Any deeper thoughts on Adolf?

[Vrubel]

On 16/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, Persipnei said:

Thing is, it happened 80 years ago, no direct witnesses remain. 

It happened only 80 years ago not in ancient times, we literally have millions of witness testimonies from nearly all perspectives.

On 16/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, Persipnei said:

We all know that the victor writes history, so the main reason Hitler is the Big Bad Evil Guy is because the historians made him like this. If Germany had won, the Churchills and Roosevelts would have been the bad guys in our history books.

History is not necessarily written by the victors, that's something that edgy teenagers say to sound intelligent. History is written by whoever writes it. For example the narrative of the civil war in America war was for a long time dominated by the south as they falsely stated that the war was about states rights and taxes, not about slavery. And how do you explain the bad press the Babylonians got in the bible despite conquering the Hebrews. Over time as peoples became less attached to their history being righteous and sacred, they become more open to a less biased, more honest and a more multi-perspectival interpretation of history.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Vrubel

[Ima Freeman]

Hitler saw himself as the spiritual father of Germany, who had to protect and bring up his children to survive in a world in which only the strongest survive

ahtoyouth.mp4

[Ima Freeman]

Don't know how to embed videos 

[Persipnei]

12 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It happened only 80 years ago not in ancient times, we literally have millions of witness testimonies from nearly all perspectives.

History is not necessarily written by the victors, that's something that edgy teenagers say to sound intelligent. History is written by whoever writes it. For example the narrative of the civil war in America war was for a long time dominated by the south as they falsely stated that the war was about states rights and taxes, not about slavery. And how do you explain the bad press the Babylonians got in the bible despite conquering the Hebrews. Over time as peoples became less attached to their history being righteous and sacred, they become more open to a less biased, more honest and a more multi-perspectival interpretation of history.

Yes, you are right, history is written by whoever writes it. What we learn in school (I'm talking Western education, here) is the version of the Euromerican culture, in many ways the winner of modern history.

The millions of witness testimonies you talk about also contradict each other. You might at most find a shared base, that you could call 'facts', but even that base is subjective, because that's how people are: biased.

I guess I just want to say: history is just another psychosis we give to each other, trying to explain the unclear mess we are living in 

[No Self]

7 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

I guess I just want to say: history is just another psychosis we give to each other, trying to explain the unclear mess we are living in 

There's truth to that, but it seems to have gotten better. If the narrative were, "We kicked their ass and it was awesome!" then that's a likely sign of a whitewash.

My main problem with history is a lack of emphasis of cultures that were exterminated by the Christian empires. We could learn a thing or two from 'nature worshipping' native American, Aboriginal Australian, etc. societies given the problems we face today.

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Persipnei said:

The millions of witness testimonies you talk about also contradict each other. You might at most find a shared base, that you could call 'facts', but even that base is subjective, because that's how people are: biased.

Of course! history is entirely built on perspective(s) and therefore highly relative. It is basically a story we make up to make sense-of and to contextualize the world. (For me a very fascinating story though, I love getting lost in it)
Having said that it is still problematic from a societal point of view when people deny or are blind to other narratives. Denying or relativizing the holocaust, saying the civil war was not about slavery or completely refusing to acknowledge an "opposing" perpective is not exactly a sign of high intelligence and moral integrity. 

[PurpleTree]

Ever heard the Adolf/Hanussen "Mandrake" story?

Erik Jan Hanussen was apparently a famous Jewish Astrologer/Clairvoyant at that time and predicted some things for Adolf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Jan_Hanussen

Here's a National Geographic video about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6H1_wiQsg

 

 

Do you think this is "true" or stuff like that was put out to make Adolf seem more mystical and invincible at the time.

Seems like the occult etc. was really en vogue at that time anyways.

 

or the "Spear of Destiny"

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by PurpleTree

[Persipnei]

48 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Denying or relativizing the holocaust, saying the civil war was not about slavery or completely refusing to acknowledge an "opposing" perpective is not exactly a sign of high intelligence and moral integrity. 

I'd argue following the official narrative is as much refusing to acknowledge the other perspective than is denying or relativating the holocaust. But getting to that understanding is, my in eyes, part of awakening: seeing that every thing is true and not true at the same time, that everything is and nothing is at the same time...

