The ideological roots of the idea of 'toxic masculinity'.

[mr_engineer]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@mr_engineer I think you need to ground himself in real life experience and make sure you aren't bogged down in cognitive bias + endless social media. Nothing is so reductive and simple. 

Ah, the 'nothing is so simple' argument. Yes, individuals are complicated. But, it is not that hard to notice patterns in how collectives behave! 

The point of this argument is to create an image of 'complication', that 'we're all very complicated, don't try to make sense of what we're doing, don't scrutinize what we're doing'. I don't know if you think we're dumb enough to not see it, or whether you are. And, as far as the 'social media' argument goes, whatever happens on social media has real-life consequences. Real people get cancelled because of what happens on social media. 

I have never seen this lecture of 'get off social media, it could be biasing your thinking' be given to a feminist. Never. Interesting, isn't it?! 

Edited Wednesday at 02:23 AM by mr_engineer

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@mr_engineer just some advice - you are free to take it or leave it.

Wanting to give you some relief from negativity.

Edited Wednesday at 02:39 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[mr_engineer]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@mr_engineer just some advice - you are free to take it or leave it.

Wanting to give you some relief from negativity.

And what about the negativity against men? What's being done about that? Take yourselves, for example. I have never seen you mods police anyone for spreading negativity against men. When someone spreads negativity against men, I've never seen them being asked who hurt them, or what is it that they're generalizing to all men. (In fact, when I decided to take the initiative on this, I got warned for it lol) This means, that the general sentiment towards men is not positive, right? 

Whenever someone makes blanket negative statements about men, that's man-hate. Whether it's about 'toxic masculinity' or about how 'all men are complicit in the patriarchy' or anything else, it's very important that we ask them to not generalize. Otherwise, we're complicit in the spreading of man-hate. 

What's happening, though, is very different. When negativity against men gets spread in the MeToo movement and there's a counter-movement to that saying 'not all men', feminists hate it! They do not want to say that it's not all men. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

12 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

And what about the negativity against men? What's being done about that? Take yourselves, for example. I have never seen you mods police anyone for spreading negativity against men. When someone spreads negativity against men, I've never seen them being asked who hurt them, or what is it that they're generalizing to all men. (In fact, when I decided to take the initiative on this, I got warned for it lol) This means, that the general sentiment towards men is not positive, right? 

Whenever someone makes blanket negative statements about men, that's man-hate. Whether it's about 'toxic masculinity' or about how 'all men are complicit in the patriarchy' or anything else, it's very important that we ask them to not generalize. Otherwise, we're complicit in the spreading of man-hate. 

What's happening, though, is very different. When negativity against men gets spread in the MeToo movement and there's a counter-movement to that saying 'not all men', feminists hate it! They do not want to say that it's not all men. 

Yep. I have called out negativity toward men here. 

In addition, you aren't privy to warnings that are issued for things like this. Just because you do not see it, does not mean it is not happening. Mods do not often publicly call things out. PM's, warnings, points and timeouts are issued for these sorts of things all the time. In this case you are simply ignorant.

The sort of cognitive bias and reductive thinking you display is something to seriously think about though. These types of thinking are never in isolation. We don't tend to think in a particular way about a particular thing. It is usually applied throughout our thought processes. So be wary of that. You will be blind-sighting yourself in other areas of your thinking and meaning making.

[mr_engineer]

@Natasha Tori Maru Next time, please make a couple of these instances public so that we know that we're safe here. 

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@mr_engineer  👍

I even think the term 'toxic masculinity' is used and twisted into misandry by many women. It is not isolated to feminists, although it is more likely to show up in these circles.

Toxic masculinity tends to describe a certain set of behaviours that can turn negative - whereas misandry is an attitude toward men in general. There's a legit pattern in certain circles of women that have this negative attitude (which is misandry) and try to repackage it as 'toxic masculinity'. This can really lead to a whole host of issues with men feeling like it is not okay to be masculine at all. Misandry sometimes shows up alongside or within spaces that use feminist language - and this is where it is easy to think feminism is the issue. It is just more often we see the two things manifesting at the same time.

The swing toward feminism doesn't mean sexism toward men doesn't exist, doesn't happen. And just because men have afforded more privilege due to the structure of society does not mean they have not suffered from the structure in place by the elites. 

Misandry can feel very very justified under the cloak of feminism. The issue is you get people who generalise all men, justify their hostility and treat men or 'the patriarchy' as this giant monolith instead of individuals.

I stand for women as well. But I am very vocal about calling out both sexes on their shit.

And I do find it tends to land a bit better from women to woman. When a man tries to push against sexism I see a lot more resistance. Sad.

[Lila9]

Misandry is much more rare and not a real threat. Unlike misogynists, misandrists avoid men. They don’t go and abuse them. Misogynists, on the other hand, tend to bother women, whether through pickup, dating, marriage or other means, they always seek to use women. 

