Letting Go Of A Particular Attachment To Progress Further Toward Enlightenment

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Toby said:

The thing is... physical appearance will change. Physical abilities and strength will change. Character traits and personality will change. Mental abilities will change. And outside circumstances as well. It's maybe a bit sad but thats how it is.

Oh, I forget to tell you something: the two most famous female western Gurus both had plastic surgery afaik. And they are still amazing teachers IMO.

That's true. Everything is always in a state of constant change. Change is the only guarantee. That's why this is frustrating for me. I know all of these things rationally, and I have even explored myself deeply and introspected on this issue many times. But the emotional attachment still remains and causes me much unnecessary distress. I think I just have to starve the thoughts of my attention through mindfulness while learning how to accept myself unconditionally separate from others' opinions of me. But I'm not a big fan of plastic surgery... especially on the face. It often looks really weird. Not to shame anyone for their choices, but it would be something that I'd want to do. 

[Guest]

It seems to me that you ultimate problem is caring too much about what people think. Maybe females suffer more in our current societies, due to the idealistic "image" that has been placed on them, maybe they don't. It is in all respects completely irrelevant, because the one who accepts the image is you.

Yes, impermanence is a thing and all that, but that is not the real problem. The problem is that you want to be this ideal person. But even if you were to become this ideal person that you are holding up in your head, would that person ever look at themselves and say "I am intelligent, funny and sexy"? Of course not. Because that means that you would be holding yourself up above others. That person's worth would be derived from a direct comparison with others. And if they did think this, they would continually expect themselves to act in an intelligent, funny and sexy way. They would essentially be chaining themselves, there would be no freedom.

 

The way I see it: 

It's like saying Monet's paintings are better than every other artist's, and thus all paintings should be painted in the exact style that Monet showed us. How ridiculous! Each painter has their own style, but it is not the style which defines the painter! (if they are chained to expectations of how they think their art or art in general should be, then yes, their style does define them) The style is just what has been done by the painter, when one makes an external comparison. It doesn't define what he/she will paint next. In fact, if there is that expectation/defining of the painter's own style, then he/she will want to replicate previous successes all the time, and as a result, they will fail.

Each painting, whether by an amateur or Monet is a unique formation in the world. Also, all painters are unique instances of painters, although most don't realize it. Most growing egos are like the adult amateur painter. They look at a professional painting and think "I want to paint like that".  This is like the child saying "I want to be intelligent". It's fine to want to be intelligent, and aim to improve your being to bring light to the world, but at a certain point, the want to improve your being becomes a direct comparison between you and others.  ”I want to be intelligent" becomes "How do I know that I am intelligent?", and so you look to others to see a measure of progress. The change being that the want to be a "good person" is initially thought out of love, in my opinion, just like how an artist starts doing art: it is out of love for art. But then the art simply stops being done for art's sake, it is done for sake of comparison to the external (whether that comes in the form of respect or money or whatever). Similarly, a true artist would not think "I am a good artist". This is where artists all fall down, and consequently it's where your ego is falling down. The art is no longer done for the love of art, but for other external reasons. Art can be done for other people or yourself, but really, it is about none of those things. It's really just about love. That doesn't mean it doesn't include other people and yourself in the concept of love though, but love is larger than that. 

And you are suffering at the moment because you are comparing yourself to others. 

There may also be another element to this in which the expectations of society and others around you seem so natural that you cannot seem to draw yourself out of it. But as explained above, this is not you. There is: 1) understanding of yourself as a unique instance, a unique painter in the world and 2) understanding that other people's expectations/comparisons are based on misunderstandings of life....both of which should hopefully be understood if you read above.

 

Each person is a unique instance of being. Not only that, but it is literally impossible to be perfect in this relative world, just like it is impossible to create a perfect piece of art.

Where is your freedom of expression? 

Is your freedom of expression being confined by the critics and by who you think you are?

Edited March 17, 2016 by TwoDays

[Hillary Kapan]

Having been seriously depressed for a bunch of years, I can relate to that side of things.  I remember the day I decided to not take a painful path to enlightnement (or whatever it is), and decided instead to work everyday to unearth ick bits, rethink them into harmony, and let them go.

  Here's what worked for me to get to key thoughts that released attachments rather quickly.  I used some ancient, mostly not-used advice.  I began to look at the meanings of words that troubled me. For me, those included, especially, 'worth', 'me', and 'Baltimore', and also, especially, 'sexuality', 'important', and 'necessary'.  I would write down the words and their societal meanings and write out flaws in those meanings.  I looked from as many angles as possible, until the word--at least on that day--had much less pain associated with it for me.  I removed or syphoned-out the pain within meanings of words like 'should'.  Or whatever got in the way of freedom-in-joy, serenity, joy, energy, excitement, whatever.  I also gave myself permission to do it, well, cheerfully!  Even and especially when, I sure didn't feel cheerful.  If it helped, I completely skipped thinking about myself and thought about the words that harmed me (interfered with emotions I loved, blocked motivation, whatever).  Hope that helps.