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Persipnei said:

Yes, you are right, history is written by whoever writes it. What we learn in school (I'm talking Western education, here) is the version of the Euromerican culture, in many ways the winner of modern history.

What do you mean by "modern history" and what do you mean by "Euromerican" ?

[Persipnei]

18 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

What do you mean by "modern history" and what do you mean by "Euromerican" ?

The official narrative about the last few centuries as thought in the "West" is written by the imperialistic mindset.

I am not an American but have quite some I call friends. They tell me they get told thousands of times how great their country is, what good they did in the world, but he could count the times native americans, the african slave trade or illegal wars in the middle east were mentioned, on one hand.

Off course, last year, the slave trade and it's following topic of racism were "hot" for a while, but I'm quite sure it was just to keep us busy. It went faster than it came and except for some empty slogans did nothing to fight racism.

[Vrubel]

59 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

I'd argue following the official narrative is as much refusing to acknowledge the other perspective than is denying or relativating the holocaust. But getting to that understanding is, my in eyes, part of awakening: seeing that every thing is true and not true at the same time, that everything is and nothing is at the same time...

Well, it depends on what the official narrative is. Columbus used to be a brave explorer that connected to words (stage blue). Now he is a genocidal maniac (stage green). Those are two examples of so-called official narratives. Personally, I think both of these are very simplistic, partial and laced with judgement/bias. but at the end, you can't escape the relativity of perspective, that's where awakening comes in. 
But quite frankly considering that the masses of people are very selfish and are not interested in (honestly studying) history, it is helpful to have at least an official narrative that is considerate of multiple perspectives and does not tolerate things like Holocaust denial. 

Hell... even on this forum I have seen people relativizing the Holocaust because they think they are being intelligent and edgy for going against the grain. This is where upholding an "official" narrative can be handy. Official narratives are for the masses who are not interested in history and can't think for themselves.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Vrubel

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Persipnei said:

The official narrative about the last few centuries as thought in the "West" is written by the imperialistic mindset.

I am not an American but have quite some I call friends. They tell me they get told thousands of times how great their country is, what good they did in the world, but he could count the times native americans, the african slave trade or illegal wars in the middle east were mentioned, on one hand.

Off course, last year, the slave trade and it's following topic of racism were "hot" for a while, but I'm quite sure it was just to keep us busy. It went faster than it came and except for some empty slogans did nothing to fight racism.

I asked that because modern history is said to have started around the 17th century.

Germany (the biggest country population wise in western Europe) lost two World Wars in the 20th century, mostly to other European countries and US and Russia.

The Austro Hungarian empire collapsed. etc. Spain lost a war and colonies to the US by the end of the 19th century.

imo the word Euromerican suggests as if it was a cohesive block, when they actually had a lot of infighting and mutual destruction.

So i just didn't understand what you meant by it. If you mean NATO countries since WW2 or whatever.

[Persipnei]

@PurpleTree The NATO narrative is indeed what I mean. That narrative has it's origin in English imperialism of the 1700's, that turned into American de facto world leadership in the 20th century. A lot of countries joined later (like germany and austria who had a different narrative until the '50s).

[No Self]

6 hours ago, Vrubel said:

But quite frankly considering that the masses of people are very selfish and are not interested in (honestly studying) history, it is helpful to have at least an official narrative that is considerate of multiple perspectives and does not tolerate things like Holocaust denial. 

The problem is that every single historical story becomes more complex the more one looks into it. Lest we expect every person to become a scholar in every historical event, gross oversimplification is inevitable.

This will of course lead to certain individuals being glorified as great, others defamed as terrible and everyone in between forgotten. You may find that you do this even with stories of people from your own past. A poor quality education system will actively perpetuate this by discouraging any sort of studies that question the default narrative; sadly, the US is such a system, which explains the insane psychology behind the Trump phenomenon.

Having said that, edgy internet users who want to get into Holocaust denial just to be anti-Normie are the worst morons of all. They are only displaying their own lack of critical thinking skills regarding conspiracy theories, or their miserable ego's desire to feel special.

Being able to empathise with a wide range of people and see them all as parts of ourselves - whether nice or not - is the highest purpose of history or geography.

I got a lot out of John Green's history and can recommend it to anyone interested.