Also, men with fragile egos who see equality with women as a threat will see any attempt by women to call misogyny out as misandry.

If I see misogyny, which is not very rare here, and I’m in the perfect mood to address it, I will address it. I don’t give a fuck about warnings. 

I know this forum has a pro-male bias because Leo, like the average dude, has covert misogyny, and so do many of the mods here.

Actually, I remember at least two of the former mods here being very misogynistic. It’s so weird that it was so tolerated.

It’s funny that hatred of women is so tolerated among “spiritual” people.

Truth is very important here. It is the highest value as soon as it caresses the ego, as long as it helps to maintain the facade of a spiritual Sigma male lost in the woods in pursuit of Truth (but only after jerking off on a porn of underaged women of course) 🫩

 

[mr_engineer]

@Lila9 'Our problems are real problems, your problems are not real problems'. Look, you don't need to go around invalidating other people's lived experiences. Just talk about your experiences, just talk about who hurt you. 

 

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

Just give it a handful more years, maybe 20 at most if we wanna REALLY push it. And these scarcity driven topics will no longer be relevant. Then the feminists can enjoy their soys lmfao. Or we'll all be gonezo, honestly I'm fine with either

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Lila9 You might have good intentions here - but it is wrong to minimise the suffering of others by comparison. There are evils on both sides. Just because, in your perspective, misogyny is more damaging, does NOT mean that men do not suffer with the same depth and pain as women. You can NEVER compare suffering in this way. I feel it is very wrong to reduce and invalidate pain. It ISN'T okay to dismiss male directed harm.

In addition your wording is skewing your intent 'Misogynists... always seek to use women'. This is broadly generalising. It shifts from describing a subset of behaviour to implying something is inherent and consistent. This may not be your intent - but it IS in the language you chose to use.

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Leo, like the average dude, has covert misogyny,

'Average dude' implies misogyny is the norm for men. Another sweeping claim about an entire gender.

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It’s funny that hatred of women is so tolerated among “spiritual” people.

While this isn't exclusively about men, in this context it does move towards associating male-dominated spaces with hypocrisy and hostility.

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spiritual Sigma male lost in the woods in pursuit of Truth (but only after jerking off on a porn of underaged women of course)

Do not associate men with predatory or illegal sexual behaviour in this harmful, generalised way. Even though this is framed as satire or insult, it is a strong defamatory generalization and is showing a lot of hostility.

The way you phrase your arguments, if you want to really engage in a dialogue without polarizing an entire gender against you, is to stop using absolutes, mind-reading, and group wide framing that is turning criticism of behaviour into condemnation of men as a category. You are weakening your own argument by doing this. I think you want to engage with people in a reflective manner - but you are simply going to trigger defensiveness.

I have suffered physically and mentally at the hands of men. I have TBI and was put in hospital. But this was just one dude who did this. Men didn't do this.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Lila9]

@Natasha Tori Maru 

No, I don’t minimize men’s suffering.
But men’s suffering caused by women and women’s suffering caused by men is not equal. There is a lot of data backing this. Equalizing it is a distortion of the truth to make men feel better.
When I say men do X or Y, I don’t mean every individual man, I mean enough men are doing it for it to be a systemic issue.
And no, I am not going to stay quiet because of it. 

People often try to silence women so they will be more convenient. I don’t want to be convenient, especially to people who don't have my best interest in their hearts. 

If a man says predatory and misogynistic things, he needs to be aware of it.

I am actually doing them a favor because I am putting a mirror in front of them. if they are conscious this gives them the opportunity to reflect and to reevaluate their views of women, especially since many of them consume toxic manosphere ideologies.

24 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I have suffered physically and mentally at the hands of men. I have TBI and was put in hospital. But this was just one dude who did this. Men didn't do this.

I am really sorry Natasha, bless your heart.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Lila9 I am pointing out your language is shooting you in the foot.

Quote

But men’s suffering caused by women and women’s suffering caused by men is not equal. There is a lot of data backing this.

There's data showing the patterns aren't symmetrical. The data simply shows the distribution and expression of harm differ. It doesn't say one gender's pain matter more. It doesn't say one genders suffering is greater. Suffering isn't just one narrow thing. In this case, if you want to make a more coherent statement, you will need to define suffering and how you are measuring it. Which is a hard philosophy question with no simple answer. Philosophy of measurement and ethics.

 

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Lila9 I am pointing out your language is shooting you in the foot.

There's data showing the patterns aren't symmetrical. The data simply shows the distribution and expression of harm differ. It doesn't say one gender's pain matter more. It doesn't say one genders suffering is greater. Suffering isn't just one narrow thing. In this case, if you want to make a more coherent statement, you will need to define suffering and how you are measuring it. Which is a hard philosophy question with no simple answer. Philosophy of measurement and ethics.

