Thoughts on Experience

[Mellowmarsh]

2 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I don't understand how the stuff you said about "knower and known" is a proof that "thoughtless experience" is impossible.

Okay thanks.
Because how can oneness, this united knower and known, as one thing only, possibly know itself?

 

[James123]

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

Yes, you do.

If your thinking isn't self-reflective and you find understanding the underlying processes difficult, perhaps it might be better for you not to think.

Mind thinks, not me. Therefore, it becomes quite inevatibly. Body and mind has its own destiny. Therefore, work accordingly.

[Nemra]

1 minute ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Okay thanks.
Because how can oneness, this united knower and known, as one thing only, possibly know itself?

I don't know.

Isn't knowing possible? Haven't you known something?

However, the above is another matter.

When you try not to think, you will have a thoughtless experience.

[Nemra]

10 minutes ago, James123 said:

Mind thinks, not me.

Then how do you know that thinking happens?

Isn't that your mind? If that mind isn't yours, how do you know about it?

[Ziran]

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

Why would it be impossible?

Is "it" an event or an experience?

[Mellowmarsh]

6 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I don't know.

Isn't knowing possible? Haven't you known something?

However, the above is another matter.

When you try not to think, you will have a thoughtless experience.

The concept I is known, yes, that’s the knowing. It’s a known mental construction of knowledge, of a thinking mind.

But what is the experience of a “thoughtless experience” ? If you say nothing. Then that’s what I meant by saying the I is known, and that which is known knows nothing. 

Knowing nothing is not an experience, because there’s no thought present to acknowledge the experience happened.

We are referring to knowledge here, to thought, are we not?

 

 

 

 

[Ziran]

9 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

what is the experience of a “thoughtless experience” ?

Page 1302:  The Encyclopedia of Taoism Vol2:  m–z

"ziran"

自然

“so of its own”; spontaneous, spontaneity

As an adjective, the term ziran means “spontaneous,” “natural,” “so of its own,” “so of itself.” As a noun, it denotes spontaneity, naturalness, the things as they are. It is a synonym of zizai 自在 (self-existent) and ziyou 自有 (self-produced), and is very close in meaning to zide 自得 (self-attaining) and ziwei 自為 (working by itself, doing spontaneously).

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Ziran

[Mellowmarsh]

17 minutes ago, Ziran said:

Page 1302:  The Encyclopedia of Taoism Vol2:  m–z

"ziran"

自然

“so of its own”; spontaneous, spontaneity

As an adjective, the term ziran means “spontaneous,” “natural,” “so of its own,” “so of itself.” As a noun, it denotes spontaneity, naturalness, the things as they are. It is a synonym of zizai 自在 (self-existent) and ziyou 自有 (self-produced), and is very close in meaning to zide 自得 (self-attaining) and ziwei 自為 (working by itself, doing spontaneously).

 

Describe your own “thoughtless experience” 

 

[Nemra]

53 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

The concept I is known, yes, that’s the knowing. It’s a known mental construction of knowledge, of a thinking mind.

I agree that the self can be built on top of constructions.

But if you can know that something is a construction, then knowing itself would be beyond constructions.

53 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

But what is the experience of a “thoughtless experience” ? If you say nothing. Then that’s what I meant by saying the I is known, and that which is known knows nothing.

I don't know that when you never think, you would eventually be conscious of nothing. Maybe.

However, thoughts can point to those things. We are using our thoughts now.

53 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Knowing nothing is not an experience, because there’s no thought present to acknowledge the experience happened.

If it's not experience, then the "nothing" never happened. So, you can't even say that you know what nothing is.

I don't agree that thoughtlessness necessarily is equal to "nothing".

Edited 9 hours ago by Nemra

[James123]

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

Then how do you know that thinking happens?

Isn't that your mind? If that mind isn't yours, how do you know about it?

Of course it is mind. Mind thinks, hand writes, leg walks. So where the fuck are you? 

[Nemra]

14 minutes ago, James123 said:

Of course it is mind. Mind thinks, hand writes, leg walks. So where the fuck are you? 

Aren't you thinking, writing and walking?

[James123]

37 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Aren't you thinking, writing and walking?

Body does. Find yourself in the body. Find it. And see you are just accumulation of thoughts, meanwhile there is nothing there. Not even.

[Ramasta9]

 

[Nemra]

1 minute ago, James123 said:

Body does. Find yourself in the body. Find it. And see you are just accumulation of thoughts, meanwhile there is nothing there. Not even.

Why, in the first place, were you able to identify with thoughts? Think about it.

[James123]

1 minute ago, Nemra said:

Why, in the first place, were you able to identify with thoughts? Think about it.

Actually you never do. Ones realization happens after that in first place, you, thoughts, last place, in and out are all just thoughts, that's all. 

[Nemra]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

Actually you never do. Ones realization happens after that in first place, you, thoughts, last place, in and out are all just thoughts, that's all. 

You are diverging from your main disagreement with me, which is the following:

19 hours ago, James123 said:

@Nemra experience is a form of thought.

Let's not pointlessly argue.

And frankly, your thoughts are too choppy, which confuses me.

[Mellowmarsh]

4 hours ago, Nemra said:

12 hours ago, James123 said:

If you don't think, what will be experience?

Thoughtless experience.

How so?

When there’s no thinker to say “I am not thinking” ? 

[Mellowmarsh]

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

I agree that the self can be built on top of constructions.

But if you can know that something is a construction, then knowing itself would be beyond constructions.

I don't know that when you never think, you would eventually be conscious of nothing. Maybe.

However, thoughts can point to those things. We are using our thoughts now.

If it's not experience, then the "nothing" never happened. So, you can't even say that you know what nothing is.

I don't agree that thoughtlessness necessarily is equal to "nothing".

Knowing arises and falls in conjunction together in the instant knowing arises, and is known in this conception.

If thoughtless experience is not equal to nothing, then it must be something, so what is it, and can you describe your own thoughtless experience , and what it is, in a way that it is not equal to nothing?

 

 

[Nemra]

3 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

How so?

When there’s no thinker to say “I am not thinking” ? 

You don't have to walk to be the walker.

Likewise, you can be thoughtless while being the thinker, even though you are not thinking.

[Mellowmarsh]

1 minute ago, Nemra said:

You don't have to walk to be the walker.

Likewise, you can be thoughtless while being the thinker, even though you are not thinking.

Again, this is about knowledge and knowing.

A tree is known to exist, as a human mental construct, but does the actual tree in and of itself know it exists, can the actual tree tell itself “ I am a tree” ?