To be more clear, say I decided that 'worth' hurt me, and it did, hugely.  I'd look at worth--even in a dictionary--to see its assumptions, and see the logic of the idea of worth, maybe consider its history, such as when ancient or more recent kings belittled others as a way to puff themselves up and to control populations.  I did a whole load of writing about the screwy bits in meanings of words.  I'd ask questions.  Is 'worth' worth it?  No, the meaning of worth was definitely not worth it.  Once I 'got' this, I was off to the races improving (for myself on my terms) the meaning of worth.

By looking at the keywords of my pain in this, that, and the other way, I saw pain-words (like 'young')  increasingly as impractical, and of course, as mind-bits and not-me.  Word-viruses.  I don't need their infections.

I've had a good deal of trouble with 'young' (Not that I'm past it now!!!!!)  But here's what I do: I disprove the meaning in no uncertain terms.  Repeatedly and reminding myself that 'young' is not 'me', so I can have fun disproving the very concept.  Young, how?  Do I believe in potential reincarnation?  Ok, then maybe young is relative, and maybe I'm fairly old (or not) I don't know.  Suddenly, I don't know if I've ever been young in this life.  Do I think of myself as young, but almost not young?  What about compared to the age of a rock--or, well what about the mountains?  Then I might try to think through some way of imagining the age of something ten thousand years old, then older, and so forth, realizing that the youngest mountains are really old compared to me. If that line of disproof didn't work, I'd use another.  For instance, this: When I was a kid I feared older kids sometimes.  Or adults.  Am I now living in some remnant of that fear?  Fear of older people traslated into fear of oldness?  I'd do this sort of playful analysis with seriousness of intent, with feeling, connected to feeling, and not all-in-my-head.  I prioritized love, including love of how-I-want-to-feel.

 On a relevant note, I am stunned by your insight. Thanks again so much.

[Toby]

I'm so tempted to write about the Enneagram. I don't know why. Maybe if it doesn't apply to you, it may to be of help to someone else:

So there are nine types, but there are also 3 subtypes that occur in every type but of whom you have one main-subtype:

• selfpreservation: your unconscious idea for happiness is being healthy, having a good house/income. Very much concerned with food and health and security. More focused on spending time alone.
• sexual: like 1on1 relationships, sexual and non-sexual. Focuses "who is attractive?" when with people. Is very much concerned to be attractive to themselve and others. May be obsessed with sex, romantic relationships (in reality or fantasy) and expressing/feeling their sexual energy as a way of connecting with life/people/universe (which is more a compensation and not real connection but is mistaken as connection)
• social: like, prefer more group siuations. If the main-type is more withdrawn this may differ but interactions with people are mainly concerned around "what is my position/status in the group?" or what are other peoples positions and roles and relations in groups. Is concerned with status, being of value and important to others - it may be through their role. Maybe they are very caring, maybe the know a lot of things. Or maybe the embody or try to embody an ideal of being successful, having money, friends, health and attractiveness as a way for gaining or keeping a status/role/position in the group or society. Also as a way of connecting with life - which is also a compensation.

That are the three subtypes. Everyone has each of them but one is extremely pronounced and one "subtype". That subtype then plays out in relation what main-enneagram-type you have. I did't write this so that people can know their subtype but mainly to see that it isn't personal if for example you or anyone else wants to be attractive/sexual for then feeling connected with life (through sexual or social drive) or attracting/keeping a mate for security reasons (selfpreservation). Maybe this helps, maybe not.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Toby

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

What I mean by detachment is to understand that I am not the self-concept that my ego spins. All fear, including fear of death, come from the illusion of ego.  So, I have this insecurity, but there is no "I" to actually have it. I suspect this insecurity exists as a mechanism to keep the ego hidden from being exposed. It's one of the ego stories that keeps it sustained. I would imagine that transcending the ego (permanently) is the only really effective way to get over all of these resistances to what is natural.

@Emerald Wilkins You are analysing this too much.  This sort of thing can't be approached intellectually, Just grieve your losses and confusion it will sort itself out.  It's not all of you, a little bit of micro-disidentification/observing = good.  Going into the head with all this theory = bad 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Emerald]

17 hours ago, TwoDays said:

It seems to me that you ultimate problem is caring too much about what people think. Maybe females suffer more in our current societies, due to the idealistic "image" that has been placed on them, maybe they don't. It is in all respects completely irrelevant, because the one who accepts the image is you.

