Are you a believer? Or; How much of a believer are you?

[UnbornTao]

14 hours ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

I guess it's a "separate the wheat from the chaff" situation, like with all teachers.

In general, I think we should be skeptical of gurus. The whole guru model is very corrupt and epistemically irresponsible. It's almost impossible to do the guru thing correctly.

What would you consider the line between belief and direct consciousness? I agree beliefs are a problem, but it seems like you're operating based on a clear distinction between the two, which I'm not sure I agree with.

It's the line between an opinion and a personal encounter. Completely different worlds. I believe in the moon versus I've been on the moon - something like that.

And yet it is easy for us to believe that things are true which we haven't gone through, as our minds can fabricate and conceive states and experiences consistent with the way we regard X and Y. Add to this the way we interpret what 'going through something' means. But in theory they're night and day.

This belief business is more generally directed at us, the listeners.

[Eskilon]

@UnbornTao when`s Absolute believer awakening?

I'm gonna hammer some belief in ya, your biggest nightmare

[UnbornTao]

46 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

@UnbornTao when`s Absolute believer awakening?

I'm gonna hammer some belief in ya, your biggest nightmare

What do you mean? It's a real dynamic that is occurring for people. The guy just happens to point to it in real terms.

No need to believe in the fact that you believe. For example, if you are on this forum, you likely believe Leo, to a greater or lesser degree, despite what is said to the contrary. What is this activity?

We may think that belief is merely a thought or opinion that one holds, like "I believe in Santa Claus" or "I believe this person." It's much deeper than that. Our deepest beliefs aren't seen as such, but as 'reality.' 

Edited 22 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Eskilon]

32 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

you likely believe Leo, to a greater or lesser degree, despite what is said to the contrary. What is this activity?

There's no need to believe Leo, belief is useless if one knows and also if one doesn't know. For example do you believe in sunset? Do you see how stupid that question is?

 

32 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

We may think that belief is merely a thought or opinion that one holds, like "I believe in Santa Claus." It's much deeper than that.

Thoughts and opinios are not "merely", it's one sense of self. 

Please explain what you mean by deeper than that.

Edited 22 hours ago by Eskilon

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Eskilon said:

There's no need to believe Leo, belief is useless if one knows and also if one doesn't know. For example do you believe in sunset? Do you see how stupid that question is?

 

Thoughts and opinios are not "merely", it's one sense of self. 

Please explain what you mean by deeper than that.

This way of thinking sounds right in theory, but then, what do people do?

It's also precisely what is deemed a kind of adolescent and performative resistance in the name of self-reliance. Recognizing this tendency is different from reacting against this childish impulse with more of the same.

Observe the real source of the conviction. I propose that there's a basic doubt behind it that is bringing such apparent certainty to the fore, not unlike religious people willing to die for their preferred dogma. Why?

You likely recognize that it - idea, notion, view, perspective, mode of thinking, etc. - was adopted from the outside, and our inability to recognize the depth of belief is part of this dynamic.

Forget about belief for a moment. What do you take to be true? And how much of that is founded on "personal experience"? (This would have to exclude any form of external filter or knowledge.)

Edited 20 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Eskilon]

34 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

For example, observe the real source of the assertiveness and conviction. I propose that there's doubt and uncertainty behind it that are bringing such apparent certainty to the fore, not unlike religious people willing to die for their preferred dogma. Why?

One can be assertive and have conviction and still be true, like the moment of awakening in a lucid dream -- certainty is a thing. Granted there are deluded people who have conviction and are full of shit. But that's not all and you shouldn't infer that those who are assertive are deluded.

 

34 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

You likely recognize that it - idea, notion, view, perspective, mode of thinking, etc. - was adopted from the outside, and this is an important aspect of what's being pointed at. Our inability to recognize the depth of belief is part of this dynamic.

Outside where? Where's outside?

You can use a thorn to remove a thorn.

34 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

As an exercise, forget about belief for a moment. What do you take to be true? And how much of that is experienced or based on experience? (This excludes any form of external filter or knowledge.)

The only true thing for sure is that I am having an experience right now.

And the other serious and certain thing might be Death.

Everything else is up for grabs.

Edited 21 hours ago by Eskilon

[UnbornTao]

18 hours ago, Eskilon said:

One can be assertive and have conviction and still be true, like the moment of awakening in a lucid dream -- certainty is a thing. Granted there are deluded people who have conviction and are full of shit. But that's not all and you shouldn't infer that those who are assertive are deluded.

 

Outside where? Where's outside?

You can use a thorn to remove a thorn.

The only true thing for sure is that I am having an experience right now.

And the other serious and certain thing might be Death.

Everything else is up for grabs.

OK, thanks for sharing.