The ideological roots of the idea of 'toxic masculinity'.

[mr_engineer]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@mr_engineer I think you need to ground himself in real life experience and make sure you aren't bogged down in cognitive bias + endless social media. Nothing is so reductive and simple. 

Ah, the 'nothing is so simple' argument. Yes, individuals are complicated. But, it is not that hard to notice patterns in how collectives behave! 

The point of this argument is to create an image of 'complication', that 'we're all very complicated, don't try to make sense of what we're doing, don't scrutinize what we're doing'. I don't know if you think we're dumb enough to not see it, or whether you are. And, as far as the 'social media' argument goes, whatever happens on social media has real-life consequences. Real people get cancelled because of what happens on social media. 

I have never seen this lecture of 'get off social media, it could be biasing your thinking' be given to a feminist. Never. Interesting, isn't it?! 

Edited yesterday at 02:23 AM by mr_engineer

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@mr_engineer just some advice - you are free to take it or leave it.

Wanting to give you some relief from negativity.

Edited yesterday at 02:39 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[mr_engineer]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@mr_engineer just some advice - you are free to take it or leave it.

Wanting to give you some relief from negativity.

And what about the negativity against men? What's being done about that? Take yourselves, for example. I have never seen you mods police anyone for spreading negativity against men. When someone spreads negativity against men, I've never seen them being asked who hurt them, or what is it that they're generalizing to all men. (In fact, when I decided to take the initiative on this, I got warned for it lol) This means, that the general sentiment towards men is not positive, right? 

Whenever someone makes blanket negative statements about men, that's man-hate. Whether it's about 'toxic masculinity' or about how 'all men are complicit in the patriarchy' or anything else, it's very important that we ask them to not generalize. Otherwise, we're complicit in the spreading of man-hate. 

What's happening, though, is very different. When negativity against men gets spread in the MeToo movement and there's a counter-movement to that saying 'not all men', feminists hate it! They do not want to say that it's not all men. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

12 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

And what about the negativity against men? What's being done about that? Take yourselves, for example. I have never seen you mods police anyone for spreading negativity against men. When someone spreads negativity against men, I've never seen them being asked who hurt them, or what is it that they're generalizing to all men. (In fact, when I decided to take the initiative on this, I got warned for it lol) This means, that the general sentiment towards men is not positive, right? 

Whenever someone makes blanket negative statements about men, that's man-hate. Whether it's about 'toxic masculinity' or about how 'all men are complicit in the patriarchy' or anything else, it's very important that we ask them to not generalize. Otherwise, we're complicit in the spreading of man-hate. 

What's happening, though, is very different. When negativity against men gets spread in the MeToo movement and there's a counter-movement to that saying 'not all men', feminists hate it! They do not want to say that it's not all men. 

Yep. I have called out negativity toward men here. 

In addition, you aren't privy to warnings that are issued for things like this. Just because you do not see it, does not mean it is not happening. Mods do not often publicly call things out. PM's, warnings, points and timeouts are issued for these sorts of things all the time. In this case you are simply ignorant.

The sort of cognitive bias and reductive thinking you display is something to seriously think about though. These types of thinking are never in isolation. We don't tend to think in a particular way about a particular thing. It is usually applied throughout our thought processes. So be wary of that. You will be blind-sighting yourself in other areas of your thinking and meaning making.

[mr_engineer]

@Natasha Tori Maru Next time, please make a couple of these instances public so that we know that we're safe here. 

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@mr_engineer  👍

I even think the term 'toxic masculinity' is used and twisted into misandry by many women. It is not isolated to feminists, although it is more likely to show up in these circles.

Toxic masculinity tends to describe a certain set of behaviours that can turn negative - whereas misandry is an attitude toward men in general. There's a legit pattern in certain circles of women that have this negative attitude (which is misandry) and try to repackage it as 'toxic masculinity'. This can really lead to a whole host of issues with men feeling like it is not okay to be masculine at all. Misandry sometimes shows up alongside or within spaces that use feminist language - and this is where it is easy to think feminism is the issue. It is just more often we see the two things manifesting at the same time.