Yes, impermanence is a thing and all that, but that is not the real problem. The problem is that you want to be this ideal person. But even if you were to become this ideal person that you are holding up in your head, would that person ever look at themselves and say "I am intelligent, funny and sexy"? Of course not. Because that means that you would be holding yourself up above others. That person's worth would be derived from a direct comparison with others. And if they did think this, they would continually expect themselves to act in an intelligent, funny and sexy way. They would essentially be chaining themselves, there would be no freedom.

 

The way I see it: 

It's like saying Monet's paintings are better than every other artist's, and thus all paintings should be painted in the exact style that Monet showed us. How ridiculous! Each painter has their own style, but it is not the style which defines the painter! (if they are chained to expectations of how they think their art or art in general should be, then yes, their style does define them) The style is just what has been done by the painter, when one makes an external comparison. It doesn't define what he/she will paint next. In fact, if there is that expectation/defining of the painter's own style, then he/she will want to replicate previous successes all the time, and as a result, they will fail.

Each painting, whether by an amateur or Monet is a unique formation in the world. Also, all painters are unique instances of painters, although most don't realize it. Most growing egos are like the adult amateur painter. They look at a professional painting and think "I want to paint like that".  This is like the child saying "I want to be intelligent". It's fine to want to be intelligent, and aim to improve your being to bring light to the world, but at a certain point, the want to improve your being becomes a direct comparison between you and others.  ”I want to be intelligent" becomes "How do I know that I am intelligent?", and so you look to others to see a measure of progress. The change being that the want to be a "good person" is initially thought out of love, in my opinion, just like how an artist starts doing art: it is out of love for art. But then the art simply stops being done for art's sake, it is done for sake of comparison to the external (whether that comes in the form of respect or money or whatever). Similarly, a true artist would not think "I am a good artist". This is where artists all fall down, and consequently it's where your ego is falling down. The art is no longer done for the love of art, but for other external reasons. Art can be done for other people or yourself, but really, it is about none of those things. It's really just about love. That doesn't mean it doesn't include other people and yourself in the concept of love though, but love is larger than that. 

And you are suffering at the moment because you are comparing yourself to others. 

There may also be another element to this in which the expectations of society and others around you seem so natural that you cannot seem to draw yourself out of it. But as explained above, this is not you. There is: 1) understanding of yourself as a unique instance, a unique painter in the world and 2) understanding that other people's expectations/comparisons are based on misunderstandings of life....both of which should hopefully be understood if you read above.

 

Each person is a unique instance of being. Not only that, but it is literally impossible to be perfect in this relative world, just like it is impossible to create a perfect piece of art.

Where is your freedom of expression? 

Is your freedom of expression being confined by the critics and by who you think you are?

Spot on. I have a lot of comparison-mindedness. I think, for whatever reason, I've always felt a background sense of self-loathing. When I was a teen, I learned to stave off this feeling of worthlessness by engaging in various self-improvement tactics and achievement ventures. I developed myself as a thinker, hard worker,  and as an artist (I'm a painter... ironically enough). I was really trying to self-actualize.

Every time I would achieve something or out-do someone, I'd feel a short relief from my self-loathing. This put me ahead in life in many ways, but it was always spiked with some degree of negativity. Then, when I had my 'ego-transcendence' experiences, it was clear to me that I was struggling and striving for a sense of significance and battling a deep inferiority complex, by seeking to be "superior" to others according to the standards I had set. It painted me into a box, and I was unable to really be free. 

So, afterward, I sought to relinquish my achieving, self-actualizing nature. This was when my issues with vanity, came to a head. I had always had some issues, that I mostly kept under wraps and unconscious. So, I think that, when I stopped myself from achieving, I unconsciously sought another way to "achieve" and distract myself from the feelings of insignificance.  So, instead of trying to achieve significance through personal contribution, I started to seek it by being attractive... which is far more problematic.  

But you are very right that this is the thing that I need to address. 

[Emerald]

13 hours ago, Hillary Kapan said:

Having been seriously depressed for a bunch of years, I can relate to that side of things.  I remember the day I decided to not take a painful path to enlightnement (or whatever it is), and decided instead to work everyday to unearth ick bits, rethink them into harmony, and let them go.

  Here's what worked for me to get to key thoughts that released attachments rather quickly.  I used some ancient, mostly not-used advice.  I began to look at the meanings of words that troubled me. For me, those included, especially, 'worth', 'me', and 'Baltimore', and also, especially, 'sexuality', 'important', and 'necessary'.  I would write down the words and their societal meanings and write out flaws in those meanings.  I looked from as many angles as possible, until the word--at least on that day--had much less pain associated with it for me.  I removed or syphoned-out the pain within meanings of words like 'should'.  Or whatever got in the way of freedom-in-joy, serenity, joy, energy, excitement, whatever.  I also gave myself permission to do it, well, cheerfully!  Even and especially when, I sure didn't feel cheerful.  If it helped, I completely skipped thinking about myself and thought about the words that harmed me (interfered with emotions I loved, blocked motivation, whatever).  Hope that helps.

