

when I die there is no longer any sense of I

How do you know that this is just another opinion and belief?  How do you know you die?  There is a whole subculture of people telling you that you don't die, and that if you again investigate your experience properly you will discover that you don't in fact die. 

 

23 hours ago, Alphard said:

what I am is just created by the brain and when the brain dies it no longer exists.  

How can a brain cause consciousness?  Nothing in the material universe is conscious, its all mechanics.  Investigate your experience, your body, brain, thoughts and feelings are all known to you, they are not conscious.  If they were conscious then they would know you, would they not?  But this is not what your experience tells you.  Every single persons experience is that of a conscious observer who cannot itself be observed, but is obviously able to observe matter.

17 hours ago, Alphard said:

How exactly does it help me to live a better life?   If I suffer for some reason such as I lost my job?   I can then tell myself that its ok because I don't really exist?    If its just an interesting theory I don't see the point.  

When you don't believe you are a person with a fear of death and all the other associated neuroses, how do you think life will be for a person like that?  Use your imagination.  I agree, people telling you that you don't exist is silly in and of itself, but if you can use it as a prompt to investigate your experience and interpret it correctly you will see that what you currently think you are does in fact not really exist.  I imagine this will be a huge relief to the consciousness who currently is experiencing this identity crisis.

[Khin]

@Alphard Sorry if I miss understood what you said. I'll read it again.