The swing toward feminism doesn't mean sexism toward men doesn't exist, doesn't happen. And just because men have afforded more privilege due to the structure of society does not mean they have not suffered from the structure in place by the elites. 

Misandry can feel very very justified under the cloak of feminism. The issue is you get people who generalise all men, justify their hostility and treat men or 'the patriarchy' as this giant monolith instead of individuals.

I stand for women as well. But I am very vocal about calling out both sexes on their shit.

And I do find it tends to land a bit better from women to woman. When a man tries to push against sexism I see a lot more resistance. Sad.

[Lila9]

Misandry is much more rare and not a real threat. Unlike misogynists, misandrists avoid men. They don’t go and abuse them. Misogynists, on the other hand, tend to bother women, whether through pickup, dating, marriage or other means, they always seek to use women. 

Also, men with fragile egos who see equality with women as a threat will see any attempt by women to call misogyny out as misandry.

If I see misogyny, which is not very rare here, and I’m in the perfect mood to address it, I will address it. I don’t give a fuck about warnings. 

I know this forum has a pro-male bias because Leo, like the average dude, has covert misogyny, and so do many of the mods here.

Actually, I remember at least two of the former mods here being very misogynistic. It’s so weird that it was so tolerated.

It’s funny that hatred of women is so tolerated among “spiritual” people.

Truth is very important here. It is the highest value as soon as it caresses the ego, as long as it helps to maintain the facade of a spiritual Sigma male lost in the woods in pursuit of Truth (but only after jerking off on a porn of underaged women of course) 🫩

 

[mr_engineer]

@Lila9 'Our problems are real problems, your problems are not real problems'. Look, you don't need to go around invalidating other people's lived experiences. Just talk about your experiences, just talk about who hurt you. 

 

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

Just give it a handful more years, maybe 20 at most if we wanna REALLY push it. And these scarcity driven topics will no longer be relevant. Then the feminists can enjoy their soys lmfao. Or we'll all be gonezo, honestly I'm fine with either

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Lila9 You might have good intentions here - but it is wrong to minimise the suffering of others by comparison. There are evils on both sides. Just because, in your perspective, misogyny is more damaging, does NOT mean that men do not suffer with the same depth and pain as women. You can NEVER compare suffering in this way. I feel it is very wrong to reduce and invalidate pain. It ISN'T okay to dismiss male directed harm.

In addition your wording is skewing your intent 'Misogynists... always seek to use women'. This is broadly generalising. It shifts from describing a subset of behaviour to implying something is inherent and consistent. This may not be your intent - but it IS in the language you chose to use.

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Leo, like the average dude, has covert misogyny,

'Average dude' implies misogyny is the norm for men. Another sweeping claim about an entire gender.

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It’s funny that hatred of women is so tolerated among “spiritual” people.

While this isn't exclusively about men, in this context it does move towards associating male-dominated spaces with hypocrisy and hostility.

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spiritual Sigma male lost in the woods in pursuit of Truth (but only after jerking off on a porn of underaged women of course)

Do not associate men with predatory or illegal sexual behaviour in this harmful, generalised way. Even though this is framed as satire or insult, it is a strong defamatory generalization and is showing a lot of hostility.

The way you phrase your arguments, if you want to really engage in a dialogue without polarizing an entire gender against you, is to stop using absolutes, mind-reading, and group wide framing that is turning criticism of behaviour into condemnation of men as a category. You are weakening your own argument by doing this. I think you want to engage with people in a reflective manner - but you are simply going to trigger defensiveness.

I have suffered physically and mentally at the hands of men. I have TBI and was put in hospital. But this was just one dude who did this. Men didn't do this.

Edited 12 minutes ago by Natasha Tori Maru