To be more clear, say I decided that 'worth' hurt me, and it did, hugely.  I'd look at worth--even in a dictionary--to see its assumptions, and see the logic of the idea of worth, maybe consider its history, such as when ancient or more recent kings belittled others as a way to puff themselves up and to control populations.  I did a whole load of writing about the screwy bits in meanings of words.  I'd ask questions.  Is 'worth' worth it?  No, the meaning of worth was definitely not worth it.  Once I 'got' this, I was off to the races improving (for myself on my terms) the meaning of worth.

By looking at the keywords of my pain in this, that, and the other way, I saw pain-words (like 'young')  increasingly as impractical, and of course, as mind-bits and not-me.  Word-viruses.  I don't need their infections.

I've had a good deal of trouble with 'young' (Not that I'm past it now!!!!!)  But here's what I do: I disprove the meaning in no uncertain terms.  Repeatedly and reminding myself that 'young' is not 'me', so I can have fun disproving the very concept.  Young, how?  Do I believe in potential reincarnation?  Ok, then maybe young is relative, and maybe I'm fairly old (or not) I don't know.  Suddenly, I don't know if I've ever been young in this life.  Do I think of myself as young, but almost not young?  What about compared to the age of a rock--or, well what about the mountains?  Then I might try to think through some way of imagining the age of something ten thousand years old, then older, and so forth, realizing that the youngest mountains are really old compared to me. If that line of disproof didn't work, I'd use another.  For instance, this: When I was a kid I feared older kids sometimes.  Or adults.  Am I now living in some remnant of that fear?  Fear of older people traslated into fear of oldness?  I'd do this sort of playful analysis with seriousness of intent, with feeling, connected to feeling, and not all-in-my-head.  I prioritized love, including love of how-I-want-to-feel.

 On a relevant note, I am stunned by your insight. Thanks again so much.

Thank you. This reminds me a bit of spiritual autolysis. I think I will try this in relation to ideas of worth and significance.

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Toby said:

I'm so tempted to write about the Enneagram. I don't know why. Maybe if it doesn't apply to you, it may to be of help to someone else:

So there are nine types, but there are also 3 subtypes that occur in every type but of whom you have one main-subtype:

• selfpreservation: your unconscious idea for happiness is being healthy, having a good house/income. Very much concerned with food and health and security. More focused on spending time alone.
• sexual: like 1on1 relationships, sexual and non-sexual. Focuses "who is attractive?" when with people. Is very much concerned to be attractive to themselve and others. May be obsessed with sex, romantic relationships (in reality or fantasy) and expressing/feeling their sexual energy as a way of connecting with life/people/universe (which is more a compensation and not real connection but is mistaken as connection)
• social: like, prefer more group siuations. If the main-type is more withdrawn this may differ but interactions with people are mainly concerned around "what is my position/status in the group?" or what are other peoples positions and roles and relations in groups. Is concerned with status, being of value and important to others - it may be through their role. Maybe they are very caring, maybe the know a lot of things. Or maybe the embody or try to embody an ideal of being successful, having money, friends, health and attractiveness as a way for gaining or keeping a status/role/position in the group or society. Also as a way of connecting with life - which is also a compensation.

That are the three subtypes. Everyone has each of them but one is extremely pronounced and one "subtype". That subtype then plays out in relation what main-enneagram-type you have. I did't write this so that people can know their subtype but mainly to see that it isn't personal if for example you or anyone else wants to be attractive/sexual for then feeling connected with life (through sexual or social drive) or attracting/keeping a mate for security reasons (selfpreservation). Maybe this helps, maybe not.

I have taken this one before. It was the one where I got 68 sexual 52 self-preservation 54 social. I'm going from memory but I took it a few weeks ago. I think this type of test is good for someone seeking to understand themselves rationally. It can help with making life decisions. But I've done a ton of rationalizing and I have also taken a ton of personal assessments (MBTI, Enneagram, Strengthsfinder, etc.). I feel like I know a lot about my feelings and where they come from. But I feel like, at this point, self-knowledge and understanding in this way may actually be playing into my attachment. It becomes more content added to the thought stories that I want to detach myself from. But thank you.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Nomad said:

@Emerald Wilkins You are analysing this too much.  This sort of thing can't be approached intellectually, Just grieve your losses and confusion it will sort itself out.  It's not all of you, a little bit of micro-disidentification/observing = good.  Going into the head with all this theory = bad 

 

I agree. I've done far too much rationalization. It adds more to the thought stories that I'm seeking to starve.