 

Where did I write that one gender’s pain matters more?
I wrote that women are hurt by men statistically more than the opposite.
My statement is coherent enough. I don’t need assistance. If I wanted help with writing my post, I would have asked.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Sure, do as you will. But you are communicating in an attempt to try to get something across. You can choose to disregard advice. Just as I can choose to dispense.

By stating :

Quote

But men’s suffering caused by women and women’s suffering caused by men is not equal. 

It implies men suffer less, even if you did not explicitly state it. 'Not equal' is setting up a comparison. Perhaps it wasn't intended to come across this way.

Quote

When I say men do X or Y, I don’t mean every individual man, I mean enough men are doing it for it to be a systemic issue.

It is good to clear this up. Your previous wording was doing something else.

Quote

And no, I am not going to stay quiet because of it.

No one said to be quiet? This is an open forum for discussion.

[Lila9]

11 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You can choose to disregard advice.

I choose to disregard it. 

11 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

It implies men suffer less, even if you did not explicitly state it. 'Not equal' is setting up a comparison. Perhaps it wasn't intended to come across this way.

This is your understanding, not my intention.

11 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

It is good to clear this up. Your previous wording was doing something else.

It was coherent enough. Those who want to understand me with a good faith, will often do. 

13 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

No one said to be quiet? This is an open forum for discussion.

Ok.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Lila9 You are still dodging responsibility around your wording. 

But I can see your mind is made up and you are quite attached to your mode of being.

Godspeed.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Lila9]

@Natasha Tori Maru It’s funny that you try to educate me as if you have some authority over me and as if I owe you any discipline.

We are adults, don't agree with my opinion? That’s okay. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

6 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

@Natasha Tori Maru It’s funny that you try to educate me as if you have some authority over me and as if I owe you any discipline.

We are adults, don't agree with my opinion? That’s okay. 

Thing is - I do agree with a lot of your opinion (not all, but a lot). I disagree with wording it in a way that generalises all men with absolutes, and then you claiming that if someone has good faith they will 'know what you mean'. Which is the only reason I point out you have to take responsibility around using correct phrasing and terminology - if you want to open up a good natured dialogue rather than a shut-down session.

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Xonas Pitfall]

Women were very much at the mercy of men who financially supported the family. When you lose power, and someone has that much control over you, it’s easy to imagine how things can become abusive and toxic in a relationship or marriage. The laws used to be much worse, too, and you can still see horrible laws in some parts of the world, such as marrying off girls at 10-12, a lack of access to education, and extreme restrictions on freedom. There are even places where older men genuinely cry for and protest against higher ages of consent. On top of that, we still have pedophilia and sex trafficking rings. So to deny that toxic masculinity doesn't exist, or to claim it is only a reaction to feminism, is unreasonable. Toxic masculinity existed long before women had any real say. A lot of feminism emerged as a reaction to prevent these kinds of horrific outcomes and to give women more power and autonomy.

I just wish people understood that when someone identifies with a certain idea, it doesn’t mean they embody the most extreme version of it. You can absolutely appreciate men who are kind, honorable, and genuine, while also not wanting to return to a time where women had to marry young, have children early, and depend entirely on one person for survival or derive all their value from that role.

The same applies to men. You can value traditionally feminine traits in women without falling into toxic “red pill” ideologies that glorify power imbalances or assume feminism is simply about making men weaker or useless.

People need to stop over-polarizing these issues, because doing so only deepens bias and fuels bitterness about society. There are genuinely good men and women out there, and there are also many who are trying to do better. This really shouldn't be that outrageous to say.

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Thing is - I do agree with a lot of your opinion (not all, but a lot). I disagree with wording it in a way that generalises all men with absolutes, and then you claiming that if someone has good faith they will 'know what you mean'. Which is the only reason I point out you have to take responsibility around using correct phrasing and words if you want to open up a good natured dialogue rather than a shut-down session.

I already explained that I don’t actually refer to all men when I talk about predatory behavior.

Those who care to understand me are not triggered.

If I say it to a secure man, he doesn’t give a shit and may even agree.

Men know how predatory other men are. I’ve heard it from men themselves.

I also say that humans don’t care enough about animals, but that doesn’t mean I’m referring to every single human.

Of course, there are humans who do care about animals.

But there are enough humans who don’t care to make it a systemic issue.

If someone says that humans don’t care about animals, I wouldn’t get triggered, because I know that humans as a collective don’t care enough, even though I personally care about them to a large extent.

I also never said that men are inherently bad or evil. I always say that they are socialized that way. I am not some bioessentialist who believes that men are a lost cause due to biology.
I know they were socialized in a certain way, and I know that they can do better.

I expect them to take responsibility and do better. This is actually